Duggars Vs. Bates

[formergothardite]

So Gil is indebted to Jimmy Boob for the rest of his life...........

I kind of doubt Gil sees it that way or is even bothered by it. Gil has pretty much made it through life by getting people to give him stuff and do stuff for him. Building a bigger house is just one thing in a long line of things Gil has gotten from others as gifts. Jim Bob can get in line because Gil is indebted to a hell of a lot of people.

[TVADDICT]

New to this site.  Have the Bates ever spoken out about the Duggar scandals? It seems like they have been distancing themselves. 

[THERetroGamerNY]

They're friends. No evidence that I see of any "distancing". A few of the Duggar girls recently attended a Bates wedding.

The families are two peas in the Gothard pod.

[busdrivingmom]

32 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

They're friends. No evidence that I see of any "distancing". A few of the Duggar girls recently attended a Bates wedding.

The families are two peas in the Gothard pod.

Most likely cause they have no other choices.  Since the kids' social interactions are so limited and to other IBLP members, they have to take what they can get.  Not like they get to meet kids through normal childhood interactions.  Al least on the Duggar Show the kids seemed so happy to go to the homeschooling conference every year, they would get a chance to hang out with other kids.  

[RosyDaisy]

Same shit different wardrobe as far as I'm concerned.

[roddma]

8 hours ago, TVADDICT said:

New to this site.  Have the Bates ever spoken out about the Duggar scandals? It seems like they have been distancing themselves. 

THe only thing they said was they are praying for the Duggars.

 

 

6 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

Same shit different wardrobe as far as I'm concerned.

Agree

[formergothardite]

9 hours ago, TVADDICT said:

New to this site.  Have the Bates ever spoken out about the Duggar scandals? It seems like they have been distancing themselves. 

No, but keep in mind that the Bates also have a sex abuse scandal and it involves a lot more people. They seem to be okay with covering up abuse and trying to manipulate victims.  

[Ungodly Grandma]

On 2/14/2015 at 10:45 AM, Kira said:

 

 

 

I wouldn't call the Kellers, Wallers, Juebs, and Arntds fundie royalty. The Mawells?

Not even sure the Duggars are fundie royalty. Famous, but are they "inner circle?"

[nastyhobbitses]

Let's break it down by category -- the Fundielympics, if you will:

Grifting -- JB and Gil are neck-and-neck for the title. No clear winner. But everyone loses. If we're bringing in other fundies, though, Jill Rodrigues is the surprise winner for this prestigious category.

Sex Abuse Cover-up -- Gil is better at preemptive PR to cover up his involvement in the fucked up shit going on in IBLP and he does have the advantage that as far as we know, he wasn't covering up things happening to his own kids. "Winner": Bates Family

Fundie Couture -- Winner: Bates Family.

Cute Babies -- Tie. They're all very cute.

Bigotry/Regressive Political Stances -- We've been through the whole Nathan Bedford Forrest thing with the Bateseseses like 20 billion times. But Josh worked for a legit hate group (until they decided that cheating on your wife is way worse than wanting to curtail people's basic human rights) and Michelle did that transphobic robocall. "Winner": Duggar Family

Creepy Dads -- Jim Bob "wins" by a landslide, despite a rousing effort from Gil.

So overall I'd say that they're about even, except that the Bates girls dress better and the Duggars are more of a hot mess (though I predict that some messiness will happen in the Bates clan soon enough).

[Bad Wolf]

Good breakdown, except I think Josh "quit" FRC after the molestation scandal, not the Ashley Madison. Yeah, I'm being picky. @nastyhobbitses

[nastyhobbitses]

Just now, Bad Wolf said:

Good breakdown, except I think Josh "quit" FRC after the molestation scandal, not the Ashley Madison. Yeah, I'm being picky. @nastyhobbitses

I stand corrected. Ashley Madison came out after they moved back to Arkansas, IIRC.

[iweartanktops]

5 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

Let's break it down by category -- the Fundielympics, if you will:

Grifting -- JB and Gil are neck-and-neck for the title. No clear winner. But everyone loses. If we're bringing in other fundies, though, Jill Rodrigues is the surprise winner for this prestigious category.

Sex Abuse Cover-up -- Gil is better at preemptive PR to cover up his involvement in the fucked up shit going on in IBLP and he does have the advantage that as far as we know, he wasn't covering up things happening to his own kids. "Winner": Bates Family

Fundie Couture -- Winner: Bates Family.

Cute Babies -- Tie. They're all very cute.

Bigotry/Regressive Political Stances -- We've been through the whole Nathan Bedford Forrest thing with the Bateseseses like 20 billion times. But Josh worked for a legit hate group (until they decided that cheating on your wife is way worse than wanting to curtail people's basic human rights) and Michelle did that transphobic robocall. "Winner": Duggar Family

Creepy Dads -- Jim Bob "wins" by a landslide, despite a rousing effort from Gil.

So overall I'd say that they're about even, except that the Bates girls dress better and the Duggars are more of a hot mess (though I predict that some messiness will happen in the Bates clan soon enough).

Don't forget Gil sent his daughters on trips with Gothard himself! 

[THERetroGamerNY]

Just now, iweartanktops said:

Don't forget Gil sent his daughters on trips with Gothard himself! 

Ughhhhh.

Like having a picnic with Hitler. *shiver*

[19 cats and counting]

I'm trying to figure out the difference between the two families' dating rules.

It seems that the Bates allow traditional (but restricted) dating before the couple decides to court (see Nathan and Ashley).  Nathan's admitted they've been boyfriend/girlfriend for a few months before deciding to court.  Do the Duggars have any sort of pre-courting, dating, getting to know each other period?

It seems that Derick and Jill and Josh and Anna only had a handful times together IRL before he put a ring on it.  It just seems that neither kidult Duggar couple has the chemistry and bond that any Bates couple does.  I feel that Nathan and Ashley know each other more than Jill and Derick did on their wedding day.

[Ungodly Grandma]

6 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

Good breakdown, except I think Josh "quit" FRC after the molestation scandal, not the Ashley Madison. Yeah, I'm being picky. @nastyhobbitses

That is a hugely important detail to me, too. I cannot believe those who feel that the worst offence was Ashley Madison.

[Ungodly Grandma]

2 hours ago, iweartanktops said:

Don't forget Gil sent his daughters on trips with Gothard himself! 

Pimping them out for prestige? Not literally, but not far from it.

[ksgranola1]

I've seen them "group date." Nathen's girl lives in NY.They had lots of supervision when she comes to visit but I don't know what the arrangement is when he goes there. They haven't mentioned it. I'm assuming she's a fundie. Gil & Kelly made a real pest of themselves w/Michaela and...what'shisname. They followed them around the property when he came to visit, but hung back some so they could talk, not something I'd see in the TTH. But then when they announced they would like to court, Gil & Kelly sat down at a picnic table & explained the "rules" to them, like they didn't know it already. Chaparones, never be alone in a room together, etc, etc. Even when you know all that, it's still horrifying to hear. And when the Bateses went to Chicago to talk to his parents, Kelly was obnoxious about setting a date once the boy asked to marry her. She whipped out a datebook & everything. I would have been kicking her under the table.

[19 cats and counting]

Could Josiah's failed courtship could have been prevented with a long enough 'dating' or pre courtship period where they got to know each other a little more?

I know Kelly said the only rule they have is that they can't be in a room alone together.  But it seems like JB would put a Howler or Lost Girl in between them if they were sitting on a couch together.  It also seems the Bates chaperones are allowed to give the couple space (walking 10 feet behind them) and not having a preteen hijack the conversations.

I've also noticed the Bates are more liberal when it comes to touching.  There's a pic from the preview of next week's episode where Ashley's head is on Nathan's shoulders.  I've also noticed they've already front hugged and held hands.  

I also wonder what about their other communications.  Do the parents need to be included on texts?  I know Nathan and AShley talk all the time, are their phone/video calls private?

Jill made a remark about 'being in love with a guy she's never met."  I'm not sure the exact timeline, but IIRC they were engaged shortly after he returned from Nepal.  

Of the Duggar couples, it's unclear how Ben/Jessa met, Jill/Derick were set up by JB, and only Josh and Anna met at a ATI event.  I think most of the long-distance Bates couples (all but Zach/Whit were at one point) met at ATI events (Chad/Erin, Brandon/Michael) or on mission trips (John/Alyssa? Nathan/Ashley).  But it seems they talked to each other before the parents.

[19 cats and counting]

A picture's worth 1000 words.   Look at body language and facial expressions.

(Before they were official--- one's from August at Michael's wedding and the other October)

And an official courting couple

 

[OrchidBlossom]

On 2/12/2015 at 3:39 PM, HarleyQuinn said:

Didn't the Bates' essentially force Whitney into fundamentalism as well? If i recall, she wasn't fundie, wore pants, and had a job before she met Zach?

 

I don't know a lot about the Bates to be honest. I didn't realize that Zach apologized for kissing Whitney. Makes me wonder how they feel about Alyssa and her jeans and tank tops. lol

Alyssa married the son of a fundie senator with ties to IBLP. Senator probably needs his extended family to look normal and likeable. Headship (son of senator) probably "asked" (more likely told) Alyssa that she needed to wear more modern clothes to fit the expected image. Alyssa may love to follow that directive of course, that's up to her. But as far as the Bates are concerned Alyssa is just following the guidance of her headship, so it's probably fine.

[OrchidBlossom]

On 3/16/2015 at 9:09 AM, jarona said:

Ideologies aside, I think the Bates family is a bit more hip than the Duggar family. I seriously have to believe that Kelly did NOT partake in blanket training as did Michelle. The Bates kids just seem too happy and loved. They are also more independent that the Duggars. I don't think Gil and Kelly have the creepy control over their brood that Michelle and JB do. Alyssa is in Florida--and I love the fact that Alyssa has strict rules about how her siblings have to behave. She really has seemed to put her foot down instead of the wishy-washiness and "sweetness" that the Duggars have. I do believe Alyssa knows how to measure out a decent helping or 20 of rice! Erin's issues with pregnancy make her and her husband more humane as well. I also enjoy the interaction with Kelly and Gil and the younger kids--they are hands on and they look like they actually enjoy and have a good time with their kids.

I'm hoping the Bates' ratings go up much higher than the Duggar's --it would kill Jim Bob! But moreso, I hope there is NEVER a Duggar/Bates union!

Or the Bates are smart enough not to admit to blanket training like the Duggars did by endorsing the Pearls. But I have a hard time believes Gil got on the board for IBLP if he didn't adhere to ALL of their important doctrines, including corporal punishment and blanket training.

[Palimpsest]

3 hours ago, 19 cats and counting said:

I'm trying to figure out the difference between the two families' dating rules.

It seems that the Bates allow traditional (but restricted) dating before the couple decides to court (see Nathan and Ashley).  Nathan's admitted they've been boyfriend/girlfriend for a few months before deciding to court.  Do the Duggars have any sort of pre-courting, dating, getting to know each other period?

It seems that Derick and Jill and Josh and Anna only had a handful times together IRL before he put a ring on it.  It just seems that neither kidult Duggar couple has the chemistry and bond that any Bates couple does.  I feel that Nathan and Ashley know each other more than Jill and Derick did on their wedding day.

The Batesesses are much faster learners than the Duggars, especially when it comes to PR.  Courtships and blanket training included.

The Bateses learned a lesson from Zach's proposal of courtship to Sarah Reith.  She accepted the idea, on camera, perhaps because she didn't want to humiliate the poor sweaty nervous guy publicly.

Then Sarah ran for the hills.

Kelly stated that they were rethinking their strict courtship rules.  They were going to allow a longer "getting to know you" phase.  Failed courtships that have been prayed about so much and are Daddy approved are very embarrassing.  Especially when they were televised and you can't just wipe all evidence from your blog - like Steve Maxwell did to Elizabeth Munck/Joseph. And Sarah Smith/ Christopher.

Zach met Whitney and they have confessed to a bit of unchaperoned kissing and cuddling prior to marriage.

It is such a pity that Zach and Whitney are so apologetic about that.  I'd think much more of them if they had said, "So why is that such a big deal?  At least we had time to get to know each other unchaperoned and a little snogging showed us that we are sexually compatible."

The Bateses and the Duggars stage those (rather repulsive and overly family involved) courtship and proposal scenes.  Goodness only knows what goes on behind the scenes.  

The Bateses do seem less inhibited about side hugs.  BFD.

[RosyDaisy]

One can wear pants, tank tops, have only a few kids and still be crazy fundie. These are ones to be afraid of.

[Toothfairy]

The bates scare me more than the Duggars. At least the Duggars show how fucked up they are. The Bates hide it. Their family comes off as sweet, likeable and normal to outsiders. This is dangerous because it pulls people into their cult. 

[THERetroGamerNY]

One can wear pants, tank tops, have only a few kids and still be crazy fundie. These are ones to be afraid of.

Reminds me of a line from The Addams Family, when Wednesday didn't dress for Halloween. She said "I'm a homocidal maniac. We look like everybody else."