Duggars Vs. Bates

[iweartanktops]

@stevie, have you seen any evidence that the (unmarried) Bates kids/adults have their own bank accounts and money from the show? 

Did you know that Gil "borrowed" money from Lawson in the past? 

[stevie]

Well I'm mostly talking about the married kids. Yes I know Gil "borrowed" money from Lawson in the past I've read it on here a million times.

I'm not saying Gil and Kelly Jo are not taking the money they make from the TV show. Maybe they are maybe they're not. I don't know. 

I'm just trying to say the married Bates kids have financial independence and the married Duggar kids don't and the married Bates kids seem to function as adults but the married Duggar kids don't seem to be. This is just from my observations.

[patsymae]

1 hour ago, stevie said:

Well I'm mostly talking about the married kids. Yes I know Gil "borrowed" money from Lawson in the past I've read it on here a million times.

I'm not saying Gil and Kelly Jo are not taking the money they make from the TV show. Maybe they are maybe they're not. I don't know. 

I'm just trying to say the married Bates kids have financial independence and the married Duggar kids don't and the married Bates kids seem to function as adults but the married Duggar kids don't seem to be. This is just from my observations.

It occurred to me also that except for Zach, the Bates kids married into families that are high up in the cult and likely wouldn't take it well if Gil tried to dish out the same shit that JB does. Whereas the Duggar in-laws are the low-level, poverty-stricken Kellers (although maybe Priscilla's marriage pushed them up a bit--jeez, this is like The Tudors; the widowed and very ill Cathy; and Bin's father who tried to use the Duggar connection to create a platform for his own shitspeak. So while the married Bates spawn are securely ensconced in the cult, they have a level of protection from parental micromanagement.

Or maybe I'm full of shit; just a thought. I need a drink.

[stevie]

7 hours ago, patsymae said:

It occurred to me also that except for Zach, the Bates kids married into families that are high up in the cult and likely wouldn't take it well if Gil tried to dish out the same shit that JB does. Whereas the Duggar in-laws are the low-level, poverty-stricken Kellers (although maybe Priscilla's marriage pushed them up a bit--jeez, this is like The Tudors; the widowed and very ill Cathy; and Bin's father who tried to use the Duggar connection to create a platform for his own shitspeak. So while the married Bates spawn are securely ensconced in the cult, they have a level of protection from parental micromanagement.

Or maybe I'm full of shit; just a thought. I need a drink.

Maybe I don't know. I feel like Gil and Kelly Jo would have chosen spouses for their kids that are poverty stricten and are willing to obey everything they say if they really wanted that type of micromanagement. That's just my opinion and speculation. I feel like that's something we won't ever know for sure and can only speculate on. I feel like Gil and Kelly Jo chose spouses that will keep their kids in the cult and not question anything and Jim Bob and Michelle chose spouses that would submit to them and keep control over every aspect of their lives. That's just my opinion though.

[formergothardite]

The Bates did choose spouses who were willing to obey when it came to IBLP and not question Gil and Kelly too much.  It isn't like Gil and Kelly really had the option to provide houses for all the kids. Who knows if they would have done if that was an option. 

JB was okay with Josh moving away and getting his own house. John David seems to have purchased his own house(didn't he?) and is doing his own thing and who knows if he is really living at home. I feel like Jessa had big plans of becoming one of those folks who got paid to travel and speak and she probably could have made good money at it, but Josh fucked that up for her and she didn't seem to have a plan B. Jill and Derick have moved out of the country, yes, her siblings visit a lot, but at least they are getting out of the house. We don't know if the reason they visit is because Jill needs them or because they want to get away. 

 

[Apricot]

It all feels a bit hopeless for even the married Duggar children atm.  I absolutely think JB wants them on a Duggar compound forever.  In my opinion he was only ok with Josh moving away as it made him look better "Look at my son on the FRC".  If Josh and Anna had moved for another job (although god knows what as they're practically unemployable!) I don't think he would have been so happy.

I don't doubt that the Bates would probably like their own Bates compound but they are seemingly not as well of as the Duggars to be able to enable that. 

[stevie]

@formergothardite Well I really don't want to debate anymore about which family is worse. They're both pretty shitty in my opinion. I do want to say though you have posted your escape story on here so has some other people. I'm currently in school for social work and my dream is to work behavioral and mental health clinic for kids and teens working as a therapist. I've been reading Free Jinger for almost three years now and recently I've thinking after I work for a while in a clinic I've been thinking about maybe I could start some organization or clinic or I don't know what it will be called that would help people who escaped from a cult and give them therapy and help them find resources and help them establish a new life. At the college I go to we work a lot with refugees and as social workers were always trying to find them resources and help them adapt to a new life. I still have three more years of school until I'm done and then it would some years after that to establish a career so it would a while before I can start an organization like that. It's just an idea I have right now though. I was actually wondering you being an escapee if you think that's a good idea?

[19 cats and counting]

I think that the lack of a Duggar/ATI royalty wedding (no I don't count Jana as a bridesmaid) speaks volumes to how popular the Duggars really are within their circles.  They had to look outside the cult for suitors for Jill and Jessa.  

I know they've talked about turning down suitors.  But is it Jana/Jinger that is turning down suitors or is it Jim Bob?  I find it very hard to believe that an ATI guy like a Brandon, David, Robert Staddon, Paine, etc hasn't approached JB about Jana.  But JB let a guy like Ben through the gates.  

[formergothardite]

@19 cats and countingI wonder the truth about the "turning down suitors" story.  I think Jim Bob would take a nice ATI guy as long as they would stay on the show.  It could be, though, that the daughters just don't want a nice ATI guy or nice ATI guys don't want them. 

@stevie one of the big concerns to me about the Bates is how they have managed to convince so many people that they are not as bad as the Duggars. That appears to be their goal and they are succeeding and I find that scary.  To me there is no debate. On one hand there are controlling abusive parents and on the other there are controlling abusive parents. Gil and Kelly just sugar coat the evil, but I can't see how they are any better parents or humans than Jim Bob an Michelle. 

People have tossed around the idea of starting an organization like that before. I'm not sure if one has ever gotten off the ground. I do think something like that would be a good idea. 

[19 cats and counting]

I know there was a Jana/Zach Bates courtship rumor going around that someone on the Duggar side (Jana or JB) turned down but I'm not sure the truth to that.  The only thing I know about Zach's love life is that his first courtship with that musician was an epic fail.

I just find it a little odd that with 4 J-slaves, not one is married to an ATI guy.  (That said, I see Joy marrying into the Bates family).  

 

ETA I'm also wondering if Joshgate has something to do with things.  Perhaps the girls are considered 'damaged goods' and unpure.

[stevie]

@formergothardite I never said Gil and Kelly Jo are any better parents or better human beings than Jim Bob and Michelle. The only thing I was trying to say from the beginning is the married Bates kids seem to be functioning better as adults than the married Duggar kids. I never wanted to give the impression that I think Gil and Kelly Jo are better parents

[Ungodly Grandma]

1 hour ago, 19 cats and counting said:

I know there was a Jana/Zach Bates courtship rumor going around that someone on the Duggar side (Jana or JB) turned down but I'm not sure the truth to that.  The only thing I know about Zach's love life is that his first courtship with that musician was an epic fail.

I just find it a little odd that with 4 J-slaves, not one is married to an ATI guy.  (That said, I see Joy marrying into the Bates family).  

 

ETA I'm also wondering if Joshgate has something to do with things.  Perhaps the girls are considered 'damaged goods' and unpure.

It sounded as if most people in their circles already heard the rumors about Josh and the girls years before Joshgate. Which still could mean they are viewed as damaged goods. I wonder if that is why they claimed it is so common for brothers to be "curious about girls." 

[nokidsmom]

2 hours ago, Ungodly Grandma said:

It sounded as if most people in their circles already heard the rumors about Josh and the girls years before Joshgate. Which still could mean they are viewed as damaged goods. I wonder if that is why they claimed it is so common for brothers to be "curious about girls." 

Even before Joshgate 1.0 I wondered how it was that there were no courtships, so-called "special friendships" or anything resembling interest between the Duggar daughters and young men from other families in their circles.  Even now, I don't necessarily think that the reason was because of rumors about Josh.  Yes, the stuff about Josh floated around for years and was kind of an open secret but there's probably any number of reasons or combinations thereof, which might include the stuff about Josh, maybe not.   However, whatever the reasons, I do find it interesting that there's been nothing and thus far, the only two who got married were with guys who were outside of ATI or any of the diehard fundie circles they run with.   

And one thing might be that rather it being Josh that is possibly scaring any suitors off, it might be that many families don't want a part of the reality TV dog and pony (almost typed "phony" here, but it rings true) show.    

Also, anyone who has an issue over Josh might be more over how JB and J'chelle messed up and the sick family dynamics rather than the daughters being "unpure".    Because I can see some families in their circles possibly being WTF over that debacle.    

[IReallyAmHopewell]

3 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

.   

And one thing might be that rather it being Josh that is possibly scaring any suitors off, it might be that many families don't want a part of the reality TV dog and pony (almost typed "phony" here, but it rings true) show.    

Also, anyone who has an issue over Josh might be more over how JB and J'chelle messed up and the sick family dynamics rather than the daughters being "unpure".    Because I can see some families in their circles possibly being WTF over that debacle.    

I think Jana is stuck. I hope not, but I think she's stuck. Like Sarah Maxwell she'll be there taking care of everyone and everything till she drops dead. I am surprised that JD isn't courting or married. He's getting to an age that even secular guys are known to settle down. He apparently has a house, has a great work ethic, can do lots of things that pay. I hope he courts next--it will be interesting to see a Duggar guy court post sex-fiend Joshie.  Maybe he really does want to be pilot/missionary and that's why he's holding off--trying to raise all the funds he needs and then find a bride willing to do that?

[19 cats and counting]

I think JB is projecting his own weakness when it comes to finding suitors for his daughters.  Derick and Ben both fold under pressure and will never have the courage to stand up to JB.  

Face it, if TFDW is the fame chaser that many think he is then he married Priscilla for an in with the Duggars.  Sure she puts him in their inner circle as Josh's SIL, but do you think he would have gone further in the inner circle and gone for Jana or Jill instead?  (Why else would JB speak at a wedding when it is not one of his kids getting married?)

I'm really wondering about the suitors that were turned down by either JB or the girls.  Especially since he approved Ben.

ETA I'm not sure if Gil would have approved Ben (as is).  He was 18? when he started courting Jessa and doesn't have a job.  I can almost see Gil saying to come back in a few years.

[HighlandCow]

After all the 'we want men not boys who sit around and play video games all day' stuff the girls were spouting in their book 'writing' era, I was gobsmacked that Ben was considered courtship material by anyone other than Jessa's vagina.

[Nu2Duggarville]

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 10:24 AM, ksgranola1 said:

Yup, you summed it up pretty good there, Stevie. I do feel that the Duggars would never accept a courtship from another race. But the Bates boy, Nathen is starting a  courtship w/a girl who is mixed & Kelly & Gil thoroughly embrace her.

What is she a mix of?

[Carol]

IMO Jim Bob doesn't want ATI.  ATI doesn't worship him and he definitely wants that in a son-in-law.  He wants to be master of his own church. 

I don't think he was happy that Josh went to Washington and away from his control and counsel.  I suspect the outing that happened while Josh was there solidified in Jim Bob's mind the dangers of someone leaving the compound(even though Josh was looking to cheat before they moved).  I also wonder if he was shocked that Jill actually did go to Central America.  I would not put it past him to think he could stop it or control the length of time they are there.  No proof other than he is a control freak. 

He has said before that they bought their property with the intent/hope of building separate homes for all his children on it.  Makes my skin crawl. 

[SassyPants]

On April 13, 2016 at 3:07 PM, 19 cats and counting said:

I think JB is projecting his own weakness when it comes to finding suitors for his daughters.  Derick and Ben both fold under pressure and will never have the courage to stand up to JB.  

Face it, if TFDW is the fame chaser that many think he is then he married Priscilla for an in with the Duggars.  Sure she puts him in their inner circle as Josh's SIL, but do you think he would have gone further in the inner circle and gone for Jana or Jill instead?  (Why else would JB speak at a wedding when it is not one of his kids getting married?)

I'm really wondering about the suitors that were turned down by either JB or the girls.  Especially since he approved Ben.

ETA I'm not sure if Gil would have approved Ben (as is).  He was 18? when he started courting Jessa and doesn't have a job.  I can almost see Gil saying to come back in a few years.

Cannot imagine that there was a worse candidate than Ben.

Sorry, not buying it that there was someone less prepared for marriage than an unemployed teenager.

52 minutes ago, Carol said:

IMO Jim Bob doesn't want ATI.  ATI doesn't worship him and he definitely wants that in a son-in-law.  He wants to be master of his own church. 

I don't think he was happy that Josh went to Washington and away from his control and counsel.  I suspect the outing that happened while Josh was there solidified in Jim Bob's mind the dangers of someone leaving the compound(even though Josh was looking to cheat before they moved).  I also wonder if he was shocked that Jill actually did go to Central America.  I would not put it past him to think he could stop it or control the length of time they are there.  No proof other than he is a control freak. 

He has said before that they bought their property with the intent/hope of building separate homes for all his children on it.  Makes my skin crawl. 

Yep.

The Bateses' kids worship at the ATI altar, but the Duggars worship at JB's altar.

[calimojo]

referring to a post upstream,  I actually do think that Gil and Kelly are better at parenting.  This doesn't mean I think they are better people, but their parenting style or whatever produced kids who have a bit more spark, and warmth.   The affection and comfort between the Bates kids with one another and with their parents feels fairly genuine.   The Bates family seems to have more resiliency and ability to adapt to a degree than the Duggars. 

 

But,  make no mistake,  Gil and Kelly are full on IBLP and ATI freaks.  Their values are messed up and they have the same twisted beliefs that other in that cult have.  Gil and likely Kelly,  Both have made some sort of deal with the devil to try to cover up the sexual predator issues within the cult and perpetrated by Gothard.    They  espouse the same LGBT rhetoric and hateful politics.

 

The only reason they seem more benign than the Duggars is that quite frankly, they have better social skills.  JB and Michelle are awkward as fuck. Even without the whackadoo religious and conservative ideology, JB would be awkward as fuck.   And Michelle, well who the hell knows,  They like to portray her as this perky little cheerleader, but we know she suffered from a mild eating disorder and apparently wanted out of her own situation so badly that she married at 17.  JB wasn't a bad looking guy as a teen, but he clearly seems to have not been part of the "in crowd". 

 

Gil and Kelly are superficially more likeable people.  Not better people, but more likeable.  Many terrible people can be quite charming in small doses. 

 

I have no trouble envisioning Kelly and Gil as being well liked in school and college.  Gil was athletic, and Kelly was probably a sweet appearing southern belle.  Probably after people got to know them better the shyster qualities manifested in Gil and Kelly probably showed her judgmental side.  But on the surface, they were probably popular, at least compared to nerdy JB and damaged Michelle. 

 

Speaking of Michelle,  She definitely seems damaged in some way.  Given her history, I think it started young.  And I think the lifestyle has damaged her as well.  Where as Kelly seems very content and happy in her life.  She seems joyous in it.  It is crazy, I know, but she seems well adjusted compared to Michelle.  You could have a conversation with Kelly about various things and if you didn't know her well she might just seem like a nice lady with a lot of kids.  I can't imagine anyone having a conversation with Michelle and not walking away with a "WTF is up with that" look on their face.  Michelle has that deer in the headlights,  light is on but nobody is home look most of the time. 

 

 

 

 

[formergothardite]

4 minutes ago, calimojo said:

The only reason they seem more benign than the Duggars is that quite frankly, they have better social skills.  JB and Michelle are awkward as fuck. Even without the whackadoo religious and conservative ideology, JB would be awkward as fuck.  

I agree, but I think that the better social skills are why they are able to make it look like they are better parents. I don't think that they once ounce better parents than Jim Bob and Michelle. I think they are as distant from their children and just as harsh when it came to discipline, except Kelly might have been harsher with babies than Michelle. But they have good social skills and they are good at reading people, so they were able to quickly figure out what made them look like freaks and hide that part of their life. They were able to adapt to give a better appearance whithout really changing anything.  

I really don't see the "spark" in the Bates kids. They can be rude and have no manners, but the same goes for the Duggar brood. They are outgoing, but I don't think that is a sign that Gil and Kelly were better parents. Especially since Gil is a first class grifter and probably learned long ago that outgoing personable children would bring in more money. 

[SassyPants]

8 minutes ago, calimojo said:

referring to a post upstream,  I actually do think that Gil and Kelly are better at parenting.  This doesn't mean I think they are better people, but their parenting style or whatever produced kids who have a bit more spark, and warmth.   The affection and comfort between the Bates kids with one another and with their parents feels fairly genuine.   The Bates family seems to have more resiliency and ability to adapt to a degree than the Duggars. 

 

But,  make no mistake,  Gil and Kelly are full on IBLP and ATI freaks.  Their values are messed up and they have the same twisted beliefs that other in that cult have.  Gil and likely Kelly,  Both have made some sort of deal with the devil to try to cover up the sexual predator issues within the cult and perpetrated by Gothard.    They  espouse the same LGBT rhetoric and hateful politics.

 

The only reason they seem more benign than the Duggars is that quite frankly, they have better social skills.  JB and Michelle are awkward as fuck. Even without the whackadoo religious and conservative ideology, JB would be awkward as fuck.   And Michelle, well who the hell knows,  They like to portray her as this perky little cheerleader, but we know she suffered from a mild eating disorder and apparently wanted out of her own situation so badly that she married at 17.  JB wasn't a bad looking guy as a teen, but he clearly seems to have not been part of the "in crowd". 

 

Gil and Kelly are superficially more likeable people.  Not better people, but more likeable.  Many terrible people can be quite charming in small doses. 

 

I have no trouble envisioning Kelly and Gil as being well liked in school and college.  Gil was athletic, and Kelly was probably a sweet appearing southern belle.  Probably after people got to know them better the shyster qualities manifested in Gil and Kelly probably showed her judgmental side.  But on the surface, they were probably popular, at least compared to nerdy JB and damaged Michelle. 

 

Speaking of Michelle,  She definitely seems damaged in some way.  Given her history, I think it started young.  And I think the lifestyle has damaged her as well.  Where as Kelly seems very content and happy in her life.  She seems joyous in it.  It is crazy, I know, but she seems well adjusted compared to Michelle.  You could have a conversation with Kelly about various things and if you didn't know her well she might just seem like a nice lady with a lot of kids.  I can't imagine anyone having a conversation with Michelle and not walking away with a "WTF is up with that" look on their face.  Michelle has that deer in the headlights,  light is on but nobody is home look most of the time. 

 

 

 

 

I think despite the religious beliefs and affiliations, the Bateses have done a better job at supporting education and working for living, with regard to their adult kids. Aside from their show, there is an element of "leave and cleave" that we do not see in the Duggar family.

To me, this is more indicative of better parenting, in the form of producing independent, contributing adults, than having 1 daughter who wears pants.

Both families have horrid beliefs. One family allows adults to be adults. The other family has produced a bunch of daddy robots. 

I think the adult Bateses could assimilate to living independent lives, including financially supporting themselves. I do not believe that the same could be said for most, if not all, of the Duggar adults.

 

[Fundie Bunny]

I think the only difference between the duggar and bates family are what they love more. Jim Bob loves control, so he has his family on a short lease. Gil loves money and not earning it, so the less kids depending on him, more money for him.

[calimojo]

Exactly,  This is what I am saying.  At the end of the day, I think the bates kids could be more independent.  Even dependent and mousy Michael was independent enough to stray to IL and TX.  True Josh left home and that ended badly, and Jill is in CA, but I think living off of Daddy and show money.  And I think the CA thing is just a stunt anyway. 

 

And I do see more warmth and spark.  Even among the really little kids.  And relationships between the kids feel more like normal sibling relationships.  You get the sense that some are closer than others and some less so, like Erin and Alyssa.  This happens in normal families too.  As far as discipline,  I think both the Duggars and the Bates do not severely discipline the younger set.  The Bates older kids have remarked on that in their TH's. 

 

None of this means that Gil and Kelly are good people.  I just saw an interview with Trumps daughter who raved about what a great grandpa he is to her kids.  I can believe this but it doesn't mean that I think Trump is a good guy. 

 

I can believe that Gil and Kelly parented better than JB and M in some ways, and still agree that they are all in all cultists who have hateful beliefs, and who tried to squelch claims of sexual misconduct in their revered leader. 

 

Somewhat off topic,  has anyone noticed how much more subdued Tori has been this season?  She used to be very light hearted and borderline obnoxious like Carlin is these days, but in this season,  she is not nearly as visible,  and she seems content to let Carlin do all the talking when they have TH's.  I wonder if she was warned off because she was perceived as too sassy by some,  or if it is  just a sign of her maturing, or if she is unhappy?   She and Carlin seem less close now and it seems more like Carlin and Josie are the family's "it Girls".  

 

[Palimpsest]

On 4/13/2016 at 8:45 AM, stevie said:

@formergothardite Well I really don't want to debate anymore about which family is worse. They're both pretty shitty in my opinion. I do want to say though you have posted your escape story on here so has some other people. I'm currently in school for social work and my dream is to work behavioral and mental health clinic for kids and teens working as a therapist. I've been reading Free Jinger for almost three years now and recently I've thinking after I work for a while in a clinic I've been thinking about maybe I could start some organization or clinic or I don't know what it will be called that would help people who escaped from a cult and give them therapy and help them find resources and help them establish a new life. At the college I go to we work a lot with refugees and as social workers were always trying to find them resources and help them adapt to a new life. I still have three more years of school until I'm done and then it would some years after that to establish a career so it would a while before I can start an organization like that. It's just an idea I have right now though. I was actually wondering you being an escapee if you think that's a good idea?

Not an escapee but a macro MSW.

I think there is a crying need for services for cult survivors.  It is a complex issue and I think it is an area that needs specialized study and training.   If you are serious about wanting to specialize in treating cult survivors then this is the time to look at your electives, the possibility of independent study, and research field education possibilities in that area.  Good luck.

Useful link:  http://www.icsahome.com/home