Caleb Williams

[Mama Mia]

3 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

Yeah working back to back doubles and today my kiddo was placed on what can only be described as a suicide watch at home had me a little busy. (he's having issues due to his father leaving and his ASD just amplifies everything. He's gotta be under *constant* watch at all times. Oldest and I are trading off every few hours on who sits with him). He's asleep across the room. 

No, nobody called the police. I was 19-20ish at the time and while the *legal* age of consent in Michigan is 16, she was all for it and I will say this yet again too. She pursued him just as much. (Think Alicia Silverstone in the Crush). Her parents wouldn't call the police because they didn't care. They already had one daughter who was pregnant by 16 and this one just followed along.His parents liked her until they found out how old she was!!  Which they conveniently didn't tell his parents, the ex and I did!! His parents forbade him from bringing her to their house until she got pregnant but didn't call the police because *she was all for it*.  His parents told the ex and I to stay out of it because it wouldn't matter what we said, neither of them would listen anyway. So no. Would I call the police now if I saw something similar? Of course!!!! 

I’m so sorry you are going through such a rough time with your son.

[scribble]

7 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

No, nobody called the police. I was 19-20ish at the time and while the *legal* age of consent in Michigan is 16, she was all for it and I will say this yet again too. She pursued him just as much. (Think Alicia Silverstone in the Crush). Her parents wouldn't call the police because they didn't care. They already had one daughter who was pregnant by 16 and this one just followed along.His parents liked her until they found out how old she was!!  Which they conveniently didn't tell his parents, the ex and I did!! His parents forbade him from bringing her to their house until she got pregnant but didn't call the police because *she was all for it*.  His parents told the ex and I to stay out of it because it wouldn't matter what we said, neither of them would listen anyway. So no. Would I call the police now if I saw something similar? Of course!!!! 

This 15-year-old's family background is all the more reason to step in and protect her from a 22-year-old adult that you excuse over and over again. Are you actually excusing yourself from calling the police because you were 19? But the girl who was 4 years YOUNGER than you somehow responsible for what happened between her and a 22 year old. But that is exactly what it sounds like here.

Again, she was legally a child.... below the age of consent. It doesn't matter if she was two minutes below the age of 16.... a sexual relationship with her was wrong. You spend a lot of time blaming her, her parents.... it's interesting that everyone is at fault here but the 22-year-old adult who actually was legally responsible.

[VelociRapture]

9 hours ago, Beermeet said:

@VelociRapture  You know what's really sad? I don't have faith in calling the police. What with predators typically released quickly, rape kits backed up big time, the trauma the victim goes through due to lack of empathy and harsh environment,  victim blaming, long waiting time for court cases.  It's so depressing.  

I can certainly understand your point here. That doesn’t absolve the adults involved of the responsibility though. If her parents weren’t going to protect her by keeping him away from her then someone else needed to. 

@Shadoewolf Thank you for responding.

I agree with others. I think you’re assigning far too much blame on the only person involved who was still legally a child. It doesn’t matter how much she might have pursued him - he was the adult and he was the one who had the legal, moral, and ethical obligation to say no to her. And while I’m glad you apparently have learned from this experience I’m also extremely saddened by the fact that you (and the other adults involved) failed to help this girl when she clearly needed it and I’m frustrated by the fact that you continue to assign her a large portion of the blame. 

Again. It does not matter how she was acting or how old she looked or anything like that. What matters is that she was still considered a minor and was incapable of legally consenting to any sexual relationship with your former BIL. 

(And I hope your child is doing ok. I know you’re busy taking care of them, but remember to take care of yourself too.)

[formergothardite]

8 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

Yeah working back to back doubles and today my kiddo was placed on what can only be described as a suicide watch at home had me a little busy. (he's having issues due to his father leaving and his ASD just amplifies everything. He's gotta be under *constant* watch at all times. Oldest and I are trading off every few hours on who sits with him). He's asleep across the room. 

No, nobody called the police. I was 19-20ish at the time and while the *legal* age of consent in Michigan is 16, she was all for it and I will say this yet again too. She pursued him just as much. (Think Alicia Silverstone in the Crush). Her parents wouldn't call the police because they didn't care. They already had one daughter who was pregnant by 16 and this one just followed along.His parents liked her until they found out how old she was!!  Which they conveniently didn't tell his parents, the ex and I did!! His parents forbade him from bringing her to their house until she got pregnant but didn't call the police because *she was all for it*.  His parents told the ex and I to stay out of it because it wouldn't matter what we said, neither of them would listen anyway. So no. Would I call the police now if I saw something similar? Of course!!!! 

I completely understand if responding to a thread online is not a priority. Please take care of yourself and your child. 

Whenever or if ever you get the time to think about this thread, please take the time to consider the ramifications of excusing an adult for preying on a child because the child "wanted it". Sadly this mindset it too common. In NC an 11 year old girl was raped by a man in his early 20's. She connected with him when she got on a dating app and pretended to be 16. People have been blaming her for her rape by using the exact same line you used. They claim that well, she pursued him, She went back after he raped her once so she must have liked it. This is despite the police saying he knew her age at the time the rape took place. People are downplaying the horror of an adult raping an 11 year old child by saying she was all into it and wanted it. 

It DOESN'T matter if the child is all for it. Adults entering a relationship with a child and having sex with that child is not excusable. It is on the adult to refuse to exploit children. We should not blame the child if they are exploited by adult who know better. 

[Carm_88]

"But she..." needs to stop. She was a child, he was an adult. He should have been reported because he was having a sexual relationship with a child under the legal age of consent. Sounds like she had a bad home life and may have been pursuing inappropriate relationships. Which means that the adult in this situation should have known better and not had sex with her. 

[Palimpsest]

5 hours ago, scribble said:

This 15-year-old's family background is all the more reason to step in and protect her from a 22-year-old adult that you excuse over and over again. Are you actually excusing yourself from calling the police because you were 19? But the girl who was 4 years YOUNGER than you somehow responsible for what happened between her and a 22 year old. But that is exactly what it sounds like here.

Again, she was legally a child.... below the age of consent. It doesn't matter if she was two minutes below the age of 16.... a sexual relationship with her was wrong. You spend a lot of time blaming her, her parents.... it's interesting that everyone is at fault here but the 22-year-old adult who actually was legally responsible.

Yes, and police, nothing.  No-one even thought to drop a dime and make a confidential call to CPS for this unfortunate child's situation.  Her parents were obviously neglecting her in many ways, not just over the statutory rape.  The whole thing makes me suspect a history of child abuse, and goodness knows if there were younger children still in the home.

@Shadoewolf, I am sorry you are having such a hard time and I hope your son stays safe.  However, it doesn't excuse this constant victim-blaming of your SIL.  Perhaps you should step away and take care of things at home until you can think this over.  You are making things worse for yourself at the moment.

I hate to think what holiday meals and family get togethers are like in the Shadoewolf family.  Do you all sit around shaming and glaring at the horrible slut who seduced your oh-so-not-a-criminal innocent flower of a brother-who-is-a-disgrace-to-humankind when she was only a child of 15?

I want to puke.

[TZmom]

While I agree that Shadoewolf is placing far too much blame on the victim,  I can kind of see where she's coming from as far as not reporting. 

(Hold on,  let me explain myself before you get angry)

Now,  if I remember correctly,  she said she was 19 at the time.  When I was 19, I wouldn't have reported either.  I would have thought it was terrible,  obviously,  but my opinion (AT THAT TIME) would have been that it was none of my business and it was up to her parents to deal with it. 

Now,  as an adult and no longer a naive, sheltered child,  I would absolutely,  100% report it.   But knowing myself at that age,  I'm sure I would have stayed out of it the best I could. 

[nausicaa]

2 minutes ago, TZmom said:

Now,  as an adult and no longer a naive, sheltered child,  I would absolutely,  100% report it.   But knowing myself at that age,  I'm sure I would have stayed out of it the best I could. 

Fair enough. When I was 17, I met some friends through my boyfriend. One of them was probably early forties. (I mean, everyone over 27 looks ancient when you're a teenager, but this dude was definitely pushing middle aged). He had flashy cars and a bunch of arcade games lining his garage and always had teenage boys at his house. One kid in particular was a year or two younger than me, and was always around with him. I believe they even went on a beach trip together and shared a room. There were never any parents in sight. 

At the time I didn't really think much of it. We're all so cool and mature here right? (Wrong.) Now that I'm an adult I have a lot of guilt that I didn't ask more questions or tell someone. It's so painfully obvious what was going on. I guess it's another example of how teenagers lack the life experience and maturity to really process things. 

[TZmom]

Just now, nausicaa said:

 I guess it's another example of how teenagers lack the life experience and maturity to really process things. 

Exactly!

[singsingsing]

Not reporting something like that as a teenager is one thing. But continuing to defend the perpetrator and blame the victim as an adult? There is absolutely no excuse for that.

[TZmom]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

Not reporting something like that as a teenager is one thing. But continuing to defend the perpetrator and blame the victim as an adult? There is absolutely no excuse for that.

Oh absolutely. I did acknowledge that much,  but I understand her perspective at that age. 

[ViolaSebastian]

39 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Yeas, and police, nothing.  No-one even thought to drop a dime and make a confidential call to CPS for this unfortunate child's situation.  Her parents were obviously neglecting her in many ways, not just over the statutory rape.  The whole thing makes me suspect a history of child abuse, and goodness knows if there were younger children still in the home.

To add to this, there are 18 states where EVERYONE is a mandated reporter of child abuse and neglect. If the moral imperative in a situation isn't enough, there may also be legal repercussions if people fail to report. 

[Palimpsest]

37 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

To add to this, there are 18 states where EVERYONE is a mandated reporter of child abuse and neglect. If the moral imperative in a situation isn't enough, there may also be legal repercussions if people fail to report. 

I really wish that charging people for failure to report was more frequent and the penalties were much higher.

1 hour ago, TZmom said:

Oh absolutely. I did acknowledge that much,  but I understand her perspective at that age. 

To be clear:  it's her victim-blaming perspective towards her SIL at her present age and the fact that she is a parent herself today that make me want to puke.  Is she going to instill those attitudes and values into her children?

 

[TZmom]

7 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I really wish that charging people for failure to report was more frequent and the penalties were much higher.

To be clear:  it's her victim-blaming perspective towards her SIL at her present age and the fact that she is a parent herself today that make me want to puke.  Is she going to instill those attitudes and values into her children?

 

I 100 agree with you.  Her current attitude and actions are abhorrent. I was commenting only on her actions in that time period. 

[Shadoewolf]

Wow. That's all I can say. There is no victim blaming now. They were legally married and expecting a baby together, end of story. Nothing was going to change it so we accepted the situation (and her) and let it go.  Their daughter is almost 18 now. They're still married and there hasn't been any thought to those circumstances in well over a decade. They live 8 blocks from me. Their kids and mine are peas in a pod. There's nothing to get freakishly hyped over anymore.  

AND I HAVE ALREADY SAID NOW THAT I'M OLDER MY PERSPECTIVE IS DIFFERENT. IF I SAW SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENING TODAY I WOULD REPORT IT. LEARN TO READ ALL THE WAY THROUGH PLEASE!!!!

[singsingsing]

19 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

Wow. That's all I can say. There is no victim blaming now. They were legally married and expecting a baby together, end of story. Nothing was going to change it so we accepted the situation (and her) and let it go.  Their daughter is almost 18 now. They're still married and there hasn't been any thought to those circumstances in well over a decade. They live 8 blocks from me. Their kids and mine are peas in a pod. There's nothing to get freakishly hyped over anymore.  

AND I HAVE ALREADY SAID NOW THAT I'M OLDER MY PERSPECTIVE IS DIFFERENT. IF I SAW SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENING TODAY I WOULD REPORT IT. LEARN TO READ ALL THE WAY THROUGH PLEASE!!!!

Excuse me? You have been all over this thread blaming a 15-year-old girl for ‘going after’ a 22-year-man, somehow making him get her pregnant, and ‘knowing exactly what she was doing’. Your perspective on this is sick. Trust me, I think we’ve all read your disgusting comments all the way through. You have a lot of nerve shouting at people to ‘learn to read’ when you’ve been on a crusade here to defend and excuse statutory rape. You’re not going to win anyone over to your side on this. Maybe you should step back and reflect on why that is.

[bal maiden]

Have there been any public Duggar reactions to Caleb and his brother’s arrest? 

[onekidanddone]

A great aunt of mine who died many years ago was once was trashing a young woman who had been molested by her father. Great Aunt Rape Apologist said "No, she must be lying because "Mary" (not her real name) hated her father. My great aunt was mean sharp tonged woman, and her comment about the victim was only the tip of the iceberg.

How could anybody think that way? Well they do, and I'm not very forgiving. 

[Shadoewolf]

Frankly I don't care about winning sides over something that happened 18 years ago. My mind has changed since then as far as adult/child relationships. If I saw it happening today I'd report it. I've also seen my share of predatory girls over the last few years having daughters in high school. Over and done on this subject. 

[Walking Cat Bed]

So, my sister's first boyfriend was 18. She still, at 39, says that she absolutely agreed to the relationship and that it was consensual and equal. She insists that she was treated like a queen, and that it was the perfect first relationship.

She was 11 when they met and twelve when the physical aspects began. 

[Kailash]

@Shadoewolf You seem to have missed the very important fact that a 15 year old girl CANNOT consent to sex with a 22 year old man. No matter how mature, or how much she pursues him. Because of the age difference. Never ever ever. No one wants to villify you. We want you to understand and acknowledge that simple fact. 

I’m sorry your son is having such a rough time. I hope the situation improves for him. 

[Walking Cat Bed]

And on the topic of the teenage "seductress" with an adult...

 

The adult in question needs to realize that, as the adult, it was his responsibility to refuse to pursue anything. She could lock him in a room and refuse to let him out unless he gave her access to his penis and he should refuse.

[Four is Enough]

In defense of Shadoewolf, I have to say that if the girl's parents didn't complain, I don't think complaints by any other person would have made an impression on the authorities.(UNLESS she was claiming abuse by parents)  And once the girl was pregnant, she had the right to keep the baby by her side, and would they both have been better off in foster care?

This is a paradox. There are parents who don't care . I don't know if the girl is better off with her husband, but she does.

I agree that she didn't have the legal status to decide if she was able to have sex. I agree that the onus was on the man. 

[AliceInFundyland]

51 minutes ago, Walking Cat Bed said:

So, my sister's first boyfriend was 18. She still, at 39, says that she absolutely agreed to the relationship and that it was consensual and equal. She insists that she was treated like a queen, and that it was the perfect first relationship.

She was 11 when they met and twelve when the physical aspects began. 

Someone upthread mentioned the movie The Tale. I have finally managed to get through it. Quite relevant to all things discussed here. Only available via HBO though.

[singsingsing]

3 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

In defense of Shadoewolf, I have to say that if the girl's parents didn't complain, I don't think complaints by any other person would have made an impression on the authorities.(UNLESS she was claiming abuse by parents)  And once the girl was pregnant, she had the right to keep the baby by her side, and would they both have been better off in foster care?

This is a paradox. There are parents who don't care . I don't know if the girl is better off with her husband, but she does.

I agree that she didn't have the legal status to decide if she was able to have sex. I agree that the onus was on the man. 

Again, not reporting it is one thing. But @Shadoewolf has literally been blaming a 15-year-old girl for ‘seducing’ a 22-year-old man and following it up with tangents about how many ‘predatory girls’ she knows. This isn’t really about her not reporting this crime as a teenager. It’s about the fact that she is blaming a 15-year-old girl for being sexually abused and casting her 22-year-old abuser as the victim. Not only is that wrong, it’s scary. She claims she’d act differently now, but I don’t believe her. She’d blame the ‘predatory girl’ and focus on lamenting the plight of the poor adult man who apparently is not in control of his own penis.