Duggars Vs. Bates

[Palimpsest]

9 minutes ago, iweartanktops said:

Yep. I can't imagine anyone reading through those documents and still defending Gil. But then didn't someone read it and say they would remain neutral until the suit is ruled on or whatever? 

No.  I don't think that person said s/he had read it.  It was just an "innocent until proven guilty" type comment.  Sort of like Whoopi and Cosby until she was forcibly edumacated by TPTB because she was looking pretty damn stupid.

But yes, I cannot imagine anyone who actually read through that lawsuit could still knee-jerk defend Gil Bates.

I can't take seriously any opinions from people who have not educated themselves about Gothard, IBLP - and the lawsuit any longer.  We are not talking about a TV show.  We are talking about a dangerous and abusive cult that has damaged thousands of people over many years.

A cult in which Gil Bates has a leadership role.  And has a TV show that promulgates those dangerous beliefs to the gullible.

It isn't funny.

[Criscat]

I think as several posters have said, that the problem with the bates is that while they have awful beliefs, they are more careful about what they say and do in public...in other words, they understand they have a sense of what will and will not be acceptable to "regular people." The Duggers lack this, plus scandals, so they come across as worse than the bates...when really it's all the same. The bates might like each other more, but that doesn't make the beliefs any better.

[Palimpsest]

15 minutes ago, Criscat said:

I think as several posters have said, that the problem with the bates is that while they have awful beliefs, they are more careful about what they say and do in public...in other words, they understand they have a sense of what will and will not be acceptable to "regular people." The Duggers lack this, plus scandals, so they come across as worse than the bates...when really it's all the same. The bates might like each other more, but that doesn't make the beliefs any better.

The Bateses are inner circle and infinitely more clever than the Duggars.  That is why they are even more dangerous.

I getting tired of repeating this.  So sue me.

[formergothardite]

It would be one thing if it was just stating that they are just as bad as the Duggars, but they are smart enough to hide the crazy, but people keep acting like they are better than the Duggars and making excuses for them, which makes me wonder if people truly understand what is going on with the Bates. I don't know how anyone could even read a recap of the lawsuit and walk away thinking that Gil is a good person. 

[Mothership]

@formergothardite and @Palimpsest  I agree with both of you that the Bates are scarier than the Duggars in their heavy involvement with Gothard and that they deliberately present themselves better and therefore hide the cult.

That being said, I think you're beating up a bit on the other posters. I think most posters are just considering what is shown on the shows and their social media, not what is known from other sources. Be pissed off at the Bates and Duggars and their ilk and certainly remind the posters of what we know beyond the shows, but I hadn't even posted here and was even hesitant to say this for fear of being "yelled" at.  At least that's the tone that I"m sensing. I apologize if that wasn't your intent.

[calimojo]

I really appreciate this topic and as a person who would much rather be forced to watch the Bates family over the Duggar Family,  these posts are great.

From a purely entertainment value,  The Bates kids are more endearing and seem more free and spontaneous than any of the Duggar kids.   The kids seem honestly closer and more like typical siblings than do the Duggar kids, and it seems like they enjoy a more connected relationship with their parents than the Duggars. 

 

But,  I think it is very important to understand and to remember that these people are likely just as, if not more embedded into Gothardism than the Duggars.  And Gil, in his role on the board had to have been aware of the sexual abuse and cooperated with covering it up and trying to intimidate the victims into recanting. 

 

I think it is important to realize that even if the Duggars were not religious fanatics,  they would still likely be socially awkward and their family dynamic would be similar to what it is, because Michelle and Jimbob are odd people.  Jimbob was probably always a socially awkward odd ball, and Michelle was probably always a passive aggressive follower.    Neither of them were well educated or very bright in the traditional sense of the word. 

 

And, if the Bates were not religious fanatics, they would probably still be outwardly warm and socially comfortable people.  They have more education and perhaps that gives them better resiliency and adaptation skills as well as less paranoia about the outside world.  . 

So when we now look at the them thru the lens of the religious fanaticism and cult that they both ascribe to,  we aren't seeing that one family is better than the other, so much as one family is just blessed with naturally more comfortable social skills and adaptive skills, that allows them to learn from the years of observing the other family's public life.    Gil and Kelly, have the advantage here, both in their temperament and in their timing of entering the public life after they have gotten to observe and learn from the Duggars. 

 

Jimbob and Michelle, are odd ducks.  Now Jimbob obviously has some sort of smarts as he has been able support his family and gain a sizable fortune, but he and Michelle have not been smart enough to learn from their mistakes.  Even when they try to seem more "hip" and spontaneous they fall flat because the whole family suffers from the same social awkwardness that defines the parents.  Perhaps more so because they have been so narrowly socialized in their developmental years. 

 

People were tuned into the Duggars at first because they were an anomaly.  A huge family with what appeared to be very obedient but contented children.  The way they lived their life,  their organizational skills, etc was fascinating to the public.  But The Duggars never really wanted any cracks to show.  We were allowed to see just enough to support their assertion that their rigid and strict parenting produced great results.

 

With the Bates,  the fascination with the logistics of how a big family runs is really not the point.  They tried that with their first show, but people weren't interested because we already had that with the Duggars.  Instead,  with the second series the emphasis was to be the antidote to the rigid and ultimately boring Duggars.  They focused on the personalities, the fun, the imperfections from the start.  They show the kids teasing one another and even the parents, they show that there are minor squabbles and upsets,  they even show the older kids teasing the parents about spoiling the younger kids.  They downplay the family hierarchy the headship and show Kelly and Gil talking like equals over things like planning a shower or a garden, etc. 

 

If I were forced, to chose between one or the other to watch,  The Bates are more palatable to watch, where as the obvious dysfunction on the Duggars is more interesting in a clinical observational way.  If I   were forced to have to spend the weekend with one of the families, I would choose the Bates, just because they kids seem more animated and easier to talk to.  Trying to hold a conversation with Jana seems like it would be painful, where as with little effort you could probably get a Carlin, Josie, Lawson, Tory or Nathan to keep you entertained.   And while I agree that Gil is guilty of the coverup, it is also quite possible that the kids knew nothing about any of that.  Kelly might also not have known, given that the business of the board was run by men, and telling the wives about it, might not have been allowed. 

 

I do hope that Gil's involvement with the board and covering things up becomes well known and that the bates eventually lose their show.  I know this will be more of a financial hardship for them than the Duggars losing the show because I don't think Gil has a lot of other sources of income like JimBob has.  But,  it really would be better for all if the shows end.  Their cult is dangerous and putting kids on reality TV rarely works out well for them in the end.

 

 

[formergothardite]

10 minutes ago, Mothership said:

That being said, I think you're beating up a bit on the other posters. I think most posters are just considering what is shown on the shows and their social media, not what is known from other sources.

And this is one of the huge, huge problems. People are just believing the show and aren't investigating what the Bates actually represent. But if a poster is trying to justify Gil's involvement in covering up abuse, they actually DO know more than what is on the show and have looked at other sources.  

I tried to be nice the first 200-300 times someone gushed over how the Bates are nothing like the Duggars and came up with excuses for the bad behavior of Gil and Kelly. At this point I'm just tired of people either not educating themselves or educating themselves but still deciding to create excuses for things like covering up abuse. I know people who were really, really hurt by IBLP and the abuse cover up, I'm just sick and tired of people trying to justify what Gil did. 

5 minutes ago, calimojo said:

Kelly might also not have known, given that the business of the board was run by men, and telling the wives about it, might not have been allowed. 

Just from what I have heard, there is a very good chance Kelly was in the know too. Plus, Gothard wouldn't have picked Gil if he wasn't pretty sure Kelly was also okay with the covering up of abuse. He wouldn't want to risk a wife finding out and blowing the whistle on things. Board members have left, but none of them have said they left over being asked to cover up abuse. Most of them gave vague reasons. I could be that some did get in there and realize how bad things were and decided not to be a part of it, but if this is the case they also didn't do anything to stop the abuse. So basically to get on the BoD a man and his wife have to have pretty bad morals. 

[calimojo]

You are probably right,  Kelly probably did know or at least had an inkling. 

 

Again,  I think the main difference between the two families is the surface likability.  The Bates have better social skills and the advantage of learning from the Duggars what to avoid doing.  The Duggars have piss poor social skills, and were always viewed as odd.  Had all the kids been saddled with the looks of JD,  I don't think they would have had such a following.  I really think the fact that the older 5 girls all turned out pretty is what kept the show going.  But after a couple of weddings and grandkids got dull, the show would have been gone on its own. The Scandal is actually responsible for keeping them in the public eye over the past year.

The show's ratings were starting to tank, and Jessa's wedding fetched fewer  views than Jill's and no doubt the next wedding would have fetched fewer still.  People were beginning to lose interest and while babies and weddings are fun,  when that is all they had to offer, it was wearing thin. 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, Mothership said:

@formergothardite and @Palimpsest  I agree with both of you that the Bates are scarier than the Duggars in their heavy involvement with Gothard and that they deliberately present themselves better and therefore hide the cult.

That being said, I think you're beating up a bit on the other posters. I think most posters are just considering what is shown on the shows and their social media, not what is known from other sources. Be pissed off at the Bates and Duggars and their ilk and certainly remind the posters of what we know beyond the shows, but I hadn't even posted here and was even hesitant to say this for fear of being "yelled" at.  At least that's the tone that I"m sensing. I apologize if that wasn't your intent.

No one is being beat up on. To be honest, I'm really surprised at just how patient @formergotharditeand @Palimpsesthave been while explaining things.

I would assume people posting here have some sort of regular access to the Internet. I don't think it's unfair to say that people should be willing to do a bit of research before stating their opinion as fact. And if a poster continually defends the actions and beliefs of these people they need to accept that they're going to get called out for it. We are a site that discuses the flaws of fundamentalism - not ignore the very real and dangerous beliefs of certain families because they dress nice or seem friendly.

[iweartanktops]

1 minute ago, VelociRapture said:

No one is being beat up on. To be honest, I'm really surprised at just how patient @formergotharditeand @Palimpsesthave been while explaining things.

I would assume people posting here have some sort of regular access to the Internet. I don't think it's unfair to say that people should be willing to do a bit of research before stating their opinion as fact. And if a poster continually defends the actions and beliefs of these people they need to accept that they're going to get called out for it. We are a site that discuses the flaws of fundamentalism - not ignore the very real and dangerous beliefs of certain families because they dress nice or seem friendly.

Or because they've moved out of their parents house after marrying someone within the cult. 

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, Mothership said:

@formergothardite and @Palimpsest  I agree with both of you that the Bates are scarier than the Duggars in their heavy involvement with Gothard and that they deliberately present themselves better and therefore hide the cult.

That being said, I think you're beating up a bit on the other posters. I think most posters are just considering what is shown on the shows and their social media, not what is known from other sources. Be pissed off at the Bates and Duggars and their ilk and certainly remind the posters of what we know beyond the shows, but I hadn't even posted here and was even hesitant to say this for fear of being "yelled" at.  At least that's the tone that I"m sensing. I apologize if that wasn't your intent.

Yes.  And the bolded is is exactly the problem.  As @formergothardite has said.

My intent was to try to get people to think beyond what is shown on the TV shows and social media.  My intent is to point out that these are not accurate depictions of what is going on.

My intent is to tell some (not all) posters that perhaps they should think a little before they spout off rather facile opinions based solely on the TV show and Instagram - and pay better attention to what other posters are saying.  We have quite a few informed survivors here, and their opinions should be respected.  Instead some posters have been very rude to them.  Perhaps you haven't seen those posts?

So yes, I am frustrated.  Very frustrated by people who appear determined to resist doing this.  We are not a fan site nor are we a site that has historically been apologists for the negative aspects of extreme fundamentalism - just because some of them have managed to get TV shows and look cute on TeeVee.

Look, I don't suffer fools gladly nor do I have much patience with people who refuse to educate themselves when presented with opportunities to do just that.  That is what FJ exists to do.  Do i have to mention yet again that FJ is not a Duggar or Bates family fan site?

Thanks @VelociRapture.  You posted just as I was about to hit submit!

[RosyDaisy]

I have zero sympathy for Bates supporters. Making excuses for them after reading the lawsuit and other documentation out there is the same as supporting abuse and is unconscionable.

[Palimpsest]

25 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

No one is being beat up on. To be honest, I'm really surprised at just how patient @formergotharditeand @Palimpsesthave been while explaining things.

I would assume people posting here have some sort of regular access to the Internet. I don't think it's unfair to say that people should be willing to do a bit of research before stating their opinion as fact. And if a poster continually defends the actions and beliefs of these people they need to accept that they're going to get called out for it. We are a site that discuses the flaws of fundamentalism - not ignore the very real and dangerous beliefs of certain families because they dress nice or seem friendly.

Heck, if people can't be bothered to do their own research or look around for other relevant threads on FJ - we can even provide links.  I've even done that when people ask.

[19 cats and counting]

The Duggars were always portrayed as a freak show.  When I first heard about them (read a news article about Johannah's birth) I wrote a blog post on MySpace (yes I'm dating myself, but that was 2005 for you) and used the terms 'spay' and 'neuter' when talking about JB and M.  I also said I wanted an update on the family in 5 years to see if their oldest kids went to college or became functioning adults.  Little did I know they'd become a reality show.

Of all the episodes I think they most emphasize the freak show in Josh and Anna's wedding (and courtship/engagement, especially with the hand sex). 

When the Bates first visited the Duggars, they were even more of a freak show.  The whole family could have fit in on the set of Little House on the Prairie (even the boys, dressed as cowboys).  One of the boys made a comment about a car belonging to a drug dealer and another mentioned the evils of the internet.   I can remember Amy's snarking on them. Even though their beleifs are similar (not 100% alligned as the Duggars also view JB in the same light) they slowly evolved.  I haven't watched a full episode of either of their shows.  

This I will say about them.  A (former) friend had extra Christmas cards in 2014 and found their address on their website and sent them one.  Kelly actually did write back to her.  (She didn't do this with the Duggars so who knows if they would).

There are 21 members of the family.  I don't approve of Gil's actions at all.  But I don't associate the other 20 people with one man's actions (especially when talking about fluff topics).  Does thinking a baby is cute mean I approve of the kid's grandfather's actions?  There's a good chance that none of the kids even know.  (Maybe Michael or Erin due to who they married but that's it).

The Duggars also covered up sexual abuse, but in their case the abuser was in their household as were most victims.  I'm not going to associate Johannah or Josiah with Josh or JB's actions either.  

Difference between the two families is that one lets their kids become functioning adults (mostly upon marriage) and then allows them to set their own rules (I don't think Jessa could wear jeans and tank tops even if Ben allowed it and she wanted to).  The other treats their daughter in law (the mother of 4 of their grandchildren) (who's clearly paying the price for her husband's actions) like a child and puts her in a dorm room with elementary school aged girls.

If I was in the grocery store and ran into Ben and Jessa, I'd feel they'd preach fire and brimstone at me and condemn me to hell.   If I ran into Michael and Brandon, I feel they'd leave me alone and just go about their day.  Maybe one would preach at me, but they'd probably be nice about it.

[lascuba]

You know, I don't even think such research would be necessary if people could just like the show/personalities without making the leap that charm must mean that these people's beliefs and actions aren't just as vile as that of every other IBLPer. Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should do at least some reading up on these families and their cults; it's just that I think a lot of these conflicts could be avoided if people didn't equate personality to ethics. 

[nickelodeon]

What do the Bates really have to offer us that's worth overlooking their wacko religious practices? Put away the IBLP and they're pretty much exactly like any gaggle of bland Just Married Y'all sorority girls/douchey guys with guitars from Tennessee. If you find these guys fascinating, just wait til you get a load of my Facebook feed! Monogrammed belongings and awkward "Wonderwall" covers everywhere, and these folks didn't even have to silence any rape victims!

[iweartanktops]

26 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Difference between the two families is that one lets their kids become functioning adults (mostly upon marriage) and then allows them to set their own rules (I don't think Jessa could wear jeans and tank tops even if Ben allowed it and she wanted to).

See where I bolded? Do you think that's not a problem? Do you think that it's totally normal how Whitney and Zach went to confess their sin of kissing to their parents? 

How is one a functioning adult if they feel that they can't leave home until marriage? Or that they can't get a real education and a career as a woman? 

[THERetroGamerNY]

What do the Bates really have to offer us that's worth overlooking their wacko religious practices?

Well, they do offer us a last name that is the same as Norman Bates... So if a drama series was made based on them, with Norman as the 20th kid, and his mom in place of Kelly Bates, I'd totally watch that. Family house would just be a barn...

Or you can put the Bates' logo on the Hotel one...

[CreationMuseumSeasonPass]

15 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

Well, they do offer us a last name that is the same as Norman Bates... So if a drama series was made based on them, with Norman as the 20th kid, and his mom in place of Kelly Bates, I'd totally watch that. Family house would just be a barn...

Or you can put the Bates' logo on the Hotel one...

I don't know you @THERetroGamerNY, but I love you!

[TuringMachine]

The thing for me that makes me "like" the Bates more, or I guess rather makes me dislike them less, is a couple of little things, mainly regarded the mothers. I mean both families are involved in the same dangerous cult, both parents have worked to minimize / cover up sexual abuse, and both families have likely used abusive pearls discipline methods, but Kelly actually seems to like being around and interacting with her children past their infancy. Plus, as far as I know, she has never talked about how women are responsible for mens' bad thoughts or actions through their clothes in front of her sexual abuse victim daughters.

[servants-heart]

The ability of the Bates' to hide their beliefs behind successful media portrayal is pretty scary when compared to the Duggars, who (especially JB and Michelle) come across as nutters. However, I don't understand how people equate Alyssa's pants-wearing to her slowly removing herself from the cult. Her instagram is clearly very cleverly designed to make her appear as normal as possible, as so many have already stated. It really is just good PR to disassociate her FIL's politics from the cult, even though they are heavily involved.

I find it unbelievable how so many people in the general populous are sucked in by all this. I also don't understand how both these families have gained so much fame when their lifestyles and behaviour scream creepy and bizarre. I guess it does take a bit of delving beneath the surface to discover what's really going on behind the scenes, but ugh . So strange to me the lengths that people will go to to defend these families.   

    

8 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

The thing for me that makes me "like" the Bates more, or I guess rather makes me dislike them less, is a couple of little things, mainly regarded the mothers. I mean both families are involved in the same dangerous cult, both parents have worked to minimize / cover up sexual abuse, and both families have likely used abusive pearls discipline methods, but Kelly actually seems to like being around and interacting with her children past their infancy. Plus, as far as I know, she has never talked about how women are responsible for mens' bad thoughts or actions through their clothes in front of her sexual abuse victim daughters.

As mentioned by others above, Kelly is just way more savvy when it comes to portraying her family in a good light. As opposed to Michelle, who imo seems to be increasingly psychotic as time goes on. You can't seriously listen to Michelle speak and think that she, or what she says, is normal. Kelly covers it up way better but they're coming from the same belief system. 

[Imagine20]

People also need to remember that the Bates have PR people helping them direct every public move they make. Those tweets and pictures and folksy posts are written and executed with the specific goal of making them appear likeable. The same thing with the TV show: it's edited and re-created to make them appear in the best possible light.   There's a reason they don't talk about the cult, and that's because people might look into it and start to wonder about what's really lurking under the surface. When people bring up Gil's board position, some just assume he's nothing but that good ol' boy and great dad seen on the show, and how could he possibly have tried to cover up Gothard's sick behavior! 

Anything that creates controversy is scrubbed and forgotten or rectified later. 

It's like the fact that people forget about their "Patriotic Room" (or whatever they called it) when others have concerns they may be racists. The pictures have been scrubbed from the Bates site and all but forgotten to many and they made sure her sister was on the show... which conveniently gives them deniability when anyone brings up that topic.

[SilverBeach]

8 hours ago, ksgranola1 said:

You know, being a member of a board like ILPB, Gil might well have objected to the coverup of Gothard's gross behavior but  was in the minority & he just had to go along w/the group's position

And then again, maybe Gil had no such objection. He can resign from the board anytime, and this is a big deal worth resigning over if you disagree.

[servants-heart]

@Imagine20 I just looked up the Patriot Room thing  Doesn't surprise me at all, but omg!! How are these people on TV?! 

[JordynDarby5]

1 hour ago, servants-heart said:

@Imagine20 I just looked up the Patriot Room thing  Doesn't surprise me at all, but omg!! How are these people on TV?! 

That's the same question I had for the Duggars for years. Even before the scandals came out. Michelle admitted to handing off her babies when they were six months old to her daughters, the daughters doing all of the work including raising their own siblings, and they barely educate their kids. They didn't even hide it.