Caleb Williams

[HerNameIsBuffy]

41 minutes ago, grandmadugger said:

Nothing in the criminal complaint suggested a Romeo and Juliette thing. 

No, that was pure fan fiction based on nothing but the fact that there was a complaint.

literally, that’s it.  He was charged with this and the immediate go to for that person was a narrative created out of whole cloth (couched as an “opinion”) that the victim was to blame.

That’s what’s so upsetting for me, and I’m sure others.  That facts don’t matter ... even with no known facts the victim is assumed to be complicit and malicious.

fan fiction ... for fans of sexual predators I guess.

[Beermeet]

12 hours ago, CaricatureQualities said:

I have this memory of being at summer camp when I was 13 or 14. A cabin mate of mine was 15, she was pretty and cool and tough and nice and I remember her telling us in the cabin about her boyfriend who was 20. And my 14 year old self looked at her dumbfounded and said "but 20 year olds have sex". That's all remember. Now. I knew about sex, I knew friends who were starting to become sexually active...with peers..our age. But instantly I thought of a 20 year old, an adult male who would expect sex... and it bewildered me.  I mean we were at summer camp and our counselor was 17...like all the older and cooler counselors and lifeguards were. A whole 2 years older and than us at best but when you are young tiny age gaps are tremendous  and a 17 year old is still one of the "big kids" to you and they were our gracious mentors and way to cool to date little kids. And honestly, can you imagine being 20 and telling your friends self that your girlfriend is at summer camp...as a camper.  

At my high school ( at the time; late 80's to early 90's) it was seen as super cool to have an older boyfriend.  Socially, it gave the girl a one up. Something to aspire to. For real, that was the culture. To the point that dating someone in your own grade was seen as lame. So unhealthy and I bought into it. Much to my disadvantage and now, disappointment in myself.  

[nausicaa]

21 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

the immediate go to for that person was a narrative created out of whole cloth (couched as an “opinion”) that the victim was to blame.

That’s what’s so upsetting for me, and I’m sure others.  That facts don’t matter ... even with no known facts the victim is assumed to be complicit and malicious.

fan fiction ... for fans of sexual predators I guess.

Don't forget, the #metoo movement is somehow involved?

(I'm still working through the advanced calculus problem that explains their connection. Might need some grant money.)

[Lurky]

38 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

No, that was pure fan fiction based on nothing but the fact that there was a complaint. 

...

fan fiction ... for fans of sexual predators I guess.

I am really glad you said this, because I was struggling with trying to find a term for it - it seemed like such quintessential fanfic, but I was struggling with what it was a fan *of*. 

It was baffling enough to see the fanfic defenses of Toby Willis and Alan Smith, like the FJers who invented these whole convoluted stories about how young Willis children must have been coached into believing false memories (and never apologised when it turned out it was adult daughters who reported him) or the victim(s) of Alan Smith must have been coached by people who hated the family (ignoring how the S'Mortons were solidly supporting Katie and her children, and they are so isolated the kids would never come into contact with these mysterious haters) but I didn't understand how people could be such fans of Caleb Williams, who is a peripheral figure for the Duggars.  But yeah, that last line suddenly makes it clear.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

43 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Don't forget, the #metoo movement is somehow involved?

(I'm still working through the advanced calculus problem that explains their connection. Might need some grant money.)

Easy.  The #metoo movement is encouraging victims/survivors of sexual abuse/assault to speak up and stop carrying the shame that rightfully belongs to the perpetrators.

So of course anyone who speaks out does so for attention and to get back at men and ruin their lives.

at least that’s what I gather is a prevailing sentiment amongst a subset on reddit.

[Beermeet]

Omg. Fan fic-ing Toby Willis. You can't be serious. I know your serious and I'm literally nauseous.  I can't even type more. No words.

[grandmadugger]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

No, that was pure fan fiction based on nothing but the fact that there was a complaint.

literally, that’s it.  He was charged with this and the immediate go to for that person was a narrative created out of whole cloth (couched as an “opinion”) that the victim was to blame.

That’s what’s so upsetting for me, and I’m sure others.  That facts don’t matter ... even with no known facts the victim is assumed to be complicit and malicious.

fan fiction ... for fans of sexual predators I guess.

Fan fiction of sexual predators 

I am just completely flabbergasted by all of it.

One person rips Jill apart for the most BEC things but defends this guy. I can’t wrap my head around it. Jill is basically harmless in comparison.  The math just doesn’t add up. Cream of mushroom soup is more evil than sexually assaulting a child. That’s some fucked up thinking. 

[MsSaylor]

@SapphireSlytherin is and always has been a troll/shit stirrer. Where is she now to defend her vile nonsense? 

[grandmadugger]

4 minutes ago, MsSaylor said:

@SapphireSlytherin is and always has been a troll/shit stirrer. Where is she now to defend her vile nonsense? 

Maybe she is writing a thesis on the dangers of side braids and cream of mushroom soup. 

[nelliebelle1197]

On 12/19/2018 at 4:27 PM, AliceInFundyland said:

@SapphireSlytherin I would also like to point out that you condemn Josh Duggar at every possible opportunity. (Not that you are the only one. We do all have varying degrees of empathy there.) However, he has not been charged with a crime of nearly this degree. 

I really wonder if you understand the complexities of ATI and IBLP and Gothard and the culture behind the Duggars. I have never gotten the impression that you do and this leaves me even more certain.

Alice, this is what I keep thinking looking these comments. When the Josh stuff broke, I got pounded because I felt Josh was a kid himself and needed help more than anything else - help he never got, help his sisters never got. But some random Duggar-adjacent adult rapes a kid and we need both siderism and benefit of the doubt. Josh is LESS responsible than this guy because he was a teen himself yet, this ADULT gets a pass? @Mama Mia @SapphireSlytherin you are both sick.

 

[AliceInFundyland]

30 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Alice, this is what I keep thinking looking these comments. When the Josh stuff broke, I got pounded because I felt Josh was a kid himself and needed help more than anything else - help he never got, help his sisters never got. But some random Duggar-adjacent adult rapes a kid and we need both siderism and benefit of the doubt. Josh is LESS responsible than this guy because he was a teen himself yet, this ADULT gets a pass? @Mama Mia @SapphireSlytherin you are both sick.

 

I think @SapphireSlytherin has proven over and over, on a number of topics, that she is “controversial.” Clearly others are in agreement. Her reluctance to come back is bolstering that. 

I gave @Mama Mia due credit on this already, so I stick on that. I don’t recall anything else she’s drawn flack over. So, tis the holidays and I’m going with grace on her word.

ETA:

I still think the original posts were awful. I am not a black and white thinker though. There’s a lot of nuance in my opinions on various posters. If anyone knows anything about me, they should know I don’t come to decisions quickly. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

38 minutes ago, grandmadugger said:

Maybe she is writing a thesis on the dangers of side braids and cream of mushroom soup. 

Now I want cream of mushroom soup and a hair tie.  Thanks, @grandmadugger !

[AliceInFundyland]

4 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Now I want cream of mushroom soup and a hair tie.  Thanks, @grandmadugger !

I wonder if Amazon could get that to you faster than my penguin is getting to it’s intended delivery target. So easy to please!

[nelliebelle1197]

35 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

I think @SapphireSlytherin has proven over and over, on a number of topics, that she is “controversial.” Clearly others are in agreement. Her reluctance to come back is bolstering that. 

I gave @Mama Mia due credit on this already, so I stick on that. I don’t recall anything else she’s drawn flack over. So, tis the holidays and I’m going with grace on her word.

ETA:

I still think the original posts were awful. I am not a black and white thinker though. There’s a lot of nuance in my opinions on various posters. If anyone knows anything about me, they should know I don’t come to decisions quickly. 

I love you Alice.

I remember Mama Mia's other name and I also remember years of the same kind of back and forth with her. She burned me a few times. Can't go there anymore.

[AliceInFundyland]

2 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I love you Alice.

I remember Mama Mia's other name and I also remember years of the same kind of back and forth with her. She burned me a few times. Can't go there anymore.

I love you too. We must all ride our white horse of truth when we can.

[Iamtheway]

3 hours ago, Beermeet said:

At my high school ( at the time; late 80's to early 90's) it was seen as super cool to have an older boyfriend.  Socially, it gave the girl a one up. Something to aspire to. For real, that was the culture. To the point that dating someone in your own grade was seen as lame. So unhealthy and I bought into it. Much to my disadvantage and now, disappointment in myself.  

I feel like having a real live boyfriend was pretty cool in my groups of nerds. 

I don’t remember it being seen as cool to have a boyfriend that was way older though. A year or two older was normal. But the few girls I knew that had boyfriends in their 20s while they were still teens were not seen as cool. Quite the opposite actually. 

Most of us thought those guys were pretty weird. A cool boyfriend was someone we all knew and liked not some random dude that couldn’t get a girl his own age. 

This only applies to the circles I ran in though. And none of them was ever seen as cool. 

[grandmadugger]

2 minutes ago, Iamtheway said:

I feel like having a real live boyfriend was pretty cool in my groups of nerds. 

I don’t remember it being seen as cool to have a boyfriend that was way older though. A year or two older was normal. But the few girls I knew that had boyfriends in their 20s while they were still teens were not seen as cool. Quite the opposite actually. 

Most of us thought those guys were pretty weird. A cool boyfriend was someone we all knew and liked not some random dude that couldn’t get a girl his own age. 

This only applies to the circles I ran in though. And none of them was ever seen as cool. 

Having someone 21 to buy the booze was nice to have. I was the one “dating” the 21 year old.  It was not really dating in the true sense but we kept the charade up until my grandma called us out. We had grown up together, our parents went to school together. We were basically inseparable except for the time frame where it would have been weird for us to be hanging out. It was just always assumed we would end up together. Once I was old enough we started dating. It lasted about 6 months until my grandma looked at us and said “This isn’t dating. You haven’t even kissed each other. Little pecks on the cheek don’t count.” We split and decided to wait awhile. We tried again after I graduated high school and again after college. Third time was not the charm, we realized that we are just friends no matter what others thought. 

[Beermeet]

1 hour ago, Iamtheway said:

I feel like having a real live boyfriend was pretty cool in my groups of nerds. 

I don’t remember it being seen as cool to have a boyfriend that was way older though. A year or two older was normal. But the few girls I knew that had boyfriends in their 20s while they were still teens were not seen as cool. Quite the opposite actually. 

Most of us thought those guys were pretty weird. A cool boyfriend was someone we all knew and liked not some random dude that couldn’t get a girl his own age. 

This only applies to the circles I ran in though. And none of them was ever seen as cool. 

I've spoken to a few women that I went to school with about these matters. So, only very few did the bf in his very early 20's and yes, we thought it gross and too much. Those creeps that continued to hang around a few yrs after graduation.  Besides that, it was being a freshman and having a bf in 11th or 12th kind of thing.  We grew up in a small town, graduating classes numbered about 130 kids.  I can't explain it. It just was. The most popular girl had a bf ( she was in 11th) who was much older that took her to French restaurants.  We were so jelly. It's gross, I know. It seemed pretty messed up then but, it just was. Marrying a HS sweetheart was idolized.  And, plenty did do that after college.  In a small town on LI at a certain time, this was normal.  What landed up happening is a lot of girls ( myself included) dated a guy who was in 12th while we were in 10th and he went to college.  That's when the major disadvantage really kicked in. But, it was seen as totes ok because you had met in HS.  I can only speak about my specific school at that time. It was a harsh environment.  I thought it normal until I came to California and no one had the same stories.  They also had 2,000 people in their graduating class. So different.  We has 2 elementary schools, 1 middle and 1 HS for 2 towns. Just, so very different.  

ETA: many had immigrant parents or grandparents from Italy, Ireland and Poland. Very Catholic . That's gotta have something to do with this. Old world Catholic shit. 

[scribble]

On 12/19/2018 at 11:00 PM, Shadoewolf said:

My ex and I tried to intervene. We gave his parents the phone number for her parents. They spoke numerous times. The girl's older sister had a baby at 16 too, **her parents didn't care so long as they weren't supporting her**.   And yes, she did know what she was doing. She wasn't a virgin when they met. In their wedding photo that still hangs in his parents living room, she is absolutely BEAMING, while he really does look like there's a gun to his head.

 

 

This is third post I've seen where you condemn a 15-year-old CHILD for choices she's made while all but ignoring the choices made by a 22-year-old ADULT.  Assuming the age of consent at that time in your state was older than 15 -- their sexual relationship was not legal and that is on the ADULT in the situation, not the child. It is absolutely awful that no one who had knowledge of the situation at that time contacted the police. 

[Carm_88]

10 minutes ago, scribble said:

 It is absolutely awful that no one who had knowledge of the situation at that time contacted the police. 

They wouldn't contact the police because the HE in the situation would have been charged. They wouldn't have been able to blame the conniving girl if that was the case.  

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, scribble said:

This is third post I've seen where you condemn a 15-year-old CHILD for choices she's made while all but ignoring the choices made by a 22-year-old ADULT.  Assuming the age of consent at that time in your state was older than 15 -- their sexual relationship was not legal and that is on the ADULT in the situation, not the child. It is absolutely awful that no one who had knowledge of the situation at that time contacted the police. 

Speaking of which -

@Shadoewolf, I know life gets busy and you may not have been on much the last few days, but I’d appreciate an answer to my earlier question. I’ll ask it again - Did you or any other adult in the situation with your BIL contact the police?

[Beermeet]

@VelociRapture  You know what's really sad? I don't have faith in calling the police. What with predators typically released quickly, rape kits backed up big time, the trauma the victim goes through due to lack of empathy and harsh environment,  victim blaming, long waiting time for court cases.  It's so depressing.  

[grandmadugger]

@Beermeet that’s very much the culture here during my high school time but much smaller, classes were around 20, and no immigrants but still very old school thought process. It is kinda sad really. Everyone would have rejoiced had we married and no one but my grandma understood that there was no physical attraction between us. 

[Shadoewolf]

Yeah working back to back doubles and today my kiddo was placed on what can only be described as a suicide watch at home had me a little busy. (he's having issues due to his father leaving and his ASD just amplifies everything. He's gotta be under *constant* watch at all times. Oldest and I are trading off every few hours on who sits with him). He's asleep across the room. 

No, nobody called the police. I was 19-20ish at the time and while the *legal* age of consent in Michigan is 16, she was all for it and I will say this yet again too. She pursued him just as much. (Think Alicia Silverstone in the Crush). Her parents wouldn't call the police because they didn't care. They already had one daughter who was pregnant by 16 and this one just followed along.His parents liked her until they found out how old she was!!  Which they conveniently didn't tell his parents, the ex and I did!! His parents forbade him from bringing her to their house until she got pregnant but didn't call the police because *she was all for it*.  His parents told the ex and I to stay out of it because it wouldn't matter what we said, neither of them would listen anyway. So no. Would I call the police now if I saw something similar? Of course!!!! 

[AliceInFundyland]

Please take care of your kid.

Alicia Silverstone in the Crush was a fictional character who arranged accidents and stole condoms from wastebaskets to fake rapes.