Duggars Vs. Bates

[Mela99]

Si and Marj look robotic next to Nathan and Ashley.

[actuallyjessica]

13 hours ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Could Josiah's failed courtship could have been prevented with a long enough 'dating' or pre courtship period where they got to know each other a little more?

I know Kelly said the only rule they have is that they can't be in a room alone together.  But it seems like JB would put a Howler or Lost Girl in between them if they were sitting on a couch together.  It also seems the Bates chaperones are allowed to give the couple space (walking 10 feet behind them) and not having a preteen hijack the conversations.

I've also noticed the Bates are more liberal when it comes to touching.  There's a pic from the preview of next week's episode where Ashley's head is on Nathan's shoulders.  I've also noticed they've already front hugged and held hands.  

I also wonder what about their other communications.  Do the parents need to be included on texts?  I know Nathan and AShley talk all the time, are their phone/video calls private?

Jill made a remark about 'being in love with a guy she's never met."  I'm not sure the exact timeline, but IIRC they were engaged shortly after he returned from Nepal.  

Of the Duggar couples, it's unclear how Ben/Jessa met, Jill/Derick were set up by JB, and only Josh and Anna met at a ATI event.  I think most of the long-distance Bates couples (all but Zach/Whit were at one point) met at ATI events (Chad/Erin, Brandon/Michael) or on mission trips (John/Alyssa? Nathan/Ashley).  But it seems they talked to each other before the parents.

On her blog, Kelly spoke about different rules each couple at the time had before marriage.

IIRC:

Erin & Chad did not hold hands until engagement, and chose to include family members in their text conversations.

Zach & Whitney seemed to hug and hold hands before engagement and then I got the impression they stopped - possibly after the kissing happened and they didn't want any more temptation. I believe their texting was private until that point, too, but maybe private again after engagement.

Alyssa & John hugged, held hands and texted privately from the beginning of their relationship.

Michael & Brandon hugged and held hands before engagement, but I'm not 100% sure of what their stance on texting was. Leaning towards not private.

I think I also remember Kelly stating that all couples had the ability to make private phone calls to their spouses.

Hope this helps!

[formergothardite]

The Bates(with Gil's position and how he treated abuse) have caused more harm to more people. They are also able to cover up the crazy to make it appealing. So, IMO, they are a bit worse than the Duggars and 100 times more dangerous. All the side hugs and hand holding before marriage can't make up for the fact that they are trying to make evil look good, and do a better job at it than the Duggars. 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, actuallyjessica said:

On her blog, Kelly spoke about different rules each couple at the time had before marriage.

IIRC:

Erin & Chad did not hold hands until engagement, and chose to include family members in their text conversations.

Zach & Whitney seemed to hug and hold hands before engagement and then I got the impression they stopped - possibly after the kissing happened and they didn't want any more temptation. I believe their texting was private until that point, too, but maybe private again after engagement.

Alyssa & John hugged, held hands and texted privately from the beginning of their relationship.

Michael & Brandon hugged and held hands before engagement, but I'm not 100% sure of what their stance on texting was. Leaning towards not private.

I think I also remember Kelly stating that all couples had the ability to make private phone calls to their spouses.

Hope this helps!

I don't think the Keilen's held hands until they were engaged. I think I remember them saying something about it on the show, but I could be wrong. They did hug though.

 

17 hours ago, 19 cats and counting said:

I'm trying to figure out the difference between the two families' dating rules.

It seems that the Bates allow traditional (but restricted) dating before the couple decides to court (see Nathan and Ashley).  Nathan's admitted they've been boyfriend/girlfriend for a few months before deciding to court.  Do the Duggars have any sort of pre-courting, dating, getting to know each other period?

It seems that Derick and Jill and Josh and Anna only had a handful times together IRL before he put a ring on it.  It just seems that neither kidult Duggar couple has the chemistry and bond that any Bates couple does.  I feel that Nathan and Ashley know each other more than Jill and Derick did on their wedding day.

I feel like I'm saying this a lot lately. But I'll say it again -

I think the biggest reason for any differences between these families is likely the fact that the Duggars had in-house sexual assault to deal with - something the Bates don't seem to have experienced (at least I hope they didn't.) Yeah, Gil helped conceal sexual assaults, but he didn't have to deal with the horrible reality of finding out his child assaulted their sibling(s) and then have to deal with the resulting investigation and coverup. As such, the Bates parents may feel they have the ability to be a bit more relaxed in a way the Duggar parents don't.

It's possible the strict adherence to draconian courting rules is due to Josh's assaults - in the parents' minds they may be thinking if you can't trust your own son with his siblings why would you trust outsiders?

I have to wonder too if some of the Duggar kids might be a bit glad to have stricter rules as well. There's so much pressure placed on them to stay pure and Godly - having the extra restrictions might comfort them because it provides another level of accountability and protection from temptation. I'm sure that not all the kids would feel that way, but it's possible some might.

[actuallyjessica]

I feel like I'm saying this a lot lately. But I'll say it again -

I think the biggest reason for any differences between these families is likely the fact that the Duggars had in-house sexual assault to deal with - something the Bates don't seem to have experienced (at least I hope they didn't.) Yeah, Gil helped conceal sexual assaults, but he didn't have to deal with the horrible reality of finding out his child assaulted their sibling(s) and then have to deal with the resulting investigation and coverup. As such, the Bates parents may feel they have the ability to be a bit more relaxed in a way the Duggar parents don't.

It's possible the strict adherence to draconian courting rules is due to Josh's assaults - in the parents' minds they may be thinking if you can't trust your own son with his siblings why would you trust outsiders?

I have to wonder too if some of the Duggar kids might be a bit glad to have stricter rules as well. There's so much pressure placed on them to stay pure and Godly - having the extra restrictions might comfort them because it provides another level of accountability and protection from temptation. I'm sure that not all the kids would feel that way, but it's possible some might.

https://thebatesfamily.com/2014/01/love-in-the-air/

There's pics of them holding hands while courting and then there's a comment reply that says:

"Dear Kelly,

They give side hugs. We said they could also hug for photos when parents are there or for special occasions. They decided to hold hands at courtship. They’re praying about waiting to hold hands anymore until engagement or to continue. I’m not sure what they’ll decide. Erin waited until engagement and said it really gave her something to look forward to. We’ll be supportive either way. We do advise them to save their first kiss for marriage and to stay pure. Brandon is 24 and Michael will be 24 in 2 weeks. Love, Kelly"

[ksgranola1]

You know, being a member of a board like ILPB, Gil might well have objected to the coverup of Gothard's gross behavior but  was in the minority & he just had to go along w/the group's position.

I seem to remember JB saying Ben had been coming to their church & came over after to sit on the couch w/Jessa w/the whole damn family around them. I don't remember seeing hide nor hare of Ben before he came to ask JB/M to court. Boy, was THAT awkward. I don't even think Ben took his hat off.

[iweartanktops]

9 minutes ago, ksgranola1 said:

You know, being a member of a board like ILPB, Gil might well have objected to the coverup of Gothard's gross behavior but  was in the minority & he just had to go along w/the group's position.

 

I'm sorry but, no. If he objected to the cover-up of sexual abuse and rape, as a grown ass man, he could have spoken out! By keeping his mouth shut, he's complicit in the cover-up. 

[Arete]

15 minutes ago, iweartanktops said:

I'm sorry but, no. If he objected to the cover-up of sexual abuse and rape, as a grown ass man, he could have spoken out! By keeping his mouth shut, he's complicit in the cover-up. 

Preach it to the congregation!

[quiverofdoubt]

57 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

https://thebatesfamily.com/2014/01/love-in-the-air/

There's pics of them holding hands while courting and then there's a comment reply that says:

"Dear Kelly,

They give side hugs. We said they could also hug for photos when parents are there or for special occasions. They decided to hold hands at courtship. They’re praying about waiting to hold hands anymore until engagement or to continue. I’m not sure what they’ll decide. Erin waited until engagement and said it really gave her something to look forward to. We’ll be supportive either way. We do advise them to save their first kiss for marriage and to stay pure. Brandon is 24 and Michael will be 24 in 2 weeks. Love, Kelly"

Oh dear. What a thing to look forward to! how utterly overwhelmingly completely exciting!

On a serious note: this just shows me how much they make marriage about the physical side of things. She's not looking forward to an engagement for the sake of the relationship like most people who are thrilled to be engaged because it means they are one step closer to committing to someone they love. Oh no, she's looking forward to a physical act her and the boy will finally be allowed to do. Something most people would consider trivial, actually.  And marriage? that's super exciting because ...sex!  but after the excitement of that wares off, what's left?  (not talking about her specifically, but fundy relationships in general).

[iweartanktops]

Just now, Arete said:

Preach it to the congregation!

Hahaha! 

Seriously, I don't know how else to explain it to people. We're not talking about $5 missing from the till, here! It's also not "gross behavior". It's sexual abuse, rape, harassment, etc., of MINORS. There is not one legitimate excuse for Gil Bates' silence. Zero. 

[formergothardite]

41 minutes ago, ksgranola1 said:

You know, being a member of a board like ILPB, Gil might well have objected to the coverup of Gothard's gross behavior but  was in the minority & he just had to go along w/the group's position.

I seem to remember JB saying Ben had been coming to their church & came over after to sit on the couch w/Jessa w/the whole damn family around them. I don't remember seeing hide nor hare of Ben before he came to ask JB/M to court. Boy, was THAT awkward. I don't even think Ben took his hat off.

The people who started objecting to the things going on in IBLP, left the board. People like Gil were, LAST YEAR, trying to manipulate one of the victims into meeting in private with the person who abused them.  Gil is one nasty, vile human and people need to stop trying to make excuses for him. 

[nickelodeon]

1 hour ago, actuallyjessica said:

They’re praying about waiting to hold hands anymore until engagement or to continue.

What a spiritual and ethical dilemma!! Oh lord give us all the strength to cling to you in the face of these crucial life choices!!!!

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, ksgranola1 said:

You know, being a member of a board like ILPB, Gil might well have objected to the coverup of Gothard's gross behavior but  was in the minority & he just had to go along w/the group's position.

I seem to remember JB saying Ben had been coming to their church & came over after to sit on the couch w/Jessa w/the whole damn family around them. I don't remember seeing hide nor hare of Ben before he came to ask JB/M to court. Boy, was THAT awkward. I don't even think Ben took his hat off.

For the love of little puppies!  He could have simply resigned from the board if he didn't agree!  Several board members did leave, although we don't know exactly why.

Instead he went along with a biased "investigation," participated in a cover-up, and agreed that bullying letters should be sent to the plaintiffs. 

I see others got there first.

 

[formergothardite]

What sort of fucking spell has Gil put on people that they want to make up excuses for his wretched behavior? 

[Palimpsest]

1 minute ago, formergothardite said:

What sort of fucking spell has Gil put on people that they want to make up excuses for his wretched behavior? 

I have no bloody idea!  Apparently covering up serial and institutionalized sexual abuse is perfectly understandable if you are Alyssa Bates Webster's father. 

[formergothardite]

1 minute ago, Palimpsest said:

I have no bloody idea!  Apparently covering up serial and institutionalized sexual abuse is perfectly understandable if you are Alyssa Bates Webster's father. 

This has happened time and time again with both Gil and Kelly. They do something awful and then posters want to find excuses for them. What is it about them that makes people  want to excuse wretched behavior and beliefs? I really, truly don't get it. 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, actuallyjessica said:

https://thebatesfamily.com/2014/01/love-in-the-air/

There's pics of them holding hands while courting and then there's a comment reply that says:

"Dear Kelly,

They give side hugs. We said they could also hug for photos when parents are there or for special occasions. They decided to hold hands at courtship. They’re praying about waiting to hold hands anymore until engagement or to continue. I’m not sure what they’ll decide. Erin waited until engagement and said it really gave her something to look forward to. We’ll be supportive either way. We do advise them to save their first kiss for marriage and to stay pure. Brandon is 24 and Michael will be 24 in 2 weeks. Love, Kelly"

I just rewatched the episode documenting their courtship and engagement - I officially hate myself for doing that by the way. I only got half through it before turning it off out of boredom.

I looked at Google and found this:

http://www.batesfamilyblog.com/2016/01/recap-headed-to-altar.html?m=1

I know it isn't the family's website, but it does state that they waited to hold hands until they were engaged.

Here we go! I knew they had mentioned it early on during the show - appears it was the episode where she went to surprise Brandon in Texas! Not sure if Kelly confused her kids or if the Keilens decided to stop holding hands at some point - but they did say on the show that they were saving have holding for the engagement.

Source: 

... And now I'm going to go hang my head in embarrassment for putting this much effort into such a stupid topic. 

[Palimpsest]

14 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

This has happened time and time again with both Gil and Kelly. They do something awful and then posters want to find excuses for them. What is it about them that makes people  want to excuse wretched behavior and beliefs? I really, truly don't get it. 

It is absolutely beyond me.

So a question for the defenders of the Bateses.  Are you the same people who went ballistic over the Duggars covering up Josh's molestation?  Or did you think that was perfectly OK and excusable too?

[RosyDaisy]

Bless their hearts, I think it will take a scandal bigger than the IBLP lawsuit for Bates defenders to come to their senses.

[tsukinokawa]

47 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

 

 

"saving her first kids" ? omg I just dropped on the floor while laughing hysterically at that 

(no wonder Michaella is not pregnant yet) 

[iweartanktops]

7 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

Bless their hearts, I think it will take a scandal bigger than the IBLP lawsuit for Bates defenders to come to their senses.

I'm not sure what kind of scandal that would be. I mean, it doesn't get much worse than this... 

[Palimpsest]

1 minute ago, iweartanktops said:

I'm not sure what kind of scandal that would be. I mean, it doesn't get much worse than this... 

I'd be willing to bet that none of them have bothered to read the lawsuit.

 

[Ungodly Grandma]

2 hours ago, actuallyjessica said:

https://thebatesfamily.com/2014/01/love-in-the-air/

There's pics of them holding hands while courting and then there's a comment reply that says:

"Dear Kelly,

They give side hugs. We said they could also hug for photos when parents are there or for special occasions. They decided to hold hands at courtship. They’re praying about waiting to hold hands anymore until engagement or to continue. I’m not sure what they’ll decide. Erin waited until engagement and said it really gave her something to look forward to. We’ll be supportive either way. We do advise them to save their first kiss for marriage and to stay pure. Brandon is 24 and Michael will be 24 in 2 weeks. Love, Kelly"

This just makes me feel like a middle schooler again, want to start asking how far they might go, should the lord lay it on their hearts to go to second or third base, or more! So silly.,, is nothing private with these folks?

19 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I'd be willing to bet that none of them have bothered to read the lawsuit.

 

Why would they? I don't believe they even read the Bible.

[formergothardite]

30 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I'd be willing to bet that none of them have bothered to read the lawsuit.

 

I am wondering how many people who make excuses for the Bates actually realize what that lawsuit is about and how deeply involved Gil is. 

[iweartanktops]

19 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I am wondering how many people who make excuses for the Bates actually realize what that lawsuit is about and how deeply involved Gil is. 

Yep. I can't imagine anyone reading through those documents and still defending Gil. But then didn't someone read it and say they would remain neutral until the suit is ruled on or whatever?