Possible Lawsuit for Josh

[Snarkylark]

If he truly believes that "Jesus saves" people from their "transgressions" and makes a sinner into a "new creature", he might believe that Josh will never do it again--or even better does not even have a desire to do it again. Cos you know Jesus fixes that stuff up for people if they only trust him.

Then there is the other issue that someone else brought up. He simply didn't know how many victims there were and the extent of the molestation. After all, it was just some "mild, inappropriate touching".

For all we know, Anna's father has told her to come home and bring the kids, but Anna has said :"No, Dad. Josh is my headship now. My place is with him". OR maybe Anna has asked to come home and her father has said: "No, Anna, Josh is your headship now. Your place is with him". I would not be surprised if either of these scenarios happened.

In my opinion, Anna is in a really difficult spot because, like most of the kids, she does not have anywhere to go. Right now Anna has a choice between Josh and her father and maybe her father has told her to stay with Josh, or maybe life is better with Josh than with her father. They are afraid of the outside world. People in these types of groups can have a fear that everyone outside their religion is actually in league with Satan. Gothard followers can be truly frightened about getting out from under the umbrella of authority because they expect to have bad things happen to them if they leave. They could even lose their salvation if they reject God's plan for them.

Maybe we need to set up a safe house for Jinger to flee to if she decides she needs to. (I am being silly, but it is no joke that there are constraints on any of them breaking away).

And not only that but Anna has no job, no education, and no way to support herself and those 4 children. She truly is trapped between a rock and a hard place. She also is probably not aware of programs that could help her. And I don't know that they belong to a church that would be sympathetic and help her out. If she truly knew the extent of what happened to her sisters in law then she bears some of the blame for her current situation. But I don't think she knew the extent of it.

[Nic]

A lot of talk about how informed Anna was about Josh's criminal activities.

I wonder how much the babysitter knew. If I remember the interview correctly, they called the babysitter's family and said guess what happened while you were sleeping. The Duggars did the basic same downplaying of it-- the babysitter hadn't noticed, the babysitter forgave. Did the babysitter know that Joshie had been doing this repeatedly?

What if the babysitter was watching this interview on Fox and/or read the police report and realize that Josh had this pattern of behavior, that the Duggars knew about, but still had her come over and babysit?

[NeverQuivered]

I have no idea. I'm just brainstorming who all knew about this and who could be asked to speak to it. And there's never a guarantee anyone on the witness stand is telling the truth...though hopefully they would in this case.

I should think they'd do what they can to cover it up, though how successful they'd be is far beyond my pay grade!

[isarhenne]

I will be pessimistic about this, sorry.

Noone will get sued or concivted of their crimes in this case. JB has too much power, too many connections...he got the report destroyed just like that, remember, plus he probably got Josh the job in DC!

although he is uneducated and not very sympathetic he has so much power. I'm sensing some cultish/secret society stuff going on, probably over several generations (grandma Duggar?)...sorry, for going there, it's just a guess.

JB is a very shady guy. I have the feeling he does a lot of half legal / half illigal things, or outright illegal things with the help of his many friends in church and politics.

IMO JB and Michelle should be charged/in prison or whatever, not Josh. Josh got his punishment already, being disgraced, loosing his job. He has 4 small children. What would Anna do without him?

[NeverQuivered]

Sorry, I tried to reply to a quoted post from my iPad while lying in bed and I fucked it up. Here's the point I'm trying to make:

Keep in mind that depositions occur in civil cases and the questions have a wide scope because a judge often is not sitting in on these, although they are videotaped and opposing council can object to a line of questioning and the judge can later strike it from the record. The deposed still has to answer and they are under oath. This can unearth a whole bag of Duggar worms.

[halcionne]

Speculating about the identity of the fifth victim isn't allowed here.

[Mrs Ms]

I don't really feel bad for Anna... she married the guy knowing what he did. (supposedly)

If she really knew the whole truth upfront, I can't believe she married him.

But I do feel CURRENTLY sorry for her. All this came out when she was 7 months pregnant and she is now 8 days out from her due date. As someone with a wonderful partner - who actually helps me co-parent our child - who is due in 4 days time, I feel SOOO bad for Anna. At this stage every time she gets upset, the baby does too. It sucks. A lot! Pregnancy is doing a number on my moods this time with no outside stress and hormones amplify everything by about 100. I don't want to even imagine what she is going through right now.

In 3 months time, I won't have any sympathy for her, but at the moment, oh boy!

[Mrs Ms]

I loathe Anna's parents. They put their desire to marry into a famous family above their daughters/granddaughters safety and future. It's one thing if your daughter chooses to marry a loser but in this case the dad had all the power and is the one who made it happen! Would even one person here encourage tjeir daughter to marry someone who had molested kids?? Ugh

Add in Shrader, the Pecan-thief and how they treated Daniel and Suze when they first left the fold and I will NEVER understand the love many people here often state(d) for these sorry excuses of parents.

Aw shucks isn't what comes to my mind when evaluating the spouses they chose for their offspring.

[fraurosena]

Wildly speculating here, but...

Another reason the 5th victim could want to sue is that because everything is out in the open now, her purity has come into question. Maybe a courtship fell through because of it, or maybe her prospects of finding a spouse have been curtailed... Wouldn't that count as fallout only now becoming evident, which could be construed as being delayed effects of the abuse, so now there is a reason to sue? :shrug:

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Exactly how much did Anna and her family hear about the things Josh did? How much detail did they hear? Were they so impressed with being associated with the Duggar brand that they didn't ask questions?

I don't know anything about Anna's family, but I DO know that if Anna's parents should now be saying "We failed you by not asking for more detail and specifics, Anna. If we'd known then what we know now, there is no way we would have let him court you, much less marry you.

"Now the truth is out, though, you need to come home. You need to come home to have the baby, and you need to come home, period. He's a child molester. You have children. We've seen him interact with the kids and believe he genuinely loves them, but that doesn't mean he will never be inappropriate with any of them; there are no guarantees. And Anna, we're not going to leave you and our grandchildren in that position. No child molester has the right to a headship.

"No court in the land would give him unsupervised visitation rights with them; he's given that right away by abusing other youngsters. You need to get the kids away from him and come home to us. And we need to apologize; we were seduced by what seemed like the Duggar glamor, and we didn't ask enough questions. We've learned our lesson, and we'll do anything we can to help you raise your children and protect those children from abuse."

But FORGIVENESS!!!!! And it was so mild, none was aware, it practically didn't really happen. :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead:

[FloraKitty35]

Add in Shrader, the Pecan-thief and how they treated Daniel and Suze when they first left the fold and I will NEVER understand the love many people here often state(d) for these sorry excuses of parents.

Aw shucks isn't what comes to my mind when evaluating the spouses they chose for their offspring.

Who would have thought that Pecan Thief was the pick of son in laws.

[nokidsmom]

I have a bit of sympathy for Anna. In a way, I think she along with her parents were manipulated by the Duggars. But I still don't have a lot of sympathy for especially she really did know and never considered the fact that the stuff could get out.

When it comes to financial future of Josh, Anna, and the four kids, they will be fine for awhile. But there is probably worries right now about jobs and future earnings. If TLC gives the Duggars another season, I doubt Josh, Anna, and the M kids will be on the show. Josh dropped speaking gigs after the scandal broke. I think Anna did enjoy the perks that came along with the show. It was evident on social media. In a way, I feel bad for Mackynzie. Again, if the show continues without Josh and his family, they will have to explain it to Mackyznie about why the crew isn't coming around or they would to explain or not tell her that the crew is still filming the rest of the family.

Re: the bold, this is how I feel about Anna and her family getting full disclosure on Josh's molestation. Given how J'chelle and JB attempted to spin things during the Kelly interview, I highly suspect JB would have done same in disclosing to Pa Keller and Anna. Between Anna's total naivete, the belief in all sins being forgiven, plus Pa Keller doesn't strike me as the sharpest knife in drawer, that it would have not been difficult to manipulate them over this issue. And JB would have convinced himself that he was being totally honest with them. The interview showed me that he needs to spin and manipulate the issue and yet is convinced that he's telling the actual truth. So I have serious doubts that Anna and her dad knew the full extent of things but enough may have been said that would have given a less sheltered young woman pause at the very least. It's hard to know but I don't think the whole truth as it really happened, meaning no spin or manipulating, was disclosed.

[defraudedbychipendales]

"From Josh:

Twelve years ago, as a young teenager I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely sorry and deeply regret. I hurt others, including my family and close friends. I confessed this to my parents who took several steps to help me address the situation. We spoke with the authorities where I confessed my wrongdoing and my parents arranged for me and those affected by my actions to receive counseling. I understood that if I continued down this wrong road that I would end up ruining my life. I sought forgiveness from those I had wronged and asked Christ to forgive me and come into my life. I would do anything to go back to those teen years and take different actions. In my life today, I am so very thankful for God’s grace, mercy and redemption."

For everyone who is saying that Josh admitted the molestation, he admitted NOTHING!!! JB&M admitted and Jill and Jessa admitted, but Josh has made only a very vague statement about "inexcusable actions."

[SpoonfulOSugar]

What? Were these minors? If not all you would have to do was show that Josh did not molest Poe, a person who does not exist. I could be wrong, but that sounds crazy and I've never heard of it, so can I ask what your source is?

The case I was referring to was a class action lawsuit against Sovereign Grace Ministries filed in Maryland (amended complaint, May 2013). The plaintiffs (others were named) included Jane Doe, Karen Koe, Karl Koe, Carla Coe, Grace Goe, and Donna Doe (all pseudonyms.) If I did my math correctly, they were not minors at the time of the filing (although one was a very young adult, several were clearly not.)

It's clear in the filings that these are pseudonyms being used. For example, "Grace Goe was born in September 1983 and resides in Virginia. Due to the nature of the lawsuit, she wishes to use the pseudonym Grace Goe to keep her identity confidential."

One source for those documents (it was covered in the media and most information available online) is brentdetwiler.com/class-action-lawsuit/.

If you google "pseudonyms in litigation" a wide variety of scholarly and blog writings describe the standards.

Also: Roe v. Wade is pseudonymous.

[WhiteRun]

I don't entirely trust InTouch with this story. They've been pretty much the first media outlet to break a lot of this news and I wouldn't be surprised if they were trying to milk the Duggars for all they have.

However if it is true ENORMOUS props to Victim 5 for having the guts to sue Josh!

Frankly I do feel sorry for Anna and the kids. Poor M4 will be in the spotlight for all the wrong reasons from the moment shes born.

The more I think about Anna having known about Josh and his past, the more I feel like Anna was brainwashed, partly by the fundie lifestyle and partly by her parents. The Kellers got lucky with Esther and Priscilla getting married but with the bad luck they've had with David and Susanna I think Ma and Pa Keller may of pushed Josh to Anna as her only option at marriage (correct me if I'm wrong. Not entirely sure about the timeline).

Also I hope JB and M are not only pulled deep into this but have the whole damn book case thown at them! How dare they protect Josh after all he did! How dare they accept him back into their home! How dare they speculate to the mental state and well being of a victim they've had nothing to do with for years! I hope victim 5 sues them too for not giving them antiquate protection whilst babysitting.

[Nic]

If she really knew the whole truth upfront, I can't believe she married him.

But I do feel CURRENTLY sorry for her. All this came out when she was 7 months pregnant and she is now 8 days out from her due date. As someone with a wonderful partner - who actually helps me co-parent our child - who is due in 4 days time, I feel SOOO bad for Anna. At this stage every time she gets upset, the baby does too. It sucks. A lot! Pregnancy is doing a number on my moods this time with no outside stress and hormones amplify everything by about 100. I don't want to even imagine what she is going through right now.

In 3 months time, I won't have any sympathy for her, but at the moment, oh boy!

She was what 19? And she really really liked Joshie. And she probably had the development and maturity level of someone much younger. Her parents are saying it was cool, so if your parents who are the one that are supposed to protect you, say it's OK, why would she doubt it?

And though EVERYTHING JB ever says is suspect at best, if molestation is this common in the community, who knows, JB could be thought of as the Gold Standard of how this fucked up people handle it. Maybe some don't even get questionable counseling and mentoring.

I would think wow what slim pickings did Ma & Pa Keller have that they OK'd this. I would have listened to Josh's confession and said that is fabulous that you've made this recovery... from my car window as I was driving my family away. Let some other family roll the dice with all the possible consequences.

[JuicyDuggar]

I don't entirely trust InTouch with this story. They've been pretty much the first media outlet to break a lot of this news and I wouldn't be surprised if they were trying to milk the Duggars for all they have.

However if it is true ENORMOUS props to Victim 5 for having the guts to sue Josh!

Frankly I do feel sorry for Anna and the kids. Poor M4 will be in the spotlight for all the wrong reasons from the moment shes born.

The more I think about Anna having known about Josh and his past, the more I feel like Anna was brainwashed, partly by the fundie lifestyle and partly by her parents. The Kellers got lucky with Esther and Priscilla getting married but with the bad luck they've had with David and Susanna I think Ma and Pa Keller may of pushed Josh to Anna as her only option at marriage (correct me if I'm wrong. Not entirely sure about the timeline).

Also I hope JB and M are not only pulled deep into this but have the whole damn book case thown at them! How dare they protect Josh after all he did! How dare they accept him back into their home! How dare they speculate to the mental state and well being of a victim they've had nothing to do with for years! I hope victim 5 sues them too for not giving them antiquate protection whilst babysitting.

Josh and Anna were married before David and Pris. Suze was also some time after J+A. Her daughter is around Paul Pecan's age IIRC.

ETA: I wouldn't describe Esther or Pris as exactly "lucky" in the marriage dept.

[16strong]

Josh and Anna were married before David and Pris. Suze was also some time after J+A. Her daughter is around Paul Pecan's age IIRC.

ETA: I wouldn't describe Esther or Pris as exactly "lucky" in the marriage dept.

Rebekah is the only girl in that family that seems to have lucked out in the marriage department. I agree about Pris. Davey strikes me as very abusive. Maybe not physically, but definitely verbally.

[Haystack]

There could be many reasons behind why now. In fact, it could very well be the fact that the story made headlines and required her to relive something that she was repressing. It's hard to say without even knowing who she is.

I agree.

She could have left fundieville and with this being brought up again, now realizing how f'd up it was originally handled.

I like the 'it is JoyAnna' fantasy best though.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

As far as complete speculation on why the victim might come forward now, maybe she's been dealing with it for ages, and she has all these feelings of uncleanliness because she's been taught all that, and would have taken action at any time, BUT, maybe she believe that she had no recourse.

Maybe she was told it had been handled, and only now learned that it hadn't.

Maybe she was told nobody would believe her, and now somebody will.

Maybe she was told that there was no recourse, that he didn't break any laws. Maybe she was told that touching over clothes was only a sin, not a crime, or that doing it at 15 isn't a crime, or any number of other things, and now that it's public she learned she was lied to.

My wildest hope, as far as her identity?

I hope she's a dude. I hope they had a dude babysitting before they learned that boys weren't allowed to take care of girls, and that all references to her as a girl are lies, and that the dude who has been screaming about how evil teh geys are got caught comparing chest hairs or something. Heck, I hope they're lying about it being a babysitter, and it was a dude who spent the night in fellowship with them or something.

Well, according to the police reports, he touched the victim's breasts while the victim was on the couch, which points largely to it being a female victim.

HOWEVER, there is always the possibility that this victim is not the actual 5th victim and is, in fact, a completely different person.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

...unless of course JB has something on all of them. I don't think he's above blackmail.

I don't really know what kind of blackmail JB could get on a person. I mean, he didn't even realize his own family could be outed based on a police investigation...

[Alyciabaleesha]

"From Josh:

Twelve years ago, as a young teenager I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely sorry and deeply regret. I hurt others, including my family and close friends. I confessed this to my parents who took several steps to help me address the situation. We spoke with the authorities where I confessed my wrongdoing and my parents arranged for me and those affected by my actions to receive counseling. I understood that if I continued down this wrong road that I would end up ruining my life. I sought forgiveness from those I had wronged and asked Christ to forgive me and come into my life. I would do anything to go back to those teen years and take different actions. In my life today, I am so very thankful for God’s grace, mercy and redemption."

For everyone who is saying that Josh admitted the molestation, he admitted NOTHING!!! JB&M admitted and Jill and Jessa admitted, but Josh has made only a very vague statement about "inexcusable actions."

People are referring to the actual incidents. Josh confessed to his parents several times, as well as the police officers. It's all in the police report(s), and JB & M confirmed that he came to the m several times seeking help.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Well, if people who have come forward (Christian broadcasters, Pastors, community member church members) and evidence produced, the letter sent to Oprah and the church lady are to be believed, plenty of people in AR knew about these incidents. If JB had enemies in AR, someone would have come forward years ago. People in AR and in the DC area knew, if these folks and the evidence procured is to be believed. Since Josh admitted to the incidents, we know they are true. JB had this kid stand up in front their congregation and admit his faults/sins...1 additional person drastically increases the odds of you being outed. They were connected enough to bury this crime for 10+ years.

Not having enemies is a lot different than having a lot of connections. I mean, my dad and I have both served in elected positions. As far as I know, neither of us has any enemies. That doesn't mean that either of us has the kind of connections necessary to make problems disappear.

[ILoveJellybeans]

A lot of talk about how informed Anna was about Josh's criminal activities.

I wonder how much the babysitter knew. If I remember the interview correctly, they called the babysitter's family and said guess what happened while you were sleeping. The Duggars did the basic same downplaying of it-- the babysitter hadn't noticed, the babysitter forgave. Did the babysitter know that Joshie had been doing this repeatedly?

What if the babysitter was watching this interview on Fox and/or read the police report and realize that Josh had this pattern of behavior, that the Duggars knew about, but still had her come over and babysit?

That is such a creepy thought. Imagine babysitting for a family, and then finding out that their son molested you in your sleep, and that he had actually been doing this to his sisters and they knew of it.

I don't know how anyone could leave their kids with a babysitter when one of them is molesting the other kids without telling them about what is going on and the safeguards that need to be in place. Especially if said kid is a teenager, likely almost adult height by then and could put the babysitter at risk of being molested too.

They have to have not told the babysitter this. Why would any teenage girl agree to have put herself in that situation if she knew, and what kind of parents would let their kid babysit for a family where the teenage son is a child molester.

I think anyone who is watching a child who has a history of acting out sexually towards other people should know about their history and the safeguards that must be in place to keep the others in the home safe. The parents have a responsibility to tell about stuff like this. Babysitters have a right to know what they are getting into, especially serious things that could result in someone being harmed under their watch (or them being harmed).

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Since Anna's dad runs a prison ministry, I will make an educated guess that he works with sexual offenders and knows how high the recidivism rate is. Why would he not try to save her from marrying a confessed child molester? I just can't get past that.

For the same reason he works as a prison minister: because he thinks the reason they committed the crimes again is because they hadn't found Jesus. Josh did. Therefore, Josh isn't a problem. Right?