Bringing Up Bates & Other Bates Family Doings

[19 cats and counting]

well, I would assume he wouldn't have had to ask the congressman's son to be a lawn boy.

The whole lawnboy thing is one of the stranger things that JB has done. But I think it came down to filming. I think it was suggested as good story line and they went for it. Ben might have earned some money to put towards the marriage too, if he was being paid for his on screen time. I think the whole thing was orchestrated for the show.

Maybe you're right, JB wants spineless men that he can control. I just hope it blows up in his face and that Derick, Ben or one yet to be determined grows a really big set of cajones and tells JB that there is a new sheriff in town.

How likely is Chad to become distant from Gothardism? He seems like such a good guy. And his brother seems to be distancing himself from the cult. Do we think it is possible that he might as well?

Erin seems pretty entrenched, but perhaps Chad can quietly influence her away. I worry though because it seems as if Gil and Kelly are very willing to exploit Chad in anyway possible. He seems like the workhorse of the family, and I worry that this will really wear on him once he starts having his own children to look after.

I'd love nothing more than for Ben to grow a pair and get a job over by his family and take Jessa with him. I'm sure JB would put up a fight and perhaps cut them out of the show for it though (unless he runs for office).

As for Chad/Erin--- I don't see them having a mega family (like both came from) due to her fertility issues. Maybe that's what will break them.

[Snarkle]

One difference between TLC and UP and their respective portrayals of the Duggars and Bateseses is that UP has shown family members both in the core family and extended family expressing themselves about the family size in a non-positive way. Now I confess to giving up on watching 19 Kids a while ago and only keeping up with the Duggars on FJ or in the mainstream media so I may be mistaken, but it was pretty telling how in the Thanksgiving episode Gil's family chose their words carefully but also didn't mince words about their view of Gil's particular flavor of religion and his family size. I read Gil's brother Greg's wife Casey's blog all of the time, and their family is definitely Christian and are Christian homeschoolers, but their kids wear leggings and regular bathing suits and experience life, and Gil's sister's description of her struggles with infertility and her counseling of Erin was also something you wouldn't see on 19 Kids. UP has also shown Alyssa as happily living far, far away from her family and being overwhelmed when they visit - TLC portrays Anna & Josh as pining for the old homestead and their family quite often (which is interesting because other than the unmarried brothers, do any of the married Keller children still live near their parents?). You wouldn't see any of Michelle's family and very little of JB's family complaining about their family/grandkids on 19 Kids.

Gil's parents spend a LOT of time with Greg's kids per Casey's blog, but they must be so overwhelmed with the sheer number in Gil's family - when the Bates kids were talking about how exponentially bigger the family could be in just a few years with so many marriages, it was mindboggling. They will need to rent a hall soon for holiday gatherings - the tent was a good idea, though. Also, Gil's kids see their fundie lite Bates cousins quite a bit as well as Kelly's family, so they do have regular exposure to a much less stringent lifestyle, unlike the Duggars where Amy is the black sheep portrayed more as comic relief/the Cousin Oliver than as a contrast to their oppressive lifestyle (do we ever hear from Michelle's family at all)? I abhor the beliefs of both the Bateseses and the Duggars, but I also still give a slight edge to the Bateseses on the tolerability scale.

[Kelsey]

I think we can all pretty much agree, they are both creepy. Both families are a part of a disturbing cult, based on bigoted, hateful, misogynistic teachings. Both have are very misguided in their views of Christianity. Both have children who are severely disadvantaged by how they were raised. And because these families have money coming in from the TV shows, it incorrectly gives the impression that it really is possible to raise 19 children and everything will be rosy.

They completely leave out the realities of this lifestyle, for example:

No one talks about going to bed hungry (except for Jill eating in the bathroom), no one talks about being blanket trained, or watching their parent blanket train their siblings, or Worse, being forced to blanket train their own siblings at the behest of their parents.

I don't recall the girls ever talking about having to get up through the night to attend to their baby siblings that they have been given the responsibility for at about 6 mos of age. And I don't recall hearing any of the kids ever say, I never get one on one time with my mom or dad, because they always have 5 or 6 other ones around all the time.

Personally, I would like to see some of those realities in the show. I would like to hear the parents talk about their struggles, did they ever doubt or have fears that they weren't going to be able to stay afloat, feed or house their children?

We definitely just get the window dressing. And sadly, with children, they themselves are probably being sold on this as well because they are probably discouraged from having or sharing memories of when life was harder.

I mean it wasn't all that long ago, that the Bates Family was in that little shack that had like 1 bathroom a tiny laundry area and very small kitchen. Even the younger kids likely remember that.

That had to have been a really difficult way to live with all those kids, but I am sure they have all been brainwashed into thinking that it was just a fun adventure.

As far as Education, I do think that the Bates have had a better homeschool education. First off, they are being taught by Kelly, who at least had a decent education of her own. Compared to Michelle who just had a HS diploma. They have a more fluid vocabulary and are more quick witted. And so far we know that Michaela, Erin, Nathan and Tori are going or have gone to college. True, it has mostly been Crown College, but still it is hopefully better than nothing. I am not sure if Zach went, but I think his wife did. Their younger kids all seem to be more on target developmentally that the youngest Duggars. Their speech is more clear. Poor Jordan and Josie, seem so much younger than their true ages, even accounting for Josie's rough start in life.

Kelly has said in a TH that she wants her kids to go to college. They at least seem to value education more than JB does. As far as the quality of the home school education materials, I am sure they are pretty much the same.

Whitney did go to (and finish) a degree. I believe Zach attended Crown and studied PolSci. I don't think he finished though.

[Mama Mia]

That's interesting seeing the number of Bates kids who have attended college laid out that way. That puts them much higher than would be expected for a non- Fundie family. How on earth do they afford that? I think Michael went to a regular community college . But the rest went to Crown? They must have some amazing financial aid packages. Or they attend for free as a promotional lure for the school? How the heck do they afford to send that many kids to University? Just books and gas would add up!

[feministxtian]

IIRC, I read on the Bates' blog that Kelly used Abeka curriculum for the kids. Given that it's from PCC and fundy, it's actually not that bad as far as academics go. I know of a few schools that use it and the kids come out of those schools ready for college level work. I think Kelly and Gil actually set more stock in giving their kids a better education (fundie-wise) than the Duggars...it doesn't hurt that they're both college grads.

[Snarkle]

IIRC, I read on the Bates' blog that Kelly used Abeka curriculum for the kids. Given that it's from PCC and fundy, it's actually not that bad as far as academics go. I know of a few schools that use it and the kids come out of those schools ready for college level work. I think Kelly and Gil actually set more stock in giving their kids a better education (fundie-wise) than the Duggars...it doesn't hurt that they're both college grads.

Kelly has also asked her sister-in-law Casey for advice about higher level programs - from what Casey has outlined on her homeschooling blog, her kids do a lot of science curricula (mostly Christian-based) and use a variety of programs, so she has probably helped Kelly choose some curricula for the older kids. I can't see Michelle ever asking another family member for assistance with choosing what their kids are taught. I would imagine that the Bates kids are better off academically (and this is a very low bar to clear) than the Duggars are.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

I think Erin and Chad attend a regular Baptist church connected to Crown College and not Gil's church. It's still not my cup of tea but it's a start.

That's good. It's a little better than home church. There are bound to be a few "normal" Southern Baptists--by that I mean women who work, wear pants, go swimming in normal suits, and limit their family size. They may or may not homeschool, though the SBC is FOR homeschooling all the way. Maybe they are in a Sunday School class for newly married couples? That would be nice--not always having to listen to the "wisdom" of their elders.

[jerkit]

That's good. It's a little better than home church. There are bound to be a few "normal" Southern Baptists--by that I mean women who work, wear pants, go swimming in normal suits, and limit their family size. They may or may not homeschool, though the SBC is FOR homeschooling all the way. Maybe they are in a Sunday School class for newly married couples? That would be nice--not always having to listen to the "wisdom" of their elders.

The church associated with Clowne College is not SBC, it's still IFB.

[formergothardite]

It is good for the Bates kids that their parents can afford to buy or can grift a better curriculum than ATI, but it just makes Gil and Kelly suck even more that they help scam people into joining ATI, which is presented as a homeschooling curriculum. Many of the parents who get sucked in can't afford to buy an additional curriculum after paying the hundreds of dollars a year to be a member of ATI or they don't realize that it is a shitty curriculum because they have been told by the top ATI families that ATI provides a quality curriculum. It is one thing if the top families like Gil and Kelly actually believed and used this curriculum like it is claimed it can be used, but it is pretty awful that they seem to realize that it is worthless and give their own kids a better education. People who hear Kelly calling ATI the backbone and foundation of their homeschool curriculum might not realize what she actually means is that she buys an entirely different curriculum to really teach her kids. Most quiverful families aren't going to be able to afford the cost of the ATI curriculum and then the cost of a curriculum that is worthwhile.

[Kelsey]

I think Erin and Chad have actually taken several steps away from the koolaid,

First they attend a church of their choosing. They have posted about Chad cooking and cleaning after work- can you see JB doing this? We've seen Michelle cooking breakfast for him, while in labor! We've seen that Chad paints Erin's nails. He spends time on her hobbies- recording and editing the hair/make-up tutorials. Chad was willing to move to TN for Erin to finish school. They have made statements about seeking dr advice about future pregnancy. Erin works and Chad does not seem to dismiss it. Also, Erin is the only one that we've seen actually giving back to the community without having to do it for filming or whatever (nursing home recitals).

[nelliebelle1197]

That's good. It's a little better than home church. There are bound to be a few "normal" Southern Baptists--by that I mean women who work, wear pants, go swimming in normal suits, and limit their family size. They may or may not homeschool, though the SBC is FOR homeschooling all the way. Maybe they are in a Sunday School class for newly married couples? That would be nice--not always having to listen to the "wisdom" of their elders.

Crown College is not SBC; it is IFB.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_In ... stitutions

ETA: JINX JERKIT!

[nelliebelle1197]

I think Erin and Chad have actually taken several steps away from the koolaid,

First they attend a church of their choosing. They have posted about Chad cooking and cleaning after work- can you see JB doing this? We've seen Michelle cooking breakfast for him, while in labor! We've seen that Chad paints Erin's nails. He spends time on her hobbies- recording and editing the hair/make-up tutorials. Chad was willing to move to TN for Erin to finish school. They have made statements about seeking dr advice about future pregnancy. Erin works and Chad does not seem to dismiss it. Also, Erin is the only one that we've seen actually giving back to the community without having to do it for filming or whatever (nursing home recitals).

I actually recall reading Clown College students attend the Clown IFB (NOT SBC) church because they are supposed to. Also, doesn't Erin play the piano there? templebaptistchurch.com/

Why would seeking medical advice about pregnancy mean they are moving away? The Bates are not the Andersons with their crazy medical profession conspiracies.

Also, comparing Jim Bob Duggar as a husband to Chad Paine then using it as evidence that Chad is moving away from ATI is just bad logic. Sorry.

[Kelsey]

I actually recall reading Clown College students attend the Clown IFB (NOT SBC) church because they are supposed to. Also, doesn't Erin play the piano there? templebaptistchurch.com/

Why would seeking medical advice about pregnancy mean they are moving away? The Bates are not the Andersons with their crazy medical profession conspiracies.

Also, comparing Jim Bob Duggar as a husband to Chad Paine then using it as evidence that Chad is moving away from ATI is just bad logic. Sorry.

I meant they had spoken about receiving medical advice regarding the timing/number of future pregnancies given Erin's medical condition. It shows that they are, at least considering, limiting the number of babies due to Erin's health. This is a large step away from have more babies at all costs that both the Bates and Duggar families have shown before. I'm not that up-to-date on ATI rules but even giving the indication that one is considering limiting babies (for any reason) is not something we have seen any Bates (or Duggar) family member do (other than C&E). Even Alyssa said something like she hopes to only have ten kids (or whatever the number was) but didn't indicate that she'd be making sure she only had ten.

I'm not sure why proof of C & E clearly side-stepping ATI gender roles is bad logic. The norm is woman cooks and cleans, husband earns the money. In this case, Chad is doing both (at times). A clear departure from ATI standards. I mentioned JB because it's an example that most viewers are going to remember.

Also, notice Jill Duggar stated that she had not been cooking much food (during her first trimester) and implying that they had been eating cold or bland foods since cooking made her sick. Notice Jill did not say that Derick came home and cooked when she couldn't.

Do I think we will see a radical departure from ATI type beliefs from C&E? I'm not sure but they have shown several small departures from the normal standards of their belief system. I think they have the capacity to grow and learn and possibly change their beliefs.

Also, wow my thinking is really jumbled. Must go take my meds.

[nelliebelle1197]

I meant they had spoken about receiving medical advice regarding the timing/number of future pregnancies given Erin's medical condition. It shows that they are, at least considering, limiting the number of babies due to Erin's health. This is a large step away from have more babies at all costs that both the Bates and Duggar families have shown before. I'm not that up-to-date on ATI rules but even giving the indication that one is considering limiting babies (for any reason) is not something we have seen any Bates (or Duggar) family member do (other than C&E). Even Alyssa said something like she hopes to only have ten kids (or whatever the number was) but didn't indicate that she'd be making sure she only had ten.

I'm not sure why proof of C & E clearly side-stepping ATI gender roles is bad logic. The norm is woman cooks and cleans, husband earns the money. In this case, Chad is doing both (at times). A clear departure from ATI standards. I mentioned JB because it's an example that most viewers are going to remember.

Also, notice Jill Duggar stated that she had not been cooking much food (during her first trimester) and implying that they had been eating cold or bland foods since cooking made her sick. Notice Jill did not say that Derick came home and cooked when she couldn't.

Do I think we will see a radical departure from ATI type beliefs from C&E? I'm not sure but they have shown several small departures from the normal standards of their belief system. I think they have the capacity to grow and learn and possibly change their beliefs.

Also, wow my thinking is really jumbled. Must go take my meds.

You cannot go take meds without sharing. :naughty:

[Kelsey]

Really JB has favorite recipes? I've only ever seen him make BBQ tuna sandwiches :lol: <----this was in response to a post that used to be here but must have been deleted

My meds aren't really anything good- unless you're dieting :lol:

[VelociRapture]

Just want to point this out for anyone talking about how great it is that the Bates kids have jobs:

Kelly and Gil had no other option than to allow them to work outside the home because they didn't have the money to provide for all the kids. I mean, they had to "borrow" money from one of their elder sons in order to feed their kids at one point!

It's great that the older kids were able to work outside the home - especially the girls. I think its awesome that Alyssa worked at the flower shop, that Michael was a nanny, and that Erin teaches music. . . but to think that Kelly and Gil are awesome parents because of that is laughable. They have the same shitty morals and beliefs as Boob and Michelle. The only difference is the Duggars landed a TV show long before the Bates did, which means they had more financial security and didn't need their children to work outside the home.

[formergothardite]

Just want to point this out for anyone talking about how great it is that the Bates kids have jobs:

Kelly and Gil had no other option than to allow them to work outside the home because they didn't have the money to provide for all the kids. I mean, they had to "borrow" money from one of their elder sons in order to feed their kids at one point!

It's great that the older kids were able to work outside the home - especially the girls. I think its awesome that Alyssa worked at the flower shop, that Michael was a nanny, and that Erin teaches music. . . but to think that Kelly and Gil are awesome parents because of that is laughable. They have the same shitty morals and beliefs as Boob and Michelle. The only difference is the Duggars landed a TV show long before the Bates did, which means they had more financial security and didn't need their children to work outside the home.

Exactly. It is less "Gil and Kelly are better parents who encourage individuality and education" and more "Gil and Kelly are equally bad parents who had more kids than they could care for, didn't have the reality TV money, and were forced to allow their kids to get jobs".

[nokidsmom]

Exactly. It is less "Gil and Kelly are better parents who encourage individuality and education" and more "Gil and Kelly are equally bad parents who had more kids than they could care for, didn't have the reality TV money, and were forced to allow their kids to get jobs".

To the bolded: this. Yeah, it's good the girls had jobs but I never thought it was because Gil and Kelly thought it would be good for them to have job skills and experience. They needed the damn money.

[Justme]

I think after this baby comes, Chad & Erin are going to have to do some serious thinking of how far down the rabbit hole they want to stay. Erin doesn't have any problem getting pregnant, she has a problem staying pregnant. Now they know what needs to be done to maintain the pregnancies (shots). If they stay true to the party line, then they should not prevent pregnancy and take the shots as soon as she knows she is pregnant. Erin is considered high risk and has not been having an easy pregnancy. The shots are painful and she hasn't been feeling well. Imagine going through this every year or 18 months (if her body blesses her with natural birth control while nursing.) I just do not see a happy outcome. Thankfully, Chad seems very intune to Erin's body and needs. I just can't seem him putting her though this year after year. (I hope.)

[sadiZ]

It's true Jill and Jessa married outside the ATI/IBLP cult, HOWEVER, JB has done everything he can to indoctrinate those fellas and mold them into his ideal suitors. I really liked Derick when he was first introduced, but now he just walks around sputtering things about the "season of life". It was especially evident when JB and M were giving Jill and Derick pre-martial classes! That really pissed me off. D seemed so uncomfortable and scared to give an incorrect answer, lest JB break off the engagement.

And Baby Ben, JB went so far as to move him onto the compound and employ him. Talk about a controlling FIL!

While it's true that the Duggars only have one married within ATI, the men that JB selected for his daughters are not outsiders that will come and rescue them. I highly doubt that JB wants ATI royalty for his daughters, and that he would prefer Kool Aid drinkers who are easily influenced by JB and JB alone. (Despite his 'normal' upbringing, it seems that Derick is quickly guzzling the Kool Aid and Baby Dilly will likely be raised ATI). The jury's still out on Ben, but he did relocate to be JB's yard boy/bitch.

But looking at the Bates girl suitors, I don't think JB would have approved of them. (Rumor has it Jana and/or JB said no to a Zach Bates courtship). Chad is the only one I can remotely see (because he was willing to relocate). John and Brandon, I don't see because they did/most likely will relocate their brides upon marriage. JB wants his kids' spouses to relocate to their area, not the other way around (Anna and Ben did, Derick was already fairly local with a job in the area). Honestly I don't even know if JB would approve of Gothard's successor, David Waller, if he proposed courting one of his daughters because he's too much influence.

And besides, can you picture JB asking a congressman's son to be his lawn boy?

I get the feeling that JB specifically wants suitors for his daughters that are a bit outside of the ATI/IBLP cult, but still have the same leanings and beliefs. Some one raised in it might be more likely to want to escape, where these malleable yes-men he can have drink the koolaid and start their own branch of the cult. That way it is like another 1st generation member. Isn't it the further removed from the start, the more likely they are to leave? But he is cutting off that trend by pulling in new blood to marry off his girls.

[nokidsmom]

I think after this baby comes, Chad & Erin are going to have to do some serious thinking of how far down the rabbit hole they want to stay. Erin doesn't have any problem getting pregnant, she has a problem staying pregnant. Now they know what needs to be done to maintain the pregnancies (shots). If they stay true to the party line, then they should not prevent pregnancy and take the shots as soon as she knows she is pregnant. Erin is considered high risk and has not been having an easy pregnancy. The shots are painful and she hasn't been feeling well. Imagine going through this every year or 18 months (if her body blesses her with natural birth control while nursing.) I just do not see a happy outcome. Thankfully, Chad seems very intune to Erin's body and needs. I just can't seem him putting her though this year after year. (I hope.)

Agreed. Hopefully Erin will get through this OK but it's not over yet. Even if she has a good outcome she's going through a lot to maintain the pregnancy. And there's no guarantees that future pregnancies will succeed either. Plus she will have kids to take care of during those future pregnancies. It will be harder. I can't see Chad wanting Erin to go through this year after year.

[nataraja]

I think after this baby comes, Chad & Erin are going to have to do some serious thinking of how far down the rabbit hole they want to stay. Erin doesn't have any problem getting pregnant, she has a problem staying pregnant. Now they know what needs to be done to maintain the pregnancies (shots). If they stay true to the party line, then they should not prevent pregnancy and take the shots as soon as she knows she is pregnant. Erin is considered high risk and has not been having an easy pregnancy. The shots are painful and she hasn't been feeling well. Imagine going through this every year or 18 months (if her body blesses her with natural birth control while nursing.) I just do not see a happy outcome. Thankfully, Chad seems very intune to Erin's body and needs. I just can't seem him putting her though this year after year. (I hope.)

I hope they will try natural birth control.

We know from the Duggars that some fundies believe the pill could cause miscarriages so I can see why harmonal birth control would be a complete No Go for fundie spouses but I hope that some among the quiverful offspring will in their own marriages come to the the oppinion that cancelling sexual intercourse during the fertility days of the wife can't be a sin.

I for my part can't undertand how anybody can come to the conclusion that natural birth control were a sin.

[formergothardite]

I hope they will try natural birth control.

We know from the Duggars that some fundies believe the pill could cause miscarriages so I can see why harmonal birth control would be a complete No Go for fundie spouses but I hope that some among the quiverful offspring will in their own marriages come to the the oppinion that cancelling sexual intercourse during the fertility days of the wife can't be a sin.

I for my part can't undertand how anybody can come to the conclusion that natural birth control were a sin.

Natural birth control is a sin because you aren't trusting God. It shows a lack of faith and turning away a possibility of a pregnancy is like turning away a blessing from God. At least that is what Gothard teaches. And also pretty much what Gil and Kelly teach. I always found it creepy that they had taught their children that Kelly not getting pregnant was so bad that the kids felt like they had to fast and pray that she get pregnant.

[nataraja]

Natural birth control is a sin because you aren't trusting God. It shows a lack of faith. At least that is what Gothard teaches.

So from now on I won't look left and right before crossing a street because otherwise I wouldn't trust god enough.

[Mela99]

John and Alyssa have an awfully nice little house for a new, young couple. I wonder if the TV show paid for it.