Duggars Vs. Bates

[ksgranola1]

Last night's Bates' show was an eye opener. Nathan went to NY to surprise his girl. And dragged along several brothers, mom & pop, Erin AND her infant baby. All showed up at the door in the Bronx. In typical Bates fashion, they took over the house & "decorated" it for the girl's return from a concert. Mind you it was already decorated for X-mas. And I didn't think Gothard gave his approval for mixed marriages. The girl is mixed. So that was refreshing. They hugged frontally often, took a horse carriage ride w/o the dreaded chaperone,*K&G talked the horse driver to watch them.* He asked her to court. Before that, they were dating openly when he went up to NY.

I'll be very surprised if that baby doesn't get sick. Nathan said it was  'very cold' & they had no coat on that baby, just a thin blanket & one of those stretchy suits. At one point, Gil took off his coat & wrapped the baby in it. There was pouring rain, so the blanket was on the baby's head.

And all the while, Nathan made it plain that HE was not leaving Tenn. Now this is a city girl. And I think she's a musicion. She's not going to be happy  'down on the farm.' They brought her back to Tenn. w/them where she was overwhelmed by another huge family gathering but it was nice to see open affection w/o the threat of "SIN!"

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2 hours ago, Ali said:

@VelociRapture In the People magazine article about Jill's birth, there were claims that there was meconium in the water and that she was Group B strep positive. IV antibiotics during labor are recommended when a woman tests positive for Group B strep. Meconium is a babies first poop. It can be a sign the baby is in distress if it is found in the water and be an issue if the baby aspirates it.

Give Jill a little credit; she herself noticed the meconium and that's when she went to the hospital. They don't rush you to the OR today like they did in my day. Some will flush out the uterus w/saline, & let the labor progress. They suction the baby before it's fully out. Since the baby's heart  must have been steady, apparently they saw no reason to not let her try a trial of labor. And it bought them a little time to get the antibiotics into her.  I think the doc knew it was going to end in a section, even before the sono that showed he was breech. He was just too big.

[iweartanktops]

@ksgranola1, in the Bates thread we think Nathan and Ashley were already courting and that was done for the cameras. After Zach having a failed courtship it makes sense they would wait to televise until the relationship is solid. It's possible they're engaged at this point. 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, ksgranola1 said:

Last night's Bates' show was an eye opener. Nathan went to NY to surprise his girl. And dragged along several brothers, mom & pop, Erin AND her infant baby. All showed up at the door in the Bronx. In typical Bates fashion, they took over the house & "decorated" it for the girl's return from a concert. Mind you it was already decorated for X-mas. And I didn't think Gothard gave his approval for mixed marriages. The girl is mixed. So that was refreshing. They hugged frontally often, took a horse carriage ride w/o the dreaded chaperone,*K&G talked the horse driver to watch them.* He asked her to court. Before that, they were dating openly when he went up to NY.

I'll be very surprised if that baby doesn't get sick. Nathan said it was  'very cold' & they had no coat on that baby, just a thin blanket & one of those stretchy suits. At one point, Gil took off his coat & wrapped the baby in it. There was pouring rain, so the blanket was on the baby's head.

And all the while, Nathan made it plain that HE was not leaving Tenn. Now this is a city girl. And I think she's a musicion. She's not going to be happy  'down on the farm.' They brought her back to Tenn. w/them where she was overwhelmed by another huge family gathering but it was nice to see open affection w/o the threat of "SIN!"

Give Jill a little credit; she herself noticed the meconium and that's when she went to the hospital. They don't rush you to the OR today like they did in my day. Some will flush out the uterus w/saline, & let the labor progress. They suction the baby before it's fully out. Since the baby's heart  must have been steady, apparently they saw no reason to not let her try a trial of labor. And it bought them a little time to get the antibiotics into her.  I think the doc knew it was going to end in a section, even before the sono that showed he was breech. He was just too big.

The only issue is we don't really know when they headed to the hospital. In one People article, it states that they noticed Israel was in distress at 48 hours and they then headed for the hospital:

http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20920979,00.html

In a second article, that shifts. She says she saw the meconium staining at 20 hours and that's when they head to the hospital:

http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20915253,00.html

So there's a full 28 hours that just disappear in between those two versions of the story. That's a big chunk of time! 

According to at least one of those articles, she was also already on antibiotics before going to the hospital. So letting her labor longer didn't give them an opportunity to get those started like you said (if the Doctors felt it was safe to let her continue to labor though, then that's fine.)

3 hours ago, Ali said:

@VelociRapture In the People magazine article about Jill's birth, there were claims that there was meconium in the water and that she was Group B strep positive. IV antibiotics during labor are recommended when a woman tests positive for Group B strep. Meconium is a babies first poop. It can be a sign the baby is in distress if it is found in the water and be an issue if the baby aspirates it.

Thanks! I knew there was more to it then I was remembering. 

[Ali]

1 hour ago, ksgranola1 said:

Give Jill a little credit; she herself noticed the meconium and that's when she went to the hospital. They don't rush you to the OR today like they did in my day. Some will flush out the uterus w/saline, & let the labor progress. They suction the baby before it's fully out. Since the baby's heart  must have been steady, apparently they saw no reason to not let her try a trial of labor. And it bought them a little time to get the antibiotics into her.  I think the doc knew it was going to end in a section, even before the sono that showed he was breech. He was just too big.

I did not remember the part about the article saying she went to the hospital after they discovered meconium. I was glad to read that because I am aware that it might not mean it is an urgent situation, but it does warrant extra monitoring. There was meconium discovered in the water when I was in labor too. Although the article said that they discovered it at hour 20 of a 70 hour labor. I really hope that the author exaggerated or got it wrong.

4 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

The only issue is we don't really know when they headed to the hospital. In one People article, it states that they noticed Israel was in distress at 48 hours and they then headed for the hospital:

http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20920979,00.html

In a second article, that shifts. She says she saw the meconium staining at 20 hours and that's when they head to the hospital:

http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20915253,00.html

So there's a full 28 hours that just disappear in between those two versions of the story. That's a big chunk of time! 

According to at least one of those articles, she was also already on antibiotics before going to the hospital. So letting her labor longer didn't give them an opportunity to get those started like you said (if the Doctors felt it was safe to let her continue to labor though, then that's fine.)

Thanks! I knew there was more to it then I was remembering. 

I had forgotten about that missing chunk of time and 28 hours is a huge block of time where something could be wrong. I really hope the author of the article got it wrong, especially if the highest educated midwife there was a student midwife Meconium in the water needs someone experienced and knowledgeable to determine if medical intervention is needed. It could be fine for the woman to continue to labor naturally or a section could be needed.

[patsymae]

The Bates do come off as much more personable, because they are more savvy. Also, they are actually just around one another, people just like themselves and the camera crew. If they were performing in front of a live audience of people with green hair and nose rings not sure they could keep it up.

I think at least since the housebuilding episode and its aftermath, when JBoob kept rubbing Gil's nose in it, Gil and Kelly have been chomping at the bit to beat the condescending Duggars at their own game, and they are succeeding. Had the 19th kid. Got their own TV show. Got on the Freak Cult board. And if a poster here is correct, Gil and Kelly will be the featured speakers at Big Sandy and JBoob and JBreeder aren't even on the speaker list. Rebounded from a (humiliating) failed courtship with fundie royalty with their reps intact. Married off some kids to important people in their circle and even beyond (Alyssa's FIL).

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Kelly is "fellowshipping" with JBreeder at Big Sandy because I think she is going to "Bless Her Heart" till the cows come home, and I have no doubt she can out passive-aggressive JBreeder any day.

[Coconut Flan]

Gil and Kelly indeed are listed as speakers at Big Sandy and at Sacramento.  They're also going to be live at Georgia and Wisconsin.  David Waller is speaking along with another fairly young man named Gabriel Cleator who may only be live in Texas.

[VelociRapture]

@patsymae-

Just want to note that Daniel Webster, Alyssa's FIL, is very much a part of the circle the Bates run in. They've been IBLP for years, though they seem to follow more relaxed standards in certain areas (such as clothing choices.)

[Arete]

What does "qualified health professional" even mean?  No, doctors are not scared of CPMs because they are losing business, they are scared of CPMs because they put mothers and babies at far greater risk than hospital births.

i cannot even fathom why women settle for "Health professionals" whose training is obviously inferior to CNMs and OBs.

[roddma]

It's a stretch to sa

y home birth for low-risk is safer. Furthermore, if I recall correctly correctly,Ina Gaskin let  her own child die during a homebirth. They're anti-gov and anti-hospital.

[Ungodly Grandma]

8 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

@patsymae-

Just want to note that Daniel Webster, Alyssa's FIL, is very much a part of the circle the Bates run in. They've been IBLP for years, though they seem to follow more relaxed standards in certain areas (such as clothing choices.)

Typical of a politiician, to make the effort to appear normal at least.

[ksgranola1]

22 hours ago, Ali said:

I did not remember the part about the article saying she went to the hospital after they discovered meconium. I was glad to read that because I am aware that it might not mean it is an urgent situation, but it does warrant extra monitoring. There was meconium discovered in the water when I was in labor too. Although the article said that they discovered it at hour 20 of a 70 hour labor. I really hope that the author exaggerated or got it wrong.

I had forgotten about that missing chunk of time and 28 hours is a huge block of time where something could be wrong. I really hope the author of the article got it wrong, especially if the highest educated midwife there was a student midwife Meconium in the water needs someone experienced and knowledgeable to determine if medical intervention is needed. It could be fine for the woman to continue to labor naturally or a section could be needed.

The Jill Duggar Birth Show; Jill talked about noticing the meconium & said that's when they knew they had to go to the hospital. And she mentioned the midwife being there, too.

[Coconut Flan]

And yet after seeing meconium she also said she took another dose of castor oil in the mistaken idea she'd deliver faster.  Her own midwife has said she wasn't called.  Jill must have been referencing her fellow student who was there.

[Ali]

4 minutes ago, ksgranola1 said:

The Jill Duggar Birth Show; Jill talked about noticing the meconium & said that's when they knew they had to go to the hospital. And she mentioned the midwife being there, too.

I never watched the episode. I do know it was aired after the article was released and received a lot of backlash. I think we can conclude that only the people present during the birth really knows what happened.

[SilverBeach]

On 4/5/2016 at 9:51 PM, raisingthebarre94 said:

Direct-entry midwives have a vast amount of knowledge and wisdom and don't have their "pathology" blinders on and believe that birth is a natural physiological process.

Physicians and nurses midwives don't necessarily have "pathology" blinders on. I delivered in a hospital and never felt that I was doing something pathological. I felt that not availing myself of all that modern health care has to offer would not have been in the best interest of my child. Childbirth is a natural process that can be fraught with peril and has killed many women and babies since the dawn of time. The US infant mortality rate is still too high for a nation as rich as this one. Pregnancies, labor, and delivery are low risk until they aren't, and that can happen very quickly.  I am haunted by the baby Wren link up thread. Six minutes.

I get your support and defense of direct entry midwives, but I agree with @Palimpsest. 

Also, there are 19 Duggar siblings and what, 7 adults? Jill is hardly a shining example of having career opportunities. Being a nurse or nurse midwife was not an option because she could not go to a non fundy school. 

To each her own, I would only hope that due diligence would be exercised when selecting a source of care/ delivery venue. I am not a risk taker (not for unnecessary things), some are more comfortable with risks and should choose accordingly, as long as their eyes are wide open regarding what those risks are.

[patsymae]

18 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

@patsymae-

Just want to note that Daniel Webster, Alyssa's FIL, is very much a part of the circle the Bates run in. They've been IBLP for years, though they seem to follow more relaxed standards in certain areas (such as clothing choices.)

I meant that he has influence outside of Gotharddom not just in the cult.

[sophie10130]

So these women who say they are midwives but don't have the correct certification or license-- do they get paid to be at these births? They lady we think was at Jessa's birth but was not shown, did the Duggars pay her to be there?

[roddma]

Take this with a grain of salt  but I read somewhere it was Miss Teresa the one from Anna's home birth who attended Jessa's birth. She bails when things start going wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if she was there.

[slp]

Legally, if I am correct about AR law, anyone can be at your birth if you want.  They can't actually *catch* the baby, but they can attend as a 'friend'.  I believe that Teresa is licensed as a doula, and they could pay her for that.  As long as the father 'catches' the baby, it's totally legal. 

 

[ksgranola1]

I can't even imagine Ben "catching" Spurge. In the first few minutes after the baby was born, he looked a little green around the gills.

[Wenny]

On 4/10/2016 at 4:18 AM, roddma said:

It's a stretch to sa

y home birth for low-risk is safer. Furthermore, if I recall correctly correctly,Ina Gaskin let  her own child die during a homebirth. They're anti-gov and anti-hospital.

Ina Gaskin is a very crude experienced midwife. She has a way of being crass in situations that need it. Her son died from being premature, they chose not to seek a hospital or NICU. 

[stevie]

Well the thread as drifted off into health care but I just want to comment on the Duggars vs. Bates. Well I have only watched one or two episodes of 19 Kids and Counting same with Bringing Up Bates. I get most of my information about them from Free Jinger. I mostly focus my attention on the kids because Jim Bob and Michelle and Gil and Kelly Jo all make me very angry. I also like to look at the kids because they had no choice to be part of this cult they were born into it and I can kind of relate to that not because I was raised in a cult but because I was born into a very dysfunctional family. My father is an alcoholic and is very emotionally abusive. My mom is also emotionally abusive towards me and my brother. My mom also has multiple sclerosis and I've basically taking care of her since I was about 11 years old because that's when the multiple sclerosis started to progress and not able to take care of herself as much. I like to evaluate myself and how I turned out based on how they raised me. I also like to evaluate the older Duggar kids and Bates kids and see how they turned out based on how their parents raised them.

Anyways, back to comparing the Duggars and the Bateses. If were talking about similarities they have the same twisted beliefs about gender roles, headship, and all that stuff. They're also all probably racist, we know they're homophobic and transphobic and they are probably phobic to anyone else that is not white. They both have sex abuse scandals, go to the same seminars, and all that stuff. The Bates though are more sociable people and tend to they're beliefs to themselves and are not preachy. If we are focusing on the older kids in both families and how they turned out I feel like Bates kids are able to function as adults, live in society and grow a life for themselves. We all know Lawson's has been supporting is family for years. I feel like he's able to go out into society and do things for himself. Zach is a police officer and is able to provide for his family. Michael's, Erin's and Alyssa's husbands all have jobs. Erin teaches kids piano. Michael goes to community college. The older kids in the Bates family all have been to form a life for themselves.

Now the older kids in the Duggar household don't seem to be able to do that. I mean Josh was first working at the car lot and then because of the reality show was able to get a job for a hate group. He was nowhere near qualified for that job but just got it because of the show. Then the scandals came out and he had to quit that job and will probably now be have to work for Jim Bob for the rest of his life. Jill can't seem to function without being surrounded by people all the time and having people their to help. It's been discussed on FJ that she was very clingy to Derrick when they got married and people speculate that Derrick quit his job because Jill told him too so she wouldn't have to be alone. Now neither of them have jobs and are running around Central America preaching to people and grifting. Jill doesn't seem to functioning in Central America without having her sisters around all the time. Whenever these people get back from Central America I feel like Derrick will start working for Jim Bob. Then there's Jessa and Ben who no jobs unless you count whatever Ben does for Jim Bob. They are probably going to be living off Jim Bob for the rest of their lives. John David seems to be the only one being productive and functioning as an adult he may or may not be even living at home. The rest of the older kids I don't see them having a courtship and leaving the house. I don't know why I just don't. If they end up getting married they will probably be living in a house Jim Bob owns. I feel like the Duggar kids are more stunted emotionally and educationally than the Bateses.

I know people say if the Duggar's didn't have a reality show Jim Bob and Michelle would have let the kids get jobs. I don't know why but I feel like that wouldn't have happened because I feel like Jim Bob wants them under this very strict control and wants to control them financially and control every part of them and their lives. And Jim Bob is only going to choose husbands and wives that are not strong enough to stand up for themselves and submit to everything he says. I think he wants that much control over his kids. I don't know I feel like the Duggar kids are living in Jim Bob's world. I don't feel like Gil and Kelly Jo are trying to do that. In my opinion that's a big difference between the Bates and the Duggars

[ksgranola1]

Yup, you summed it up pretty good there, Stevie. I do feel that the Duggars would never accept a courtship from another race. But the Bates boy, Nathen is starting a  courtship w/a girl who is mixed & Kelly & Gil thoroughly embrace her.

[VelociRapture]

6 hours ago, ksgranola1 said:

Yup, you summed it up pretty good there, Stevie. I do feel that the Duggars would never accept a courtship from another race. But the Bates boy, Nathen is starting a  courtship w/a girl who is mixed & Kelly & Gil thoroughly embrace her.

Except the Duggars did. Marjorie Jackson is Latina. The courtship didn't work out, but it still happened.

[formergothardite]

I'll be honest I feel for the Duggar children because I'm not a social person and come off atrocious on camera. I look miserable in the parts of my wedding video  I wasn't, I just don't come off well when being recorded.  If you stuck me up next the super happy, outgoing Bates I would look like a socially inept lump of dullness. 

I do think that not being naturally outgoing, being exploited on television as freaks at impressionable ages and then getting used to the reality tv fame and money has stunted the Duggars emotionally, but I'm not sure that it wouldn't have done that to the Bates. Sure Lawson is all outgoing, but he is really letting the fame go to his head, just imagine if he had had a ten years of this? 

I think Gil and Kelly are controlling in a different way than the Duggars. Their kids marry within the cult(except for Zach and she has seemed to assimilated into the IBLP culture) and pretty much only do cult approved things.   They control their children in a different way, than the Duggars, but they are still controlling parents, they just know how to put on a good show.  

[stevie]

51 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I think Gil and Kelly are controlling in a different way than the Duggars. Their kids marry within the cult(except for Zach and she has seemed to assimilated into the IBLP culture) and pretty much only do cult approved things.   They control their children in a different way, than the Duggars, but they are still controlling parents, they just know how to put on a good show.  

Oh I think Gil and Kelly Jo are controlling too. I feel like Jim Bob and Michelle are just more controlling. Right now, he is controlling the income of Jessa and Ben and Josh and Anna (probably Jill and Derrick but I'm not sure though.) He's the reason they all have a place to live, are able to buy food, diapers etc. All the other kids that "work" work for him and I don't see that changing if they end up getting married. I see all his kids under his thumb for the rest of his life and I think he wants it that way. To me he's like trying to control every aspect of their lives and keep them in his own little bubble. Gil and Kelly Jo are very controlling too but they don't have a financial control over them and their kids aren't living in houses owned by them. Michael and Alyssa don't even live in the same state. I mean Gil and Kelly Jo are definitely trying to keep them in the cult and control the activities that they do but I feel like financial control is whole different level. As I said my dad is an alcoholic when he is drunk he threatens to stop paying our rent and give us food money. When he is sober he would never say that stuff but it's scary to think if he did stop paying we would be homeless and have no food (my parents are divorced and he pays my mom alimony and child support so being homeless and have no food wouldn't affect him). That's why I think financial control is on a higher level. I don't think Jim Bob would ever do what my dad threatens though.