Duggars Vs. Bates

[Wenny]

5 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

 

I'm guessing she didn't pursue it in Arkansas because her mentor isn't allowed to practice there anymore. I remember someone noticed Jill and Jana weren't listed as apprentices on the state website after that whole situation with Venessa became public (even though they weren't set to expire until last summer). It's possible that she wouldn't be able to get licensed for that reason - but that's just a guess and I honestly don't know.

Venessa can't practice in Tx either or she is illegally practicing. Her license is Null and Void. 

https://vo.ras.dshs.state.tx.us/datamart/detailsTXRAS.do?anchor=74c3b7b.0.0

[Chickenbutt]

I guess I am still confused. We don't actually know what, if any, license/certification Jill has? Since she is not listed on any of the Arkansas sites that I looked at, I am going with she has nothing.

[formergothardite]

23 minutes ago, OrchidBlossom said:

Possibly. I loved when she showed up to Michael's wedding with dyed hair. You could tell her family didn't like that! I assume because dyeing your hair is likely seen as not being grateful for what god gave you (I think Jana Duggar said she tried to dye her hair once and it went wrong and afterward she decided not to be ungrateful anymore). But she does seem to have some little sparks of rebellion, so it could be. I just am very cynical about the possibility (as much as I want it to be).

I really don't think the family has a problem with dyed hair. Kelly once talked on the blog about what Erin did to lighten her hair. I am also of the mind that Gil and Kelly aren't that upset about her wearing pants. Sure they like skirts only, but they married her off into a pants wearing ATI family, so they had to have known there was a very good chance she would start wearing pants too. If they had a big problem with the idea of their daughter wearing pants, they wouldn't have allowed that courtship to take place. 

[Coconut Flan]

Venessa and Texas:

[Wenny]

19 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

I guess I am still confused. We don't actually know what, if any, license/certification Jill has? Since she is not listed on any of the Arkansas sites that I looked at, I am going with she has nothing.

Same here. I've checked the schools, if Jill have a license than I am more then happy to say congrats but I can't find it. Isn't that illegal? I know if I say I am one of our RNs or make it seem like I am a nurse I can get in trouble. 

[OrchidBlossom]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

I really don't think the family has a problem with dyed hair. Kelly once talked on the blog about what Erin did to lighten her hair. I am also of the mind that Gil and Kelly aren't that upset about her wearing pants. Sure they like skirts only, but they married her off into a pants wearing ATI family, so they had to have known there was a very good chance she would start wearing pants too. If they had a big problem with the idea of their daughter wearing pants, they wouldn't have allowed that courtship to take place. 

I actually meant her siblings reactions when I said it was funny, though I got the impression Gil didn't like it that much, his facial expressions were just off when he was looking at her.

I don't think Gil and Kelly have a huge problem with her wearing pants, I never said they did. All I said was that I don't think she simply chose to wear pants, that there was probably an additional "getting permission"/discussion with her husband which, to me, makes it not really rebellious and more just a different choice that is still permissible within ATI.

[paulypepper]

3 hours ago, iweartanktops said:

Well, fuck it! Who needs doctors at all, right? If we all just think happy thoughts, we'll stay healthy. 

 

Thanks to Zoloft that's all I think of, happy thoughts...I should be set!

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, Wenny said:

Same here. I've checked the schools, if Jill have a license than I am more then happy to say congrats but I can't find it. Isn't that illegal? I know if I say I am one of our RNs or make it seem like I am a nurse I can get in trouble. 

Well, the problem with that is the fact that Jill did an online correspondence program that I believe was Gothard approved. I believe the program was based in Texas - so looking at Arkansas schools wouldn't help. 

If Jill claims to be a Certified Nurse Midwife she could get into trouble because she doesn't have the prior education and experience. As far as I know she has never claimed that title - though her family has a nasty habit of exaggerating things and they make it seem like she has the same credentials.

The important thing is that she isn't licensed with the state of Arkansas. She took and passed an exam for the North American Registry of Midwives - I assume that means she could practice in Central America, but it depends on the laws of whatever "dangerous" country they're in. If she wants to practice when they ultimately return stateside she would be required to meet any and all specifications set by the state she wants to practice in.

3 hours ago, Wenny said:

Venessa can't practice in Tx either or she is illegally practicing. Her license is Null and Void. 

https://vo.ras.dshs.state.tx.us/datamart/detailsTXRAS.do?anchor=74c3b7b.0.0

That is some very good (and unexpected) news! Last I had seen she had moved to Texas to keep working - but that was a while ago. Nice surprise!

[Coconut Flan]

I heard a rumor that Venessa was now practicing in Oklahoma where there is no licensing requirement.

[Bethella]

Here's a picture with Jill and her NARM certificate, so she at least passed that. 

[Wenny]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

Well, the problem with that is the fact that Jill did an online correspondence program that I believe was Gothard approved. I believe the program was based in Texas - so looking at Arkansas schools wouldn't help. 

If Jill claims to be a Certified Nurse Midwife she could get into trouble because she doesn't have the prior education and experience. As far as I know she has never claimed that title - though her family has a nasty habit of exaggerating things and they make it seem like she has the same credentials.

The important thing is that she isn't licensed with the state of Arkansas. She took and passed an exam for the North American Registry of Midwives - I assume that means she could practice in Central America, but it depends on the laws of whatever "dangerous" country they're in. If she wants to practice when they ultimately return stateside she would be required to meet any and all specifications set by the state she wants to practice in.

That is some very good (and unexpected) news! Last I had seen she had moved to Texas to keep working - but that was a while ago. Nice surprise!

I found thishttp://www.texasmidwives.com/education/index.asp ATM online midwife program. I am assuming it is because they are govern by the NARM.  I looked into it before going into CMA school. This is the schools program website https://texasmidwiferyschool.com/index.html Is that Jill in the 3rd picture? 

[HighlandCow]

5 hours ago, Wenny said:

I found thishttp://www.texasmidwives.com/education/index.asp ATM online midwife program. I am assuming it is because they are govern by the NARM.  I looked into it before going into CMA school. This is the schools program website https://texasmidwiferyschool.com/index.html Is that Jill in the 3rd picture? 

The file is named "Jill sucessful pap" so I would assume it is.

[Ungodly Grandma]

On 4/5/2016 at 0:26 PM, OrchidBlossom said:

Possibly. I loved when she showed up to Michael's wedding with dyed hair. You could tell her family didn't like that! I assume because dyeing your hair is likely seen as not being grateful for what god gave you (I think Jana Duggar said she tried to dye her hair once and it went wrong and afterward she decided not to be ungrateful anymore). But she does seem to have some little sparks of rebellion, so it could be. I just am very cynical about the possibility (as much as I want it to be).

But curling your hair is ok (b/c Gothard likes it.) It somehow is not being ungrateful for the straight hair God gave you. These people drive me crazy.

[Bushes of Love]

On 05/04/2016 at 2:29 PM, Bad Wolf said:

You have universal healthcare, we don't. Big difference.

I don't know how medical labour works in the US (and as someone without kids I only know labour in the UK by TV and what friends have told me), but in the UK when giving birth (unless you have complications) you only have midwife care throughout the birth. However, midwives over here have to do a 3 year midwife degree and a year or so working in the labour ward of a hospital before they can assist in a birth. Also, if you want a home birth they come out to your house free of charge.

[ksgranola1]

6 hours ago, Bushes of Love said:

I don't know how medical labour works in the US (and as someone without kids I only know labour in the UK by TV and what friends have told me), but in the UK when giving birth (unless you have complications) you only have midwife care throughout the birth. However, midwives over here have to do a 3 year midwife degree and a year or so working in the labour ward of a hospital before they can assist in a birth. Also, if you want a home birth they come out to your house free of charge.

man, what a DEAL!

[Bushes of Love]

18 minutes ago, ksgranola1 said:

man, what a DEAL!

This show is how I got most of my knowledge!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFXqRedFsJQ

[imokit]

6 hours ago, Bushes of Love said:

I don't know how medical labour works in the US (and as someone without kids I only know labour in the UK by TV and what friends have told me), but in the UK when giving birth (unless you have complications) you only have midwife care throughout the birth. However, midwives over here have to do a 3 year midwife degree and a year or so working in the labour ward of a hospital before they can assist in a birth. Also, if you want a home birth they come out to your house free of charge.

As some one who spends time in UK labour wards, getting a home birth depends on two things - being categorised as low risk and resources.  There are some areas which can't supply midwives for home births, and some where if you call up at a bad time (staffing issues) you'll be asked to go the hospital.

That said, we very lucky here, that all midwives are fully qualified to the same standard (all have to do a degree and have at least 40 supervised deliveries) and they're good.  If a young healthy woman gets pregnant, she may not see an OB at all during her pregnancy.  Midwives can manage all basic care (with ultrasonographers to do ultrasounds), and if anything comes up or she has or develops any medical problems, they'll get her seen by a doctor.  Likewise during labour and delivery, doctors are only there if something has gone wrong (or odd - it doesn't need to be wrong for a midwife to get a doctor).

In addition to home births and labour ward births, we have midwife led units, where there are no doctors at all and midwives manage everything themselves.  The rooms tend to be nicer and mothers get more control.  But no epidurals or drips.  They're great because they're usually next door to labour ward, and if something goes wrong, you're close enough for crash teams and emergency trips to theatre.

The american variety of midwife is a bit scary, some are amazing and properly trained, others have different levels of training and some midwives are glorified doulas (we have those too, but patients normally have to find and pay for them on their own).  I know Jill isn't a midwife by English standards, but working out where on the line between doula and fully qualified midwife she is, is not something I've managed to figure.

And @Bushes of Love one born every minute is awesome, and pretty good at showing how labour is for most women.  It doesn't quite capture the madness though  When the ward is full of high risk patients or when everything is happening at once, or doctors running to the emergency alarm from other elsewhere going WHERE'S THE EMERGENCY?,

[Bushes of Love]

34 minutes ago, imokit said:

As some one who spends time in UK labour wards, getting a home birth depends on two things - being categorised as low risk and resources.  There are some areas which can't supply midwives for home births, and some where if you call up at a bad time (staffing issues) you'll be asked to go the hospital.

That said, we very lucky here, that all midwives are fully qualified to the same standard (all have to do a degree and have at least 40 supervised deliveries) and they're good.  If a young healthy woman gets pregnant, she may not see an OB at all during her pregnancy.  Midwives can manage all basic care (with ultrasonographers to do ultrasounds), and if anything comes up or she has or develops any medical problems, they'll get her seen by a doctor.  Likewise during labour and delivery, doctors are only there if something has gone wrong (or odd - it doesn't need to be wrong for a midwife to get a doctor).

In addition to home births and labour ward births, we have midwife led units, where there are no doctors at all and midwives manage everything themselves.  The rooms tend to be nicer and mothers get more control.  But no epidurals or drips.  They're great because they're usually next door to labour ward, and if something goes wrong, you're close enough for crash teams and emergency trips to theatre.

The american variety of midwife is a bit scary, some are amazing and properly trained, others have different levels of training and some midwives are glorified doulas (we have those too, but patients normally have to find and pay for them on their own).  I know Jill isn't a midwife by English standards, but working out where on the line between doula and fully qualified midwife she is, is not something I've managed to figure.

And @Bushes of Love one born every minute is awesome, and pretty good at showing how labour is for most women.  It doesn't quite capture the madness though  When the ward is full of high risk patients or when everything is happening at once, or doctors running to the emergency alarm from other elsewhere going WHERE'S THE EMERGENCY?,

Thanks for clearing up the bits I wasn't sure about. I've not had kids (yet) so my knowledge isn't that great. I really want kids, but I know I wouldn't have a nice, chilled out midwife lead birth. I'm too high risk in too many areas (mental health issues, overweight, and a lot of physical health issues) and that makes me feel sad.

[caszandra]

@Bushes of Love, I can't say what your birth experience would be like but what I can tell you is that I was classed as high risk and was consultant led through my pregnancy and when I went in to labour I went to my local maternity hospital and had one on one midwife care with a doctor popping in every so often just to check how I was doing. I ended up with an emergency C-section due to failure to progress but I have no doubt that my midwife would have delivered my daughter with the Dr on standby if my labour had progressed well. 

[imokit]

@Bushes of Love you might not agree with this, but I'd rather be in your position, then a low risk pregnancy gone wrong at delivery.  You get pregnant, you know you're high risk.  You see a consultant OB during your pregnancy, you get a clear birthing plan of this is what will happen, when.  And then you know the interventions you will get, you also know the contingency interventions and what may happen if things start going wrong.

I've seen enough women, most low risk (some medium/high risk - who should have been taught better) who have a clear birth plan.  They get hearts set on the birth plan. Baby & their body disagree and interventions start happening to keep them safe.  They may consent, because they understand that its needed, but it devastates them because they didn't get that wondrous child birth experience they wanted and a lot of media says.

I'd rather be you, then get a nasty shock if things don't go to plan.  And they often don't, and I've seen women coming back for subsequent children still upset about the failure of their previous birth plan.

and as @caszandra says, you might not be allowed a home birth or a midwife led unit, but it doesn't necessarily mean it won't be a midwife vaginally delivering your baby.   And however you deliver in the UK, a midwife will be there.  Even at C section, midwives are present.  They usually get handed the baby, unless there's a paediatrician present, but even then unless something's wrong the midwife will get it.

[Ungodly Grandma]

54 minutes ago, Bushes of Love said:

Thanks for clearing up the bits I wasn't sure about. I've not had kids (yet) so my knowledge isn't that great. I really want kids, but I know I wouldn't have a nice, chilled out midwife lead birth. I'm too high risk in too many areas (mental health issues, overweight, and a lot of physical health issues) and that makes me feel sad.

It's not black and white, it is very possible to have a chill, happy birth with a doctor in a hospital, I did, and so did many of my friends.

[ksgranola1]

I had a horrible delivery w/my first (US) Drugged, cut, had flashbacks cuz I couldn't remember  the delivery; so I prepared well for #2. BAM! emergency C-section. She's 35 & I'm still not over it.  I've had 2 children & never saw them born. (Grumble) Got an icon for that?

[raisingthebarre94]

On 4/5/2016 at 7:15 AM, VelociRapture said:

Curious to see what you think of this:

http://www.skepticalob.com/2015/09/jill-duggar-dillard-is-not-a-real-midwife-shes-a-cpm-a-counterfeit-professional-midwife.html

Its a blog post written by a Dr. Amy Tuteur - her speciality is OBGYN and she taught at Harvard for a while as well. Her opinion is that Jill Dillard is a fraud because she didn't go through the type of educational program that Certified Nurse Midwives do.

And for the record, most people here don't oppose Midwives completely - we do, however, oppose the type of programs that Fundies (such as Jill) support because they aren't as rigorous AND (most importantly) the Duggars make it sound as if Jill is qualified to help with ANY birth, not just complication free ones. Jill's own birth with Izzy was sketchy at best. We still don't know who led at the birth - it appears Jill, her mother, a few sisters, and a friend were the only ones there as she attempted the Home Birth. Combined with her seeming lack of adequate prenatal care and her poor judgement in deciding to labor as long as she did without realizing there could be complications...

And because of all that there is the potential for serious harm to be done - just look at what happened with Jill's mentor Venessa Giron. She lost her ability to work in Arkansas due to a negligent birth. She simply picked up and moved to another state so she could work there instead. 

That is also the reason why so many of us don't give the Duggars credit for allowing Jill to pursue the program - they half-assed it like they half-ass everything. The Bates do as well, but (again) Jill's chosen field has the potential to cause serious physical harm to other people. Erin pounding away at her piano like it just insulted her honor only harms good taste at times. If one of the Bates kids half-assed any type of healthcare education I promise you people would be calling them out as much as we call out Jill.

ETA: I am genuinely curious what you think of Dr. Tuteur's views by the way. Not trying to be argumentative about how valid becoming a CPM is.

I'm guessing she didn't pursue it in Arkansas because her mentor isn't allowed to practice there anymore. I remember someone noticed Jill and Jana weren't listed as apprentices on the state website after that whole situation with Venessa became public (even though they weren't set to expire until last summer). It's possible that she wouldn't be able to get licensed for that reason - but that's just a guess and I honestly don't know.

Sorry It has taken me a while to answer. I am getting married this weekend (and celebrated our best man's arrival with a margarita tower so I hope this post makes sense). 

I think that the OB/GYN who wrote this article has an unfortunate opinion of CPMs. CPMs are qualified health professionals and OB/GYNs tend to be frightened because we're taking their business even though some of us didn't go through the same traditional education program as them.

I don't want to speak on Jill's specific skills on a midwife because I have never seen her practice. I don't know much about Israel's birth except that she ended up in a hospital in time for a safe cesarean delivery, which is a blessing. I also don't know much about the midwife with whom she apprenticed, but I hope that she found a more suitable role model to finish her education with. 

I'm not sure if Jill has even implied that she is capable of attending any birth, because the definition of midwifery has to do with the normality of birth, and screening high risk cases to the appropriate caregiver. Even nurse-midwives screen out high risk patients. I believe all health providers are beneficial for the roles in which they intend to fill. Doctors like drama and excitement and should be there for the high risk and emergency births. Nurse-midwives have medical training on medication and other modern medicinal treatments seen in hospitals and typically see births with fewer interventions in hospitals. CPMs work with low-risk patients in out of hospital settings and see birth as a natural process, not meant to be interfered with unless necessary. They are trained in neonatal resuscitation, treatment for emergency hemorrhaging, and suturing of vaginal tears, but are also trained to recognize inconsistencies during pregnancy, labor and birth in enough to time to get help from someone who has more training in medicine, like a doctor or surgeon. It's a niche field and should be used for women who want a natural childbirth, and that's not all women. But I will mention that studies have shown that out-of-hospital births are as safe if not safer than hospital births for low-risk patients, that the US spends more per capita than any other nation on maternal health and still has one of the highest maternal death rates of the developed nations, and that the US is one of the only nations that considers nursing to be a prerequisite of midwifery. Many countries consider them separate disciplines, and many countries have a midwife-based maternal healthcare system. I think each woman should have the right to choose which health care option suits her personal situation best, and if you personally won't trust CPMs with your birth, then that's fine. I won't ask to catch your baby. Make your decision! But I don't think it's appropriate to call a field which has accreditation and licensure in half the states in the US "counterfeit." It has it's place in our system, just liek OBs, nurses, nurse-midwives, and every other maternal health care professional. 

I hope that Jill has had the training required, but passing the NARM exam is a pretty good indication that she has the knowledge until she proves us otherwise, and I don't think it's fair to count her own birth. I don't care how prepared you are, nobody can be expected to act as a professional caretaker for themselves while in labor, especially when complications arose. If she didn't have someone professional there for her, then I agree that it was irresponsible. 

For more reading about midwifery, here are some wonderful books:

Spiritual Midwifery - Ina May Gaskin (she has an obstetrical maneuver named after her, and she's a CPM)

Ina May's Guide to Childbirth - Ina May

Listen to Me Good- a memoir of Margaret Charles Smith, a tradition black midwife in Rural Alabama who attended almost 2000 births with great outcomes who eventually had to stop practicing due to Alabama legislation

Baby Catcher- a story of a CNM, but relevant to all forms of maternal health care. One hell of a memoir

Lying In: A history of Childbirth in America

PM me for more if interested.. I'm currently in a midwifery program and have a ton on my own personal reading list. 

I appreciate you reaching out to me for my opinion. I hope that you will find other doctors who have a higher view of the profession of midwifery. I promise they're out there! I also hope that you have every opportunity available to you when/if you give birth.

On 4/5/2016 at 5:31 PM, Wenny said:

I found thishttp://www.texasmidwives.com/education/index.asp ATM online midwife program. I am assuming it is because they are govern by the NARM.  I looked into it before going into CMA school. This is the schools program website https://texasmidwiferyschool.com/index.html Is that Jill in the 3rd picture? 

The midwives who I have talked to have mentioned that this program is one of the better distance learning and non MEAC-approved programs. While looking for affordable programs, it was one recommended to me. I applied to both MEAC and non MEAC programs and I going with a less expensive non MEAC one to become established, and am considering a Masters program in the future, which would also grant me a CM. I applied to a MEAC Masters approved program (one of the most prestigious in the US) but was declined due to an extra competitive applicant pool  They told me to get more experience and reapply next year. But it was 60k a year so it may  be a blessing in disguise that I didn't get accepted this go-around. 

I also have had two years of nursing school, and am graduating with a bachelor's degree from an accredited university this december, so I could have stuck with nursing if I wanted and gone the nurse-midwife route, but my personal birth philosophy and realization that I didn't want to work in a hospital brought me to my current route. I'm not saying that I am any better than the midwives who do not have a university degree, but many people value traditional education, so I want to prove that not all midwives are evangelicals who can't go to college or hippies who don't want to. (Although I am kind-of a hippie and I am really tired of this liberal arts bull$hit but I'm sticking it out because I know if I want to get a Master's degree in the future I will need the piece of paper)

[VelociRapture]

7 hours ago, raisingthebarre94 said:

Sorry It has taken me a while to answer. I am getting married this weekend (and celebrated our best man's arrival with a margarita tower so I hope this post makes sense). 

I think that the OB/GYN who wrote this article has an unfortunate opinion of CPMs. CPMs are qualified health professionals and OB/GYNs tend to be frightened because we're taking their business even though some of us didn't go through the same traditional education program as them.

I don't want to speak on Jill's specific skills on a midwife because I have never seen her practice. I don't know much about Israel's birth except that she ended up in a hospital in time for a safe cesarean delivery, which is a blessing. I also don't know much about the midwife with whom she apprenticed, but I hope that she found a more suitable role model to finish her education with. 

I'm not sure if Jill has even implied that she is capable of attending any birth, because the definition of midwifery has to do with the normality of birth, and screening high risk cases to the appropriate caregiver. Even nurse-midwives screen out high risk patients. I believe all health providers are beneficial for the roles in which they intend to fill. Doctors like drama and excitement and should be there for the high risk and emergency births. Nurse-midwives have medical training on medication and other modern medicinal treatments seen in hospitals and typically see births with fewer interventions in hospitals. CPMs work with low-risk patients in out of hospital settings and see birth as a natural process, not meant to be interfered with unless necessary. They are trained in neonatal resuscitation, treatment for emergency hemorrhaging, and suturing of vaginal tears, but are also trained to recognize inconsistencies during pregnancy, labor and birth in enough to time to get help from someone who has more training in medicine, like a doctor or surgeon. It's a niche field and should be used for women who want a natural childbirth, and that's not all women. But I will mention that studies have shown that out-of-hospital births are as safe if not safer than hospital births for low-risk patients, that the US spends more per capita than any other nation on maternal health and still has one of the highest maternal death rates of the developed nations, and that the US is one of the only nations that considers nursing to be a prerequisite of midwifery. Many countries consider them separate disciplines, and many countries have a midwife-based maternal healthcare system. I think each woman should have the right to choose which health care option suits her personal situation best, and if you personally won't trust CPMs with your birth, then that's fine. I won't ask to catch your baby. Make your decision! But I don't think it's appropriate to call a field which has accreditation and licensure in half the states in the US "counterfeit." It has it's place in our system, just liek OBs, nurses, nurse-midwives, and every other maternal health care professional. 

I hope that Jill has had the training required, but passing the NARM exam is a pretty good indication that she has the knowledge until she proves us otherwise, and I don't think it's fair to count her own birth. I don't care how prepared you are, nobody can be expected to act as a professional caretaker for themselves while in labor, especially when complications arose. If she didn't have someone professional there for her, then I agree that it was irresponsible. 

For more reading about midwifery, here are some wonderful books:

Spiritual Midwifery - Ina May Gaskin (she has an obstetrical maneuver named after her, and she's a CPM)

Ina May's Guide to Childbirth - Ina May

Listen to Me Good- a memoir of Margaret Charles Smith, a tradition black midwife in Rural Alabama who attended almost 2000 births with great outcomes who eventually had to stop practicing due to Alabama legislation

Baby Catcher- a story of a CNM, but relevant to all forms of maternal health care. One hell of a memoir

Lying In: A history of Childbirth in America

PM me for more if interested.. I'm currently in a midwifery program and have a ton on my own personal reading list. 

I appreciate you reaching out to me for my opinion. I hope that you will find other doctors who have a higher view of the profession of midwifery. I promise they're out there! I also hope that you have every opportunity available to you when/if you give birth.

The midwives who I have talked to have mentioned that this program is one of the better distance learning and non MEAC-approved programs. While looking for affordable programs, it was one recommended to me. I applied to both MEAC and non MEAC programs and I going with a less expensive non MEAC one to become established, and am considering a Masters program in the future, which would also grant me a CM. I applied to a MEAC Masters approved program (one of the most prestigious in the US) but was declined due to an extra competitive applicant pool  They told me to get more experience and reapply next year. But it was 60k a year so it may  be a blessing in disguise that I didn't get accepted this go-around. 

I also have had two years of nursing school, and am graduating with a bachelor's degree from an accredited university this december, so I could have stuck with nursing if I wanted and gone the nurse-midwife route, but my personal birth philosophy and realization that I didn't want to work in a hospital brought me to my current route. I'm not saying that I am any better than the midwives who do not have a university degree, but many people value traditional education, so I want to prove that not all midwives are evangelicals who can't go to college or hippies who don't want to. (Although I am kind-of a hippie and I am really tired of this liberal arts bull$hit but I'm sticking it out because I know if I want to get a Master's degree in the future I will need the piece of paper)

Thanks for replying! First things first -

Congratulations on your wedding!!! Have a wonderful day!

When you get the chance, I do recommend looking into Jill's birth - I'd be interested in seeing what your opinion would be on it. From what I remember, the worst judgement call was the fact that she and a friend were the only two present who had any midwife experience and neither of them were certified to practice; they only had apprentice experience. That right there is a massive red flag because she was in labor for 70 hours (according to her) after her water broke and tested positive for something (though she may have had an IV with antibiotics during labor) - so it's not like she didn't have time to have someone come help.

As for her mentor, Venessa Giron, there have been threads discussing her. Here's one:

From what I know, she attended the birth of a woman named Tiffany and Strep B was involved. From what I've read, they knew Tiffny had tested positive - but Venessa never told her she needed antibiotics nor did she make sure they were available during labor. The baby apparently almost died as a result (not sure how the baby is now, but I'm pretty sure they lived.) The state of Arkansas revoked Venessa's license due to negligence and she's been bouncing around somewhere in Texas. She may currently be somewhere in Missouri or Oklahoma - states that have much more lax standards on who can practice then Arkansas apparently. 

It was around the time that her license was revoked that Jill and Jana were also removed from the list of Midwife apprentices. So I'm honestly not sure if she would be qualified to be licensed in Arkansas or not. Doesn't matter much until they return home I guess.

I'm sure there are excellent midwives out there. I highly doubt Venessa or Jill fall into that category though. From what I've read there is just something really off about how they practice and the decisions they make.

Also Jill apparently went through a Gothard approved educational program - so that immediately makes me question how much she really knows on the topic and how accurate the information presented was. 

(And if I ever get pregnant and manage to carry to term I will be giving birth in a Hospital with the OBGYN I currently see - my only pregnancy ended in miscarriage this past February and she was phenomenal in helping me deal with it all.)

[Ali]

@VelociRapture In the People magazine article about Jill's birth, there were claims that there was meconium in the water and that she was Group B strep positive. IV antibiotics during labor are recommended when a woman tests positive for Group B strep. Meconium is a babies first poop. It can be a sign the baby is in distress if it is found in the water and be an issue if the baby aspirates it.