Bringing Up Bates & Other Bates Family Doings

[Kelsey]

John and Alyssa have an awfully nice little house for a new, young couple. I wonder if the TV show paid for it.

Probably not. John works for the family AC business. AC businesses make good $$$$ here in Florida. It is HOT practically year round (with a week or two break). And John apparently has a side business of cleaning offices on the side.

Considering the John is 25- he's likely been saving up 7 years worth of a decent wage to purchase the house or they could be just renting.

[church_of_dog]

So from now on I won't look left and right before crossing a street because otherwise I wouldn't trust god enough.

Isn't that what "Jesus Take The Wheel" is all about? :snooty: :auto-swerve:

[princessmahina]

Natural birth control is a sin because you aren't trusting God. It shows a lack of faith and turning away a possibility of a pregnancy is like turning away a blessing from God. At least that is what Gothard teaches. And also pretty much what Gil and Kelly teach. I always found it creepy that they had taught their children that Kelly not getting pregnant was so bad that the kids felt like they had to fast and pray that she get pregnant.

They had to fast and pray?? Seriously?? Did she say that on the blog?

[formergothardite]

They had to fast and pray?? Seriously?? Did she say that on the blog?

It is from an older article about the family. I imagine that by now she realizes people give you strange looks if you gush about how wonderful it is that your kids get worried when mom doesn't get pregnant right after giving birth and start fasting and praying.

With 20 people living under one roof, the Bates children have to share everything from their parents' attention to their bedrooms. But none of the kids mind -- in fact they like it.

Like they have any option but to be happy and like Gil and Kelly would actually admit it if any of their children were unhappy with it. :roll: Having read enough large ATI family survivor stories, there is a good chance that not all the kids are really enthusiastic about all the babies.

Between Ellie and Callie (kids number 16 and 17) there was a short stint when Kelly wasn't getting pregnant. Kelly said the kids were scared of the thought of not having any more siblings and turned to prayer.

"A couple of the children said, 'Mom, can we pray that God will give us more children?'

The children wanted to have more babies so badly, Gil said, that they even asked if they could fast.

"Some of them said, 'Can we fast if the Lord would give us more children?'" he said. "They fasted and prayed

I feel like this is actually a pile of bullshit and didn't really happen. I heard variations of this story being told by ATI families in the past. The families that were trotted out as good examples for the rest of the less perfect families were always all about how their kids just looooooooooooooooove large families and just looooooooooooooooove having more babies and get upset with the idea of not having another baby. They don't mind the extra work because babies are just such a blessing. :roll:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/bates-fami ... d=14359053

[nokidsmom]

I don't buy into the claim that all the kids are happy with having more babies either. In a family of 19, I would say odds are good that some of them won't like it between the work, the disruption, getting less of mom's attention and not to mention the likelihood of having to get a job later on to help support the family because dear old dad believes in grifting his way through life rather than getting a job.

The kids are stuck but once they are out the house and married, I bet a few of them will be really happy to be away from it. Not sure about Chad and Erin, they still seem steeped in the koolaid, but really I think Zach and Alyssa are lovin' it being out of the family zoo.

[church_of_dog]

I agree that the kids might not cheer for more babies if they were able to be honest with themselves, but I can understand their seeming to be excited about "more babies" given that the parents focus on that to such an extent, and it even becomes the main aspect of their family identity.

I guess what I'm saying is that I understand how kids can get swept up in the "family project" and fool even themselves into thinking they enjoy something -- it takes a fair bit of self-awareness and introspection to realize that one doesn't actually like something if it's been presented to you your whole life as something wonderful.

Case in point: It took until I was around age 30 for me to recognize consciously that I didn't enjoy Christmas as a kid. Nothing horrible happened during my family's Christmases, so it was a subtle thing; I just didn't feel comfortable with the whole "give and receive gifts just because the calendar says it's time". Not to mention the whole religious aspect and then the Santa story on top of that. I just didn't get it, and was uncomfortable focusing on gifts, both giving and receiving. However, if you had watched me at Christmas each year I was a kid, you probably would not have known that I wasn't enjoying it -- I certainly didn't and I don't think my parents did -- because it was presented as something to be excited and enthused about, and so I was obediently excited and enthused... As I said, it took several years of self-awareness and exploring the meaning underneath the feelings I was having, before I had any explanation that made sense. And I'm an overthinking person -- I can imagine it would be even less conscious for someone who isn't encouraged to think deeply about how they feel...

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Probably not. John works for the family AC business. AC businesses make good $$$$ here in Florida. It is HOT practically year round (with a week or two break). And John apparently has a side business of cleaning offices on the side.

Considering the John is 25- he's likely been saving up 7 years worth of a decent wage to purchase the house or they could be just renting.

He may have paid cash. Honestly, do the math. He earned money in the family business--a Congressman is going to do things properly--not cash payments. He will have had no expenses beyond spending money. If they also added in money from their wedding they could easily buy a foreclosure [even a very nice one] or even a decent home. Their house is nice, I don't know the area, but buying with cash does give you a lot of room to negotiate. HVAC companies do well just about anywhere and a well-run cleaning company makes real money.

[MissBitters]

I faintly remember Kelly commenting in one of her blog posts that John and Alyssa were renting, but I could be mixing it up with one of the other married kids.

[formergothardite]

I agree that the kids might not cheer for more babies if they were able to be honest with themselves, but I can understand their seeming to be excited about "more babies" given that the parents focus on that to such an extent, and it even becomes the main aspect of their family identity.

I guess what I'm saying is that I understand how kids can get swept up in the "family project" and fool even themselves into thinking they enjoy something -- it takes a fair bit of self-awareness and introspection to realize that one doesn't actually like something if it's been presented to you your whole life as something wonderful.

Case in point: It took until I was around age 30 for me to recognize consciously that I didn't enjoy Christmas as a kid. Nothing horrible happened during my family's Christmases, so it was a subtle thing; I just didn't feel comfortable with the whole "give and receive gifts just because the calendar says it's time". Not to mention the whole religious aspect and then the Santa story on top of that. I just didn't get it, and was uncomfortable focusing on gifts, both giving and receiving. However, if you had watched me at Christmas each year I was a kid, you probably would not have known that I wasn't enjoying it -- I certainly didn't and I don't think my parents did -- because it was presented as something to be excited and enthused about, and so I was obediently excited and enthused... As I said, it took several years of self-awareness and exploring the meaning underneath the feelings I was having, before I had any explanation that made sense. And I'm an overthinking person -- I can imagine it would be even less conscious for someone who isn't encouraged to think deeply about how they feel...

Also having it beaten into their heads from birth that it is a huge sin to be upset at the idea of more babies would also make it harder to admit, even to themselves, what they really think about the constant barrage of babies that they have to help raise.

[HereticHick]

I faintly remember Kelly commenting in one of her blog posts that John and Alyssa were renting, but I could be mixing it up with one of the other married kids.

I am pretty sure she said that they are renting as well. Chad and Erin may also be renting.

[Georgiana]

I faintly remember Kelly commenting in one of her blog posts that John and Alyssa were renting, but I could be mixing it up with one of the other married kids.

Honestly, in the beginning, renting makes a lot more sense for a lot of young families who intend to have large families.

It takes about 5-7 years to make a profit on buying/re-selling a house (unless you flip it or the market goes crazy). That's about the amount of time you need to recoup escrow, closing costs, fees, etc. from both sales. If you're going to outgrow the houses you can afford in 5-7 years, it may make sense to rent only the space you need (upgrading as necessary) until you can afford a house that is a longer-term option.

Otherwise, you can do what Zach/Whit did which is buy a large house that needs work and fix it up as you need the room.

My friends bought a house when they were married and bought only the house they needed. 3 years and 3 kids later, they need a larger house, but they are really trapped by what they can afford. Really, they'd love to live closer to family, but they are basically forced to live out in the middle of nowhere due to house prices. Would have made a lot more sense for them to wait and save up for a larger house in the beginning, but hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I don't think Zach owns his home either

[Mama Mia]

I would assume in real life it's a mix -- some of the kids are genuinely thrilled with each new baby, some are neutral, some are faking it because they have to and some just think they like it because it's expected. Like with anything in life, with that many people you'd get a range of opinions. That's what comes across as so strange with these fundamentalist families - they don't seem to realize that in the broader world it's a GOOD thing for kids to not all think the same thing. I get why they don't like it, and it clashes with their cookie cutter belief system -- but it is one thing that really stands out as extreme.

Church-of-dog -- Your statement about not liking Christmas as a child was interesting -- Im just curious as to how you came to that realization? If it was me, I think I would just assume I liked something as a kid, but my tastes changed and I didn't like it anymore. What felt different about this? Just wondering, don't answer if you don't feel like it :)

[Justme]

Kelly said Zack rents.

[calimojo]

Ok, So I just spent time looking at lots of pics and video clips on Lawson's IG, and in my opinion, it looks very much like Joe is happier, more relaxed, even to the point of silliness, when he is hanging with the Bates family, vs. his own.

He also seems to get more attention there because between Lawson and the BatesFam IG, there are more pics of Joe in just the past few months, than I think we have seen on the Duggars IG ever.

So yes, In a nod to Formergothardite, who I think has great insight, I agree, both sets of parents have deplorable values and a twisted sense of faith, religion, etc. I must say, that I still believe that the Bates as a whole are more personable and likeable, and even Joe seems to agree.

Perhaps he will court a Bates girl and be able to join that family and keep his at a more long distance reach.

[Georgiana]

I don't think Zach owns his home either

Really? I guess I just assumed because they let them put in carpet and paint...I've never heard of anyone doing work like that on a rented house.

[formergothardite]

I have never disagreed that the Bates come off as more personable and likable, I just disagree that they are better humans or parents than the Duggars. I think that when you factor in Gil's involvement with Gothard they are probably worse people and worse parents.

I think siding with a guy who grooms and molests teens and then sending your own daughters off with this guy just pretty much makes you a shitty parent. All the other good things they might do can't make up for that.

[JMO]

I'm pretty sure Zach rents. Some landlords are more than happy to let the tenant pay for an upgrade in decorations that will end up staying after the tenant moves on. Only helps to rental value.

[calimojo]

I have never disagreed that the Bates come off as more personable and likable, I just disagree that they are better humans or parents than the Duggars. I think that when you factor in Gil's involvement with Gothard they are probably worse people and worse parents.

I think siding with a guy who grooms and molests teens and then sending your own daughters off with this guy just pretty much makes you a shitty parent. All the other good things they might do can't make up for that.

I know, and I agree with you. I don't "side" with Gil, but I like the liveliness and more natural behavior of the kids better. I don't dislike the Duggar kids, either, but I think they are restricted in their personality because of how they were raised, OR because of how they are instructed to present themselves on the show.

And my point was, the second that Joe got out of that house, and was elsewhere, he seems to show more personality/spark and less awkwardness.

I think all of the Duggar kids, except for the littles, are more guarded. I think they are coached to be that way, either by TLC, their parents, etc. Living in the public eye for so many years, has turned this guardedness into a personality trait.

The Bates, have been less in the public eye, and hence they conversely seem more comfortable in it now, even though you would expect it to be the opposite. But they don't seem to be as coached or guarded in their interactions on screen. And In the short clips and pics of Joe with the Bates family, he also seems influenced by their more natural and spontaneous behavior and follows suit.

And my post was not meant to diminish you opinions on the Bates. I think you have brought out some really valuable points about them and the danger their "We are just one big happy family as long as you don't look under the surface" attitudes might have in making the cultish lifestyle normalized.

[happy atheist]

Moving on to Part 2: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25345