Duggars Vs. Bates

[raisingthebarre94]

The only thing I want to say is that it's unfair to say that none of the duggar girls have continuing education or s career. Jill is a Certified Professional Midwife who could make an average of 70k a year. Apprenticeships are a wonderful alternative education option. While this is a fundie approved career, it's still a career.

[elliha]

On 2016-04-03 at 2:01 AM, OrchidBlossom said:

Alyssa married the son of a fundie senator with ties to IBLP. Senator probably needs his extended family to look normal and likeable. Headship (son of senator) probably "asked" (more likely told) Alyssa that she needed to wear more modern clothes to fit the expected image. Alyssa may love to follow that directive of course, that's up to her. But as far as the Bates are concerned Alyssa is just following the guidance of her headship, so it's probably fine.

Alyssa could be modern and still wear skirts, I am confident she chose to wear pants (if her husband or FIL suggested it I don't know but I am actually pretty confident this is not something she didn't want herself). While I don't see it as an extreme rebellion I am sure it was not just a publicity stunt.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, raisingthebarre94 said:

The only thing I want to say is that it's unfair to say that none of the duggar girls have continuing education or s career. Jill is a Certified Professional Midwife who could make an average of 70k a year. Apprenticeships are a wonderful alternative education option. While this is a fundie approved career, it's still a career.

While Jill did put in effort to pursue a certification, her education on the subject is sorely lacking and the person who she learned under lost her certification in Arkansas after a negligent birth. So I really don't think her certification counts for very much to be honest. She seems to know the bare minimum for a complications free birth, which became clear when she gave birth to Izzy. Her lack of knowledge could have very serious consequences for someone in the future.

Also I don't believe Jill is a CPM - she is a Lay Midwife if I remember correctly.

 

6 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

The thing for me that makes me "like" the Bates more, or I guess rather makes me dislike them less, is a couple of little things, mainly regarded the mothers. I mean both families are involved in the same dangerous cult, both parents have worked to minimize / cover up sexual abuse, and both families have likely used abusive pearls discipline methods, but Kelly actually seems to like being around and interacting with her children past their infancy. Plus, as far as I know, she has never talked about how women are responsible for mens' bad thoughts or actions through their clothes in front of her sexual abuse victim daughters.

As far as we know, none of her daughters were ever assaulted. I hope that's the truth - because based off the teachings of IBLP (of which Gil and Kelly are willing participants) all the Bates kids would be told exactly those things. In fact, I'm pretty sure they have been told all those things regardless of whether any of them were ever assaulted - those ideas are built right into the core of IBLP teachings to which all members are exposed.

Just because we haven't seen her discussing these things with her children doesn't mean she hasn't - it just means she's smart enough not to do it in the public eye the way the Duggars did. 

[Kak]

I've never understood this "Compare & Contrast the Duggar and Bates Families" type of discussion. Both families come from the same religious cult, both have sexual abuse scandals associated with them (simplification for those who won't dig deeper), both raise their families with similar worldviews. Any differences between them are superficial and personality driven. 

Some might find Kelly more personable than Michelle, but so what? It's not insightful or helpful to a discussion of the dangers of fundamentalism. 

The Bateses are selling and the leghumpers are buying. FJ should know better.

 

[formergothardite]

7 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

The thing for me that makes me "like" the Bates more, or I guess rather makes me dislike them less, is a couple of little things, mainly regarded the mothers. I mean both families are involved in the same dangerous cult, both parents have worked to minimize / cover up sexual abuse, and both families have likely used abusive pearls discipline methods, but Kelly actually seems to like being around and interacting with her children past their infancy. Plus, as far as I know, she has never talked about how women are responsible for mens' bad thoughts or actions through their clothes in front of her sexual abuse victim daughters.

I think Kelly is better at looking like she likes her children more than Michelle, but I'm not sure she actually does. The baby training Kelly admits to using is downright abusive. In the original blog she also said that babies are assigned "buddies" in the womb and the buddy starts taking care of the baby the moment it is born. She only potty trained the oldest children. And, of course, there is the infamous interview from back before they were famous where Kelly was asked to list her children in birth order and she admitted that she couldn't do that. And, no, it wasn't a joke. From the reaction to Michael leaving it is pretty clear that her buddy views her as the mother, not Kelly. 

I suspect Kelly is as checked out as Michelle when it comes to her children, she just knows how to put on a better show. As for the bolded, Gil and Kelly teach a class in IBLP about the "high price" of a "sensual" woman. I haven't listend to it, but it probably amounts to what Michelle stated, and who knows how many abused IBLP teens have had to sit through that. 

[elliha]

7 hours ago, Imagine20 said:

People also need to remember that the Bates have PR people helping them direct every public move they make. Those tweets and pictures and folksy posts are written and executed with the specific goal of making them appear likeable. The same thing with the TV show: it's edited and re-created to make them appear in the best possible light.   There's a reason they don't talk about the cult, and that's because people might look into it and start to wonder about what's really lurking under the surface. When people bring up Gil's board position, some just assume he's nothing but that good ol' boy and great dad seen on the show, and how could he possibly have tried to cover up Gothard's sick behavior! 

Anything that creates controversy is scrubbed and forgotten or rectified later. 

It's like the fact that people forget about their "Patriotic Room" (or whatever they called it) when others have concerns they may be racists. The pictures have been scrubbed from the Bates site and all but forgotten to many and they made sure her sister was on the show... which conveniently gives them deniability when anyone brings up that topic.

So why is Lawson allowed to say all those stupid things he has said? It is not about views, I strongly dislike his views but also how things were said. He has made himself come across as insensitive and stupid, it can hardly be good for the brand. The Terry Schiavo picture was absolutely awful with that text attached to it, I am sure a lot of pro-life people would also find it insensitive.

[Chickenbutt]

I don't watch the Bates show so I only know what I read here. Can someone give me a link to the lawsuit please? I am too lazy to search and am not exactly sure what I am searching for. Please and thank you.

[iweartanktops]

7 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

I don't watch the Bates show so I only know what I read here. Can someone give me a link to the lawsuit please? I am too lazy to search and am not exactly sure what I am searching for. Please and thank you.

Here's the thread in QoS. The links are within 

 

[Chickenbutt]

Just now, iweartanktops said:

Here's the thread in QoS. The links are within 

 

Thank you. Going down that rabbit hole now. Keep the rescue team on standby!

[Chickenbutt]

After skimming the lawsuit.....there is not enough hot water nor body wash in my house to wash off the "ick". I am not sure if I want to continue down this rabbit hole. Gonna have to think on this.

[Palimpsest]

10 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

After skimming the lawsuit.....there is not enough hot water nor body wash in my house to wash off the "ick". I am not sure if I want to continue down this rabbit hole. Gonna have to think on this.

Yes.  I just want to warn people that the lawsuit contains some very difficult material.

Here is a summary for those who can't stomach the full document.  The lawsuit has been expanded to include more victims  since this was written.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2016/01/a-summary-of-allegations-against-bill-gothard-and-iblp.html

[THERetroGamerNY]

1 hour ago, Chickenbutt said:

After skimming the lawsuit.....there is not enough hot water nor body wash in my house to wash off the "ick". I am not sure if I want to continue down this rabbit hole. Gonna have to think on this.

It strips the varnish right clean off the Bates, does it not?

[TuringMachine]

8 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I think Kelly is better at looking like she likes her children more than Michelle, but I'm not sure she actually does. The baby training Kelly admits to using is downright abusive. In the original blog she also said that babies are assigned "buddies" in the womb and the buddy starts taking care of the baby the moment it is born. She only potty trained the oldest children. And, of course, there is the infamous interview from back before they were famous where Kelly was asked to list her children in birth order and she admitted that she couldn't do that. And, no, it wasn't a joke. From the reaction to Michael leaving it is pretty clear that her buddy views her as the mother, not Kelly. 

I suspect Kelly is as checked out as Michelle when it comes to her children, she just knows how to put on a better show. As for the bolded, Gil and Kelly teach a class in IBLP about the "high price" of a "sensual" woman. I haven't listend to it, but it probably amounts to what Michelle stated, and who knows how many abused IBLP teens have had to sit through that. 

You guys are all probably right.

For the bolded does anyone know where to find that? That's ridiculous. I think even Michelle can do that. Hell I could probably do it. Well actually I get a little lost around the Trace, Tori, Carlin area but they're also not my own children.

[THERetroGamerNY]

11 hours ago, raisingthebarre94 said:

The only thing I want to say is that it's unfair to say that none of the duggar girls have continuing education or s career. Jill is a Certified Professional Midwife who could make an average of 70k a year. Apprenticeships are a wonderful alternative education option. While this is a fundie approved career, it's still a career.

No, actually it is rather fair.

Follow along with me on this.

Her "certification" in that midwife area is useless: The woman who taught her wasn't properly certified herself.

But, even ignoring that, let's say that Jill still has such expertise, okay?

She's still a girl fully immersed in damaging fundie submission, trained in an area of expertise that basically is her helping to deliver more babies.

Because godly babies.

And they also use that overpriced, over-glorified College Plus service to get low-grade higher education knowledge, which helps them side-step actual experiences on a college campus. Because then they can get "educated" while STILL staying under daddy's protective Gothard umbrella, all while waiting for God to deliver unto them their knight in shining armor who will (guess what) enable them to make godly babies of their own.

See the pattern here?

Higher education in Quiverfull is, as the title of the main thread says: Lipstick on a pig.

[Furbabies]

11 hours ago, raisingthebarre94 said:

The only thing I want to say is that it's unfair to say that none of the duggar girls have continuing education or s career. Jill is a Certified Professional Midwife who could make an average of 70k a year. Apprenticeships are a wonderful alternative education option. While this is a fundie approved career, it's still a career.

Uh not quite.  Jill would need to get an advanced nursing degree and become a Nurse Midwife to pull that kind of cash.  Her certificate is just that, a certificate.  It's not a degree or a license.  She's just a specialized nurse assistant (CNA).  If she's lucky, after about five or six years of full time practice, she might work up to 25k a year.  That is Derrick would let her work

 

[Wenny]

11 hours ago, raisingthebarre94 said:

The only thing I want to say is that it's unfair to say that none of the duggar girls have continuing education or s career. Jill is a Certified Professional Midwife who could make an average of 70k a year. Apprenticeships are a wonderful alternative education option. While this is a fundie approved career, it's still a career.

See, I've been looking around for the last week trying to find Jill's CPM verification. I can't seem to find it. She said that she studied online through a tx program and the only one I could find was http://texasmidwives.com/education/course.asp this

[Wenny]

7 minutes ago, Furbabies said:

Uh not quite.  Jill would need to get an advanced nursing degree and become a Nurse Midwife to pull that kind of cash.  Her certificate is just that, a certificate.  It's not a degree or a license.  She's just a specialized nurse assistant (CNA).  If she's lucky, after about five or six years of full time practice, she might work up to 25k a year.  That is Derrick would let her work

 

 Please don't say that. I've seen really amazing CNA morale tank because of the mindset "I am just a CNA." CNA are very important to healthcare. Some CNA go on to be RNS and BSNs, others stay a CNA.. 

[Palimpsest]

2 minutes ago, Wenny said:

 Please don't say that. I've seen really amazing CNA morale tank because of the mindset "I am just a CNA." CNA are very important to healthcare. Some CNA go on to be RNS and BSNs, others stay a CNA.. 

I agree.  There are wonderful CNAs and they are very important to healthcare.

Let's put it this way - I would not advise anyone to trust a person with Jill Duggar's "Certified Midwife" credentials for a home birth.  Get a fully qualified Nurse Midwife instead.

[Coconut Flan]

Jill doesn't even qualify as a CNA in my state.

I took the practice test for Jill's certification and without studying got a 90%.  There is something very wrong with that kind of program and testing.

[Bad Wolf]

55 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

Jill doesn't even qualify as a CNA in my state.

I took the practice test for Jill's certification and without studying got a 90%.  There is something very wrong with that kind of program and testing.

That is really scary. What exactly are Jill's qualifications? I know she took a 7 hour test.

[RosyDaisy]

I would rather have a mama cat as a midwife than Jill Dillard.

[19 cats and counting]

Considering the complications with both Izzy and the Spurge's births, I don't trust the midwife skills at the TTH.  I heard through the grapevine (here or PTV) that Jessa only had a boutique ultrasound and had no prenatal care with the Spurge (supposively from someone who was close to Ben's extended family).

I am not sure if Jill had prenatal care (at least Anna did with the older M kids, not sure with the younger ones).  For all of Michelle's flaws, at least she had prenatal care with every kid born on TV (Jackson-Josie).  

And the Bates ladies had prenatal care.  The two grandsons were born in hospitals (not emergency).  (No idea with Allie).  

(Note-- this is not about hospital vs home births.  This is about a pregnant woman looking out for her and the baby's health).

[Grimalkin]

On April 3, 2016 at 2:41 PM, ksgranola1 said:

You know, being a member of a board like ILPB, Gil might well have objected to the coverup of Gothard's gross behavior but  was in the minority & he just had to go along w/the group's position.

I seem to remember JB saying Ben had been coming to their church & came over after to sit on the couch w/Jessa w/the whole damn family around them. I don't remember seeing hide nor hare of Ben before he came to ask JB/M to court. Boy, was THAT awkward. I don't even think Ben took his hat off.

     I know other people have mentioned it, but it cannot be said enough. If you ever find yourself on the board for an organization, any organization, and they purposely cover up abuse, or you discover they are involved in illegal acts of any kind, you run. Actually, if you have proof you report it too. It might suck in the short term, people will be mad at you and give you a hard time, but you will destroy your reputation if and when it all comes to light.

         

[VelociRapture]

43 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Considering the complications with both Izzy and the Spurge's births, I don't trust the midwife skills at the TTH.  I heard through the grapevine (here or PTV) that Jessa only had a boutique ultrasound and had no prenatal care with the Spurge (supposively from someone who was close to Ben's extended family).

I am not sure if Jill had prenatal care (at least Anna did with the older M kids, not sure with the younger ones).  For all of Michelle's flaws, at least she had prenatal care with every kid born on TV (Jackson-Josie).  

And the Bates ladies had prenatal care.  The two grandsons were born in hospitals (not emergency).  (No idea with Allie).  

(Note-- this is not about hospital vs home births.  This is about a pregnant woman looking out for her and the baby's health).

Kelly said on the show that Alyssa had Allie in a birthing center. No word on whether it was attached to a Hospital or not - I'm guessing it could have been free standing.

[blessalessi]

In an ideal world - hell, in a normal world, your organisation should probably have a policy in place that sets out how you will safeguard the interests of children in contact with your organisation. Alongside a whistleblowing policy. And people with the intellectual capacity to understand that it is not their job to investigate allegations of abuse and yet also the decency to pass any allegations over to the proper authorities for investigation.

For fucks sake, the only responsibility of a Christian man is to hold the umbrella of protection over women and children.  He doesn't have to work his fingers to the bone changing dirty nappies and cooking and cleaning all day every day.  He doesn't have to get up in the night for crying babies. He just has to be willing to die to his manly self on the very rare occasion that he is called to do so. This was one such occasion and Gil totally and utterly failed.