Caleb Williams

[Rachel333]

9 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

It's disgusting and so disappointing.  Grown women should be able to understand the girls plight in this situation. 

They really should, but I honestly think that a lot of women defend the idea of grown men with young girls because to do otherwise would mean confronting uncomfortable truths about their own experiences.

[BackseatMom]

Whew. I'll just add this - as angered as I was by they few early rape apologists, I am quite heartened by the immediate and thorough defense of all victims. FJ is primarily made up of good people.

[Lisafer]

19 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

Blame? No. We (my ex husband, myself, his parents, our mutual friends) all tried keeping them apart. We told her 100x he was too old. She didn't care. Her parents didn't care. We told him 100x she was too young, he'd go to jail. Neither cared.  Yes, there was some discussion *at the time 18 years ago* of her trying to trap him to get out of her shitty home life. And yes, they're still happily married, with 3 kids total. He spent the first 8 years of their marriage in the Navy. Then he went Army and they made it through 4 Iraq/Afghanistan deployments before he got out with severe PTSD. 

I NEVER SAID IT WASN'T WRONG. IT WAS!!! But nothing anyone said or did made a difference. To EITHER of them. Believe me, we tried!!!

You said "she knew EXACTLY what she was doing." That's victim blaming right there.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

17 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

I think maybe because that was one of the counts against the Duggars's Friend Caleb.

Horrifying.

Yeah, I got that. I meant, how did @SapphireSlytherin find that out about people she knows? 

[Beermeet]

7 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

They really should, but I honestly think that a lot of women defend the idea of grown men with young girls because to do otherwise would mean confronting uncomfortable truths about their own experiences.

Bingo. Or, of men in their lives that they love that did *things* with underage kids but not them. " oh, but he'sso nice!"  No, he isn't.  Abuse is horrible in that way.  Total mind fuck.  

@singsingsing  kicked some serious ass in this thread. Full on truth. Glad she said all of what she said. It's beyond time to stop this nonsense,  break the cycle of protecting predators.  Hope you're feeling better and realize how awesome you are at advocating for young girls who are victims of sexual abuse and we have your back and we agree. The majority agrees and I love you women for it. We're going to keep pushing, keep talking, keep calling it out. No stopping now. 

Jesus be a strong drink, I need one. 

[Caskett4ever]

Age gaps of five years or more are reasonable when the younger person is in their twenties or older. But when they are a minor? Especially when they are barely a teenager? That's gross. Someone in their twenties having sex with a fourteen year old is grooming them. The fourteen year old is not old enough to be fully knowledgeable of the acts they are partaking in and unable to consent. The person in their twenties is knowledgeable and  also know that having sex with a fourteen year old is illegal. Any adult who pursues someone that young should have charges brought against them. 

[Carm_88]

My body was mature at 14, I developed young, and if you didn't see my face; I looked older. So that meant that I was catcalled and shouted at "If only you were a little bit older..." By grown fucking men. I cried and wondered what I did to make them think that I was some sort of slut. The thing is that the issue was never with me, I was not the one who was wrong. I was a child and I continued to be a child for many years after that.

No one deserves to be sexually assaulted or groomed or forced into a situation that they are uncomfortable with. Whether it be an older woman grooming a young boy or an older man grooming a young girl; the child in the situation is not and will never be to blame. The older person has all the power and the younger is flattered. "You're so much different then girls your age..." (Or boys), it's the age old cry of those making a younger person believe that they are different, special. Isn't that what everyone wants to believe? Considering that so many who are groomed often have low self esteem. They prey on that.

Stop defending that shit. Stop making the slut comments, stop saying about a walk of shame, stop putting down other's experiences, stop commenting on other people's clothes and using that as an excuse. Stop giving predators/sexual abusers excuses. They don't need them. Be supportive of those who have been wronged be they male or female.

Age of consent is important because if the person has not met that age line, they cannot tell you yes. It is not legal, you will go to jail and I will not feel bad for you, not for one minute.

[Rachel333]

Everyone is talking about men having sex with young girls and I agree that makes it a lot worse, but I still think those relationships are wrong when they're not having sex. I say that because I've seen people here excuse fundie men pursuing girls much younger than them with, among other excuses, "they're not having sex," but those relationships can still be harmful for the girls without sex, and no matter what I think it's creepy when men go after girls rather than women closer to their own age.

[Rachel333]

3 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Age of consent is important because if the person has not met that age line, they cannot tell you yes. It is not legal, you will go to jail and I will not feel bad for you, not for one minute.

I agree, and I care about the age of consent if the person is under that age. I don't , however, think that just because a teenager has reached the age of consent means a relationship with an adult is fine. A relationship being legal is just the bare minimum, not the only factor that matters as some people seem to think.

Again, I'm saying this because I've seen previous discussions on FJ where commenters said that because a girl was over the age of consent in some places there's nothing wrong with a young teen girl dating an adult man. Some countries have a very low age of consent. Spain's, for example, is now 16, but until 1999 it was just 12 and until 2015 it was 13. (If you go back further in history it gets worse; in a lot of places in the US the age of consent was as low as 10 in the 1800s)  I don't really care that a 12-year-old girl could legally have sex with an adult in Spain in the 1990s; I still think it was wrong for adults to take advantage of children like that.

[Shadoewolf]

My ex and I tried to intervene. We gave his parents the phone number for her parents. They spoke numerous times. The girl's older sister had a baby at 16 too, **her parents didn't care so long as they weren't supporting her**.   And yes, she did know what she was doing. She wasn't a virgin when they met. In their wedding photo that still hangs in his parents living room, she is absolutely BEAMING, while he really does look like there's a gun to his head. 

I CURRENTLY know 2 girls who are cunning and sneaky and use sex to manipulate and as blackmail with boys who are the same age (16-17) I intervened in one instance and called the boy's mom because he's a good kid who was getting twisted up with someone who knows exactly how to play him. These girls have been doing so since they were sophomores (now seniors). Do you have any idea how many girls at the high school have fake ID's? Watch Unexpected on TLC and tell me MaKayla doesn't know any better?  I hate the patriarchal nature of society as much as anyone here but not all girls are sweet, innocent victims.  There are ones with predatory/sociopath tendencies out there. I'm lucky my oldest daughter is a good kid with a solid foundation because with the right clothes and makeup she could easily pass for 21, and she's just barely 18. 

 

[SilverBeach]

1 minute ago, Shadoewolf said:

he really does look like there's a gun to his head

If he didn't want to impregnate anyone, why didn't he use a condom and spermicide? He was the adult in the situation. He's not a victim.

 

3 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

I CURRENTLY know 2 girls who are cunning and sneaky and use sex to manipulate and as blackmail

I bet these girls were sexually abused.

[Rachel333]

3 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

She wasn't a virgin when they met.

Why does that matter?

[SilverBeach]

6 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

She wasn't a virgin when they met.

And you know that how?

[Rachel333]

1 minute ago, SilverBeach said:

 

5 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

I CURRENTLY know 2 girls who are cunning and sneaky and use sex to manipulate and as blackmail

I bet these girls were sexually abused.

Yep, that was my thought too about the ex-SIL. If she wasn't a virgin when she met her husband at 15 that doesn't make me think she did anything wrong, that makes me think she was being taken advantage of from an even younger age than the story initially portrayed.

[Lisafer]

15 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

My ex and I tried to intervene. We gave his parents the phone number for her parents. They spoke numerous times. The girl's older sister had a baby at 16 too, **her parents didn't care so long as they weren't supporting her**.   And yes, she did know what she was doing. She wasn't a virgin when they met. In their wedding photo that still hangs in his parents living room, she is absolutely BEAMING, while he really does look like there's a gun to his head. 

I CURRENTLY know 2 girls who are cunning and sneaky and use sex to manipulate and as blackmail with boys who are the same age (16-17) I intervened in one instance and called the boy's mom because he's a good kid who was getting twisted up with someone who knows exactly how to play him. These girls have been doing so since they were sophomores (now seniors). Do you have any idea how many girls at the high school have fake ID's? Watch Unexpected on TLC and tell me MaKayla doesn't know any better?  I hate the patriarchal nature of society as much as anyone here but not all girls are sweet, innocent victims.  There are ones with predatory/sociopath tendencies out there. I'm lucky my oldest daughter is a good kid with a solid foundation because with the right clothes and makeup she could easily pass for 21, and she's just barely 18. 

 

So you're going to double down on the victim blaming. Gross. 

[singsingsing]

If nothing else, this thread is a glaring example of the continued reality, prevalence, and insidious nature of rape culture. If it's this bad here, imagine how bad it is in more misogynistic/"traditional" environments. No wonder so many girls and women are victimized. No wonder so few report the assaults and abuse they suffer, and no wonder so many rapists and abusers go free. If you are in this thread blaming victims and making excuses for men who have sex with minors, you are part of the problem.

I want to remind everyone again that this did not begin with someone suggesting that we shouldn't jump to conclusions because Caleb might actually be innocent of the crime for which he was charged. It began with people suggesting we shouldn't jump to conclusions because the crime for which he was charged might not have actually been all that bad. That the child he abused might have been into it. That she might be selling him out now to get back at him. That she might have entrapped him. And that's how it has continued.

All day, this particular sexual assault report I had to read a few years back has been running through my head. I'm not sure why that one in particular, since I read so many. But I'm putting it under a spoiler because it could be triggering.

Spoiler

She was 13 or 14. He was in his late teens, maybe 18 or 19. They were each with groups of friends and met at the beach. They flirted and made out a bit. Then they went back to his place. His bedroom was in the basement. He tried to put the moves on her but she was feeling uncomfortable. She felt trapped. He took her into his bedroom. She tried to tell him to stop but he didn't listen. She never said no. She just sort of froze up.

I'm not sure what happened to either of them. But I wonder how many of his female family members or friends blamed this girl, called her a whore, suggested she had entrapped him, enticed him, that she "knew exactly what she was doing", that she had ruined his life by going to the police, that she should have said no and that she must have really wanted it.

Do you know how many cases of child sex abuse I read where the child did not say no, fight back, or even understand that what was happening to them was wrong? 

Do you know the number of girls/women who accuse men of sexual assault and turn out to be lying? It's not zero. But it's close.

 

[Rachel333]

Another thing is that when people do lie about sexual assault they usually tell really outrageous stories that are unambiguously criminal. They don't make up a lie about something that people will argue isn't really rape, which happens all the time to real victims. False reports of rape also aren't any more common than false reports of other crimes, but you wouldn't know that from the way some people obsess about them.

These two articles give a great overview of what false rape accusations really look like:

https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations/

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/9/18/17874504/kavanaugh-assault-allegation-christine-blasey-ford

[Beermeet]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

Everyone is talking about men having sex with young girls and I agree that makes it a lot worse, but I still think those relationships are wrong when they're not having sex. I say that because I've seen people here excuse fundie men pursuing girls much younger than them with, among other excuses, "they're not having sex," but those relationships can still be harmful for the girls without sex, and no matter what I think it's creepy when men go after girls rather than closer to their own age.

Thank you. That is what happened to me.  I don't talk about it because I was not raped. I don't know how to express the impact sexism and grooming comments and yes, being taken advantage of by boys older than me. Because it wasn't rape or violent in anyway. It wasn't even actual sex. It just was. It's painful.  It's confusing.  I am realizing now that we need to talk about this.  That is the "culture " that needs to change.  I can see now ( meaning over the last 5-10 years; it takes some working out) that those experiences hindered me greatly.  I look back and feel trapped by it. I had no role model or mentor.  My daughter has it different, at 12 she has me. To tell my stories and thoughts as is age appropriate. To keep an eye on her and her friends.  To teach her, support her, be her guide who will speak about all of it, who will listen to all of it kindly with nothing but advice and understanding.  I didn't have that. My mother just didn't care to be in my life like that. It was hard out on my own with no guidance like that. Not my girl. Or, my boy,  who gets to listen and discuss with us. He's not on his own either.  My husband is an awesome father in regards to such matters. 

[AliceInFundyland]

@Shadoewolf Ok, well, teenagers do dumb shit. No teenager (even a bratty awful mean one with a fake ID who connives and cheats and steals) has the same level of brain awareness as someone even three-four years older. Consider what happened to get those kids to that point in life.

You have some seriously fucked assumptions going on here. And you are still victim blaming. It doesn’t matter if a girl is sweet and innocent or what. That’s a HUGE part of the problem. These girls get blamed because they are accused of knowing what they were doing. They don’t know. They are repeating behaviors they learned from external sources. Media, family, other dumb kids. They don’t know!

[RosyDaisy]

What kind of parents let these known predators anywhere near their children? WTAF?  It's a creepy sex cult. 

My parents wouldn't let my sister and I date until we were 16 and only guys in our age group. No exceptions.

[Shadoewolf]

Whoa whoa. I'm not doubling down. I've said numerous times and will again, IT WAS WRONG on my ex BIL's part.  I'm also not making fucked up assumptions when I was there as a lot of it went down. I know the things she said, her demeanor, etc. This girl was not a victim in the traditional rape sense. With a freshman psych class I could say I imagine the choice to have sex early came from parents who weren't involved and didn't care and emulating the older sister who had her first baby at 16. A kid who was exposed to shitty choices and bad parents? Yup. But she pursued him just as much which is sad as hell.  

The situation I recently intervened in? Good kid, good grades, lots of friends. 16 at the time. Supportive, involved but not helicopter parents. The crazy chick he's gotten involved with? The girl plays the Niagra Falls crying, pity me, everyone hates me routine whenever the attention isn't on her. When he had a family event and couldn't hang out with her after school one day, she sat on the sidewalk in front of his house bawling for an hour saying he didn't love her. The 3 times he's tried to break up with her she's threatened suicide. She's got him convinced his parents are just out to break them up, they don't care about him or his happiness because they don't support the relationship, and he should drop out of school right now in the middle of his senior year and move in with her and her mom. And this boy is considering it!! He's dumped 90% of the friends he's had since fucking first grade because they don't like her and she doesn't want him associating with them. So don't give me that shit about perpetuating rape culture. There ARE girls who are players. And how/where they learned it is heartbreakingly sad, no doubt. But that doesn't excuse the fact that she is fully aware of what she is doing. 

[DundeeUnFundie]

4 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Another thing is that when people do lie about sexual assault they usually tell really outrageous stories that are unambiguously criminal. *snip to keep this from being so huge, sorry!*

Going to post a story I know of a false-rape accusation, because I think it is important to note (please read the whole thing, don't make assumptions). This girl went out and a few hours later her foster parents (some family members of mine) got a call from the police. She had turned herself in crying about the brutal rape that occurred to her. Except she had no evidence on her body about this. She embellished the story greatly but it didn't add up, and she finally gave them the number to her primary caregivers...
She wasn't raped at that point. But the circumstances leading to her being placed in care had been horrific and drawn-out, causing psychological trauma. She couldn't explain why she decided to tell the police she had been raped.

False-rape accusations do occur occasionally. But it's something that people automatically jump to when rape accusations get thrown around, and the idea that false rape is done by a woman trying to get revenge is incredibly damaging. I don't know facts on this, I don't know if they exist. But I'm convinced that a lot of those fake accusations come from people who need our help.

2 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

*snip to keep this from getting huge, sorry!* So don't give me that shit about perpetuating rape culture. There ARE girls who are players. And how/where they learned it is heartbreakingly sad, no doubt. But that doesn't excuse the fact that she is fully aware of what she is doing. 

There are girls who are players. And there are girls who 'know exactly what they are doing'. I'm not going to disagree that he has a very hard decision to make.
But I disagree that she is fully aware of what she's doing. Think of '13 reasons why', think of 'the fault in our stars', think of sitcoms like friends and how I met your mother that do not promote healthy relationships (Ross and Ted's obsessions, for example). 

Rape culture needs to be addressed is because it's being modeled to our children through everyday social interactions. They see whats happening on tv, they see how it gets glorified in a lot of books that are popular for that age group. They are acting on what they think is expected, they think that drama is synonymous with love.

There are laws in place to protect children for things they aren't ready for (ratings on movies, age of consent etc). For a situation like you've said, that girl needs help. It would be hard but if he wants to call it off, there are adults and services around such as calling in a suicide watch and getting her parents to take her to therapy.

Adults are supposed to protect children from abuse. And I believe that whether it is a sixteen year old being hit by their sixteen year old partner, or in cases of emotional abuse like you mentioned. I also believe that in the case of an adult/minor relationship. To me, an adult is responsible in a minor/adult relationship, regardless of how much the younger person tried to get them involved. It is the adult's responsibility to walk away, because by law getting involved is taking advantage.

[bal maiden]

3 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

 

The situation I recently intervened in? Good kid, good grades, lots of friends. 16 at the time. Supportive, involved but not helicopter parents. The crazy chick he's gotten involved with? The girl plays the Niagra Falls crying, pity me, everyone hates me routine whenever the attention isn't on her. When he had a family event and couldn't hang out with her after school one day, she sat on the sidewalk in front of his house bawling for an hour saying he didn't love her. The 3 times he's tried to break up with her she's threatened suicide. She's got him convinced his parents are just out to break them up, they don't care about him or his happiness because they don't support the relationship, and he should drop out of school right now in the middle of his senior year and move in with her and her mom. And this boy is considering it!! He's dumped 90% of the friends he's had since fucking first grade because they don't like her and she doesn't want him associating with them. So don't give me that shit about perpetuating rape culture. There ARE girls who are players. And how/where they learned it is heartbreakingly sad, no doubt. But that doesn't excuse the fact that she is fully aware of what she is doing. 

Poor girl sounds like she needs mental health support, rather than being labeled a ‘player’. 

[Fjrocks]

    @Shadoewolf I am confused where you are going with this, this is so unlike you.  FJ thread drift is usually good but sometimes it's just not the right time to bring up another social issue that  doesn't apply.  The second scenario you brought up where the boys and girls OF THE SAME AGE are having sex and dissolving into completely unhealthy relationships would be an excellent fodder for a conversation about emotional health and sexuality in teens.  But this feels like the wrong place and time to discuss teen sexuality in general.

 The main flaw is we have zero reason to think Caleb and the victim even dated. Isn't that odd how somehow that became an assumption?  I myself made a point about the age difference being so extreme making consent impossible, even my comment wasn't particularly useful now that I think about it.  

  In our scenario,  the victim is not yet 18 based on the dates and the police have investigated this as an aggravated sexual assault, which means either she or her parents likely reported it as such.

      The victim doesn't deserve to have us using a bunch of random teen romance dramas (while also tragic) as a measuring stick. 

   

[SportsgalAnnie]

Now that things in life have settled down, I’m back. 

What the actual heck?

This is so wrong and disgusting. I’m 27 and thing 22 is pushing it. 

As someone who’s been attacked before, I find it appalling people are saying a 15 year old knows what they’re doing. Especially if said teenager lived a sheltered life.  

Where I went to school sex Ed wasn’t taught. Who knows what the victoms knew and felt ?