Duggars Vs. Bates

[Chickenbutt]

Organizations and child molesting.....See Penn State/Jerry Sandusky/The Second Mile.

Sheesh, you would think organizations would have sat up and taken notice during that fiasco.

[quiverofdoubt]

1 minute ago, VelociRapture said:

Kelly said on the show that Alyssa had Allie in a birthing center. No word on whether it was attached to a Hospital or not - I'm guessing it could have been free standing.

I gave birth to my first in a freestanding birthing center with some AMAZING midwives. They were incredible (the center I went to has been around for decades, and the area has a long standing tradition of midwifery). The center was across the street from a hospital that they work closely with, in the rare case a transfer is needed.  I got full prenatal care at the birth center.  I've seen an ob this time around for various reasons, and comparing the two i'd say I probably got more comprehensive care with my midwives. My midwives were exceptional at my daughter's birth and highly skilled.

I don't know any decent midwife or ob who would be cool with no prenatal care. They MAY take on a women late in pregnancy who has had none, if only to try to help her the best they can towards the end.  But if jill thought it was fine just to do the occasional doppler and get a boutique u/s for her or her sister because "she's trained", then her training was for shit. Sorry. But doctors/midwives see other dr's or midwives when they are pregnant. Any one halfway trained wouldn't have allowed jessa or jill to receive next to nil prenatal care. A good professional may have even able to prevent or better assist with both of their long births and complications.

[Palimpsest]

1 minute ago, Chickenbutt said:

Organizations and child molesting.....See Penn State/Jerry Sandusky/The Second Mile.

Sheesh, you would think organizations would have sat up and taken notice during that fiasco.

Oh but, the IBLP was hiding child molestation, rape and abuse long before Sandusky was publicized.  And long before the Catholic Church Abuse scandals broke in the early 2000s.

We are talking about an organization whose very culture blames the victim for tempting the abuser and being the guilty party for having been raped.  These allegations go back for years.  And have been concealed for years.

It is codified in IBLP materials.  Perhaps we should find more links.

And Gil Bates is up to his neck in a recent attempted cover-up.  

[Jucifer]

18 hours ago, Imagine20 said:

People also need to remember that the Bates have PR people helping them direct every public move they make. Those tweets and pictures and folksy posts are written and executed with the specific goal of making them appear likeable. The same thing with the TV show: it's edited and re-created to make them appear in the best possible light.   There's a reason they don't talk about the cult, and that's because people might look into it and start to wonder about what's really lurking under the surface. When people bring up Gil's board position, some just assume he's nothing but that good ol' boy and great dad seen on the show, and how could he possibly have tried to cover up Gothard's sick behavior! 

Anything that creates controversy is scrubbed and forgotten or rectified later. 

It's like the fact that people forget about their "Patriotic Room" (or whatever they called it) when others have concerns they may be racists. The pictures have been scrubbed from the Bates site and all but forgotten to many and they made sure her sister was on the show... which conveniently gives them deniability when anyone brings up that topic.

This brings back memories of when my mother, my little sister and I took a road trip from KY to FLA when I was about 14. 

As soon as we crossed the border into Georgia the state flags started popping up. They looked like confederate flags. It freaked me out.  I couldn't believe what I was seeing and I pestered my mother about it until we were safely across the Florida state line. O.o

We SDAs were fundie to the max but we considered ourselves progressive fundies.

 

 

 

[THERetroGamerNY]

You'd think the ONE thing these people would be utter experts at would be proper child birthing...

... But then Jill Duggar basically becomes a Toys R Us midwife.

[iweartanktops]

41 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Oh but, the IBLP was hiding child molestation, rape and abuse long before Sandusky was publicized.  And long before the Catholic Church Abuse scandals broke in the early 2000s.

We are talking about an organization whose very culture blames the victim for tempting the abuser and being the guilty party for having been raped.  These allegations go back for years.  And have been concealed for years.

It is codified in IBLP materials.  Perhaps we should find more links.

And Gil Bates is up to his neck in a recent attempted cover-up.  

Some of the victim blaming IBLP documents are in the Jeremiah ALERT thread. I'll come back and edit to add the link to the post. The actual document is under a spoiler, as it's triggering.

It's pretty bad. 

Here's a link to the post. It came from the IBLP website, which is a disgusting rabbit hole! *trigger warning* under the spoiler in the linked post. And remember, Gil Bates is on the board for this organization! 

 

 

[Grimalkin]

3 hours ago, Wenny said:

 Please don't say that. I've seen really amazing CNA morale tank because of the mindset "I am just a CNA." CNA are very important to healthcare. Some CNA go on to be RNS and BSNs, others stay a CNA.. 

      I don't think anyone feels CNA's are not valuable. I am considering getting my CNA. I don't mind doing the "dirty work", and I like having a hands on relationship with patients. But, there is a big difference between between the two.

[Chickenbutt]

34 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Oh but, the IBLP was hiding child molestation, rape and abuse long before Sandusky was publicized.  And long before the Catholic Church Abuse scandals broke in the early 2000s.

We are talking about an organization whose very culture blames the victim for tempting the abuser and being the guilty party for having been raped.  These allegations go back for years.  And have been concealed for years.

It is codified in IBLP materials.  Perhaps we should find more links.

And Gil Bates is up to his neck in a recent attempted cover-up.  

I didn't think about the timeline of any of these things. You are right. But I still stand by my assertion that any organization whether it be religious (IBLP, Catholic Church) or charitable (Sandusky The Second Mile, Jared from Subway), should be sitting up and taking notice of ALL the organizations that are engaging in child molestation and put safeguards in place for accountability of leaders, board members, etc.

And yes, Gil Bates is up to his neck. I don't know much, if anything, about Gil Bates, but I am learning quickly. I also find, in the lawsuit, that abuse at the homes of the IBLP families, seems rampant. Hence the statements of Jill (I believe) that it happens in a lot of families (parapharased)

[iweartanktops]

5 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

I didn't think about the timeline of any of these things. You are right. But I still stand by my assertion that any organization whether it be religious (IBLP, Catholic Church) or charitable (Sandusky The Second Mile, Jared from Subway), should be sitting up and taking notice of ALL the organizations that are engaging in child molestation and put safeguards in place for accountability of leaders, board members, etc.

And yes, Gil Bates is up to his neck. I don't know much, if anything, about Gil Bates, but I am learning quickly. I also find, in the lawsuit, that abuse at the homes of the IBLP families, seems rampant. Hence the statements of Jill (I believe) that it happens in a lot of families (parapharased)

Gothard certainly targeted women and girls who had a known history of abuse. And I'm not sure if abuse is necessarily more rampant in that population, or if Jill was just told that to make her feel that what Josh did was "normal". *barf* But considering the abuse worksheet I linked, it wouldn't be surprising to me if abuse is more prevalent in these families. Victims are taught it's their fault. 

[SassyPants]

20 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

You'd think the ONE thing these people would be utter experts at would be proper child birthing...

... But then Jill Duggar basically becomes a Toys R Us midwife.

Or housekeeping

Or cooking

Or parenting

From what we are shown, the things the girls should be experts at, seem to elude them-

[CorruptionInc.]

2 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

I would rather have a mama cat as a midwife than Jill Dillard.

As would I!

Watching my mum's cat give birth when I was a wee little Corruption was amazing. Freckles (yes that was her name) would give birth, wash a kitten, make it warm and give birth to the next, repeating the process. She was protective of her litter and was always right next to us if we chose to pick up one of her kittens.

If Jill the dill was near a woman giving birth, I'd tell her to GTFO. I wouldn't want her trying to deliver a baby at all!

[Furbabies]

4 hours ago, Wenny said:

 Please don't say that. I've seen really amazing CNA morale tank because of the mindset "I am just a CNA." CNA are very important to healthcare. Some CNA go on to be RNS and BSNs, others stay a CNA.. 

Well said.  My apologies.

[RosyDaisy]

Actually my husband is probably is more qualified to deliver a baby than Jill. He has real medical training at a real, state accredited college as an EMT.

[raisingthebarre94]

6 hours ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

 

 

No, actually it is rather fair.

 

Follow along with me on this.

 

Her "certification" in that midwife area is useless: The woman who taught her wasn't properly certified herself.

 

But, even ignoring that, let's say that Jill still has such expertise, okay?

 

She's still a girl fully immersed in damaging fundie submission, trained in an area of expertise that basically is her helping to deliver more babies.

 

Because godly babies.

 

And they also use that overpriced, over-glorified College Plus service to get low-grade higher education knowledge, which helps them side-step actual experiences on a college campus. Because then they can get "educated" while STILL staying under daddy's protective Gothard umbrella, all while waiting for God to deliver unto them their knight in shining armor who will (guess what) enable them to make godly babies of their own.

 

See the pattern here?

 

Higher education in Quiverfull is, as the title of the main thread says: Lipstick on a pig.

So I really hate to turn FJ into a mommy war blog, but I'm going to respond to this because it is extremely insulting and is certainly "stating your opinion as fact."

The argument that has been said is that the Bates get points for allowing the females to pursue their education and career interests to an extent and the Duggars do not. I do not think that the Duggars or the Bates have a great set of beliefs and rules. I definitely am in the camp that Gothardism is harmful and hurtful to a lot of people. But it is never the less untrue that none of the Duggars have had opportunities for career as midwifery is a profession. 

I am an advocate of midwives and a midwifery student so I have some background to speak on this subject. 

One can see on Jill's instagram that she became of Certified Professional Midwife through the National Association of Registered Midwives. This board is intensive and requires an education program (there is an accreditation department MEAC which has a list of accredited Direct-Entry Midwifery education programs, but it is not required to attend one unless you want to practice in the state of New Jersey. This is the council that gives accreditation to nurse-midwifery programs.), a written board exam which covers all the aspects of prenatal counseling, labor and birth in the normal birth, how to screen out high risk patients, common complications during birth, newborn assessment and postpartum care, along with other topics. One is also required to complete a clinical portion which includes at least 60 births and several clients from prenatal to postpartum acting as the primary midwife. CPMs are independent practitioners who work with low-risk clients. They are NOT a glorified CNA, as they do not have to work under a doctor, nurse, etc. They primarily work in out-of-hospital settings. They have licensure to practice in about half the states currently, and many others are in the process of writing legislation to make direct-entry midwives legal. In many other countries around the world, midwives don't have a background in nursing. Ina May Gaskin is a CPM and she has an honorary doctorate for discovering the Gaskin maneuver for shoulder dystocia. Whether or not you personally feel that a Certified Professional Midwife is the best choice for you is your own business, but the point is that Jill has a career that has the potential to be as fulfilling and successful as Erin Bates. I cannot personally speak for Jill's midwifery skills as I have never seen her in action, but I'm guessing neither have you. 

For more info on CPMs see http://narm.org/ or http://mana.org/ and proof about the compensation I mentioned can be seen at this link: http://salarygenius.com/1/1/salary/certified-professional-midwife-salary#national

To your other points: Yes it is a shame that these children do not have an opportunity to have "the college experience." It sucks that they have a shitty belief system which puts their father in control of many aspects of their life. It may be the case that she only delivers fundie babies, but right now she seems to be delivering babies in Central America, who could grow up to be Catholic. I don't think every life choice Jill makes is good, because obviously she is brainwashed into a crappy belief system. My only point was specifically that it is unfair to say that the Bates have more fulfilling education and career lives than the Duggars. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Furbabies said:

Uh not quite.  Jill would need to get an advanced nursing degree and become a Nurse Midwife to pull that kind of cash.  Her certificate is just that, a certificate.  It's not a degree or a license.  She's just a specialized nurse assistant (CNA).  If she's lucky, after about five or six years of full time practice, she might work up to 25k a year.  That is Derrick would let her work

 

Please see response to other poster above to answer your rebuttals. Your statements are not true, and I have a lot of information addressing your claims above. But I'm new and I didn't know how to quote multiple posts in one post. :/

Not trying to be a know-it-all, just shedding some light on the topic.

[Coconut Flan]

Have we seen any proof or indication that Jill is delivering babies in Central America? 

[raisingthebarre94]

5 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I agree.  There are wonderful CNAs and they are very important to healthcare.

Let's put it this way - I would not advise anyone to trust a person with Jill Duggar's "Certified Midwife" credentials for a home birth.  Get a fully qualified Nurse Midwife instead.

I think you have the right to choose whatever birth options you have available to you, but if you see my above posts, you will be that Certified Professional Midwives are in fact independent professionals who are fully qualified to provide care to women who do not have high-risk health conditions. Just as qualified as Nurse Midwives. It's your personal preference which to choose when deciding where and how to give birth. Direct-entry midwives have a vast amount of knowledge and wisdom and don't have their "pathology" blinders on and believe that birth is a natural physiological process. I am glad you believe in nurse midwives, but I would advise against telling other women what to choose for their birth.

[THERetroGamerNY]

@raisingthebarre94 Perhaps I should have been clearer. I have zero issues with the actual skill set, or profession, in any regards.

I was merely commenting on how I perceive these families shaping skill sets and limited career choices based on their treatment of women.

And it can safely be assumed that anything I type here is merely my opinion, and never a fact. Especially since I would love for these people to prove me wrong in every regard.

[iweartanktops]

2 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

Have we seen any proof or indication that Jill is delivering babies in Central America? 

Not that I know of. I would be shocked if she has delivered a baby there.  @raisingthebarre94, have you seen somewhere that she's actually delivering babies? 

[Chickenbutt]

So is Jill a licensed lay midwife? If she is, she is not on the current (Jan 2016) list.

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/programsServices/familyHealth/WomensHealth/Documents/LicensedLayMidwives.pdf

She is also not on the licensed midwife apprentice list.

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/programsServices/familyHealth/WomensHealth/Documents/LicensedMidwifeApprentices.pdf

I think I am confused about what certification/license she actually has.

[Bethella]

10 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

So is Jill a licensed lay midwife? If she is, she is not on the current (Jan 2016) list.

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/programsServices/familyHealth/WomensHealth/Documents/LicensedLayMidwives.pdf

She is also not on the licensed midwife apprentice list.

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/programsServices/familyHealth/WomensHealth/Documents/LicensedMidwifeApprentices.pdf

I think I am confused about what certification/license she actually has.

Jill allegedly passed her NARM (North American Registry of Midwives) certification exam in September 2015. It was discussed in the Dillard thread part 6. I couldn't find any information that she'd taken the Arkansas Midwife Regulations exam which has to be passed with a score of 75% or higher to be licensed in Arkansas (in addition to the NARM exam). Since they were already living in CA, I'm assuming she never bothered to try and get licensed in Arkansas. 

 

[raisingthebarre94]

3 hours ago, iweartanktops said:

Not that I know of. I would be shocked if she has delivered a baby there.  @raisingthebarre94, have you seen somewhere that she's actually delivering babies? 

I haven't seen any proof, only a very brief showing on the new "counting on" show (i watched one episode) of her feeling a pregnant lady's belly, which could be staged? She hasn't written anything about it. 

[Palimpsest]

7 hours ago, raisingthebarre94 said:

I think you have the right to choose whatever birth options you have available to you, but if you see my above posts, you will be that Certified Professional Midwives are in fact independent professionals who are fully qualified to provide care to women who do not have high-risk health conditions. Just as qualified as Nurse Midwives. It's your personal preference which to choose when deciding where and how to give birth. Direct-entry midwives have a vast amount of knowledge and wisdom and don't have their "pathology" blinders on and believe that birth is a natural physiological process. I am glad you believe in nurse midwives, but I would advise against telling other women what to choose for their birth.

You are entitled to your opinion and I am just as entitled to mine.

I repeat. I would not advise any expectant mother to choose a Certified Professional Midwife instead of a fully qualified Nurse Midwife unless it was a last resort. 

It is, of course, completely up to the individual what they choose to do and they don't have to take my advice.

[VelociRapture]

3 hours ago, raisingthebarre94 said:

I haven't seen any proof, only a very brief showing on the new "counting on" show (i watched one episode) of her feeling a pregnant lady's belly, which could be staged? She hasn't written anything about it. 

Curious to see what you think of this:

http://www.skepticalob.com/2015/09/jill-duggar-dillard-is-not-a-real-midwife-shes-a-cpm-a-counterfeit-professional-midwife.html

Its a blog post written by a Dr. Amy Tuteur - her speciality is OBGYN and she taught at Harvard for a while as well. Her opinion is that Jill Dillard is a fraud because she didn't go through the type of educational program that Certified Nurse Midwives do.

And for the record, most people here don't oppose Midwives completely - we do, however, oppose the type of programs that Fundies (such as Jill) support because they aren't as rigorous AND (most importantly) the Duggars make it sound as if Jill is qualified to help with ANY birth, not just complication free ones. Jill's own birth with Izzy was sketchy at best. We still don't know who led at the birth - it appears Jill, her mother, a few sisters, and a friend were the only ones there as she attempted the Home Birth. Combined with her seeming lack of adequate prenatal care and her poor judgement in deciding to labor as long as she did without realizing there could be complications...

And because of all that there is the potential for serious harm to be done - just look at what happened with Jill's mentor Venessa Giron. She lost her ability to work in Arkansas due to a negligent birth. She simply picked up and moved to another state so she could work there instead. 

That is also the reason why so many of us don't give the Duggars credit for allowing Jill to pursue the program - they half-assed it like they half-ass everything. The Bates do as well, but (again) Jill's chosen field has the potential to cause serious physical harm to other people. Erin pounding away at her piano like it just insulted her honor only harms good taste at times. If one of the Bates kids half-assed any type of healthcare education I promise you people would be calling them out as much as we call out Jill.

ETA: I am genuinely curious what you think of Dr. Tuteur's views by the way. Not trying to be argumentative about how valid becoming a CPM is.

4 hours ago, Bethella said:

Jill allegedly passed her NARM (North American Registry of Midwives) certification exam in September 2015. It was discussed in the Dillard thread part 6. I couldn't find any information that she'd taken the Arkansas Midwife Regulations exam which has to be passed with a score of 75% or higher to be licensed in Arkansas (in addition to the NARM exam). Since they were already living in CA, I'm assuming she never bothered to try and get licensed in Arkansas. 

 

I'm guessing she didn't pursue it in Arkansas because her mentor isn't allowed to practice there anymore. I remember someone noticed Jill and Jana weren't listed as apprentices on the state website after that whole situation with Venessa became public (even though they weren't set to expire until last summer). It's possible that she wouldn't be able to get licensed for that reason - but that's just a guess and I honestly don't know.

[Palimpsest]

41 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Erin pounding away at her piano like it just insulted her honor

Coffee meets screen!   But she's a "concert pianist!"  And JB Duggar has also referred to Jill as a "nurse," for the record.

Seriously, though, @VelociRapture.  Very good post. Thank you.

Amy Tuteur has her own agenda with that article.  IMO, she overstates a lot.

The CPM program grew because there was a dearth of nurse midwives in rural areas and, quite honestly, some training and oversight is better than nothing.  I think CPMs should have to work under trained medical supervision, personally.  There is too much risk involved and my personal bias is for a healthy baby - not a mother's need to have the birth experience of her dreams.  MMV on that.  Mind you, women can choose to free birth in kiddy pools on guano covered decks if they want to.  Their choice.

I've got nothing against midwives at all. Or doulas.   Just because I can never resist the opportunity to make this recommendation check out Martha Ballard's Diary.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Ballard

She was a darn sight better than any contemporary physician!

[Apricot]

@VelociRapture great post.

Not sure how it works over there but in the UK it's actually illegal to have an unassisted birth.  It's against the law for a couple to birth a baby deliberately without consulting a medical professional.  Im guessing that's not the case in the US?