Caleb Williams

[JordynDarby5]

Wow, I can't believe there are people on this site defending Caleb Williams. But I'm happy to see so many great replies against those. Each one of those replies was so great and so correct. And so great to see. The one who said that people who defend Caleb and others are the reason why more aren't reported. That is exactly correct and I am so sorry for it. No one deserves that for pressing charges against the person who assaulted them. Any woman no matter what age she is when she comes forward is always immediately attacked. She gets endless grief, endless criticisms, and so many times the case goes no where. She gets interrogated by police trying to find any and all ways its "her fault", if it even gets to trial she gets torn to shred even more. Made out to be a tramp, slut or out to get him. It is absolutely disgusting how many people practically trip over themselves to defend and protect the poor boy or poor man. All he did was assault someone. Its the same reason it took so long for Cosby, Nassar, and Weinstein to be caught. Its the same reason there are still men and teenage boys all over the place getting away with doing whatever they want to women. I am so fucking sick of it. Why are never outraged at what they did? There is no excuse for assaulting anyone. 

How can anyone defend a man who assaulted a 14 year old girl? I don't care if she's the most sophisticated 14 year old in the world. She's still 14. It it is illegal and she is too young to give consent. Why is someone older so interested in a girl that age? There's a reason. I do love how many of you brought up grooming. That is very important part that so many people seem either not to understand or see. It is very important. So many don't realize they are being groomed. Teens don't always understand the danger or stop to wonder why someone older is interested in them or that they are lying. I've mentioned in one of Josie's threads in the Bates section about a teenager girl who was friend on Facebook by a man in his thirties. Amazingly he was interested in almost everything she was! He was nice and friendly. One day she left her Facebook open and her dad saw it. He immediately called the police and the man was arrested. He had a history of assaulting teenage girls. It wasn't until then the teen realized the danger she was in. She had no idea, she never once considered that the man was lying or had alternative motive in befriending her. That's why we have consent laws because there are so many disgusting people who want do harm to teens and kids.     

[nastyhobbitses]

My thoughts: if a grown man in his mid-twenties is pursuing sex with a teenage girl at least five years younger than him, he's a creep. Plain and fucking simple. I tend to conceptualize age gaps in relationships as gaps in life stages; I've brought this up before, but I'm 27 and dating a guy in his forties. But I'm nearly 6 years out of college, have an advanced degree, working a full-time job, and living on my own -- I'm an adult with a decent amount of life experience and given that the guy I'm dating is not my boss or sugar daddy, there's pretty much no power differential in our relationship. We're equals despite the 15-year gap. But when I was 16, I had a "fling" with a 23-year-old guy. It never went beyond making out, but there was a definite gap in developmental stages and thus power: he was a grown man with an Associate's degree and living out in the world, I was a 16-year-old girl who was still in high school, living with her parents, and hadn't even gotten her driver's license yet. Instead of going for a girl in her twenties, or even maybe a 19-year-old who had finished school and had some life experience similar to him, 23-year-old guy went for me, a naive high school girl who mostly knew about sex and relationships from fan fiction. Creepy. I was so mad when my parents made me stop seeing him, but now I'm glad they saw the relationship for what it was. 

Caleb is a grown-ass man and he was having penetrative sex with an underage girl; I can abso-fucking-lutely guarantee that this wasn't some Romeo and Juliet shit where oopsies he's a freshman in college who bangs his 17-year-old girlfriend who's a year behind him (which I think is pretty much fine). This was a grown man who had a sexual relationship with a teenage girl whom he could exploit. And if she was as young as THIRTEEN, it's even fucking worse. No. There is no defense of Caleb. I hope that he gets the punishment he rightly deserves, and shame on the Duggars for allowing a parade of predators into their home. 

[Ali]

The fact that the parents of a 15 year old did not try to stop her from dating a 22 year old tells me that she was a victim long before she met this creep. I have to go get ready for a sub job and I am going to be around teenagers all day. I should have not have looked at this thread this morning.

[Natalie22]

16 minutes ago, Ali said:

The fact that the parents of a 15 year old did not try to stop her from dating a 22 year old tells me that she was a victim long before she met this creep. I have to go get ready for a sub job and I am going to be around teenagers all day. I should have not have looked at this thread this morning.

While I'm not a teacher, I've done some work both tutoring high school students, middle schoolers, and working in science outreach with the same age group.  I've done so since my early twenties even though I'm now 27.  How anyone can defend a relationship between someone who has left high school and a 14 year old is beyond me.  Even 16 year olds seem so young.  These are people who I cannot convince to study, even during commercial breaks of their favourite show, despite the consequences of not studying and the benefits of doing well.  Even when I started working with them, I could see that with 5-6 years age difference, there was a huge gulf between us.  I paid my own bills, cleaned and cooked for myself, had to motivate myself to do my responsibilities, etc.  These kids couldn't even fathom that, despite seeming desperate for the independence I had.  There is no way to look at those relationships and not see a huge power difference.

[BernRul]

@Shadoewolf I'm confused. You wrote a lot about a teen girl manipulating a teen boy. Which, okay, fine, but that's not the issue here. No one's claiming that girls can't be abusers. But that's an example of people who are around the same age.

What we have a problem with is the pregnant 15 year old with the 22 year old.  It's not that girls are always sweet and innocent. It's that when sex happens between an adult  and a child (because legally, that girl is a child) than the child is always a victim.

Your BIL looked like he had a gun to his head? That bitch is lucky he's not on the sex offenders registry. I don't care if she was smiling, she is still a child and he is not. 

That's the issue here. Not that all girls are pure little angels. 

[SilverBeach]

8 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

she pursued him just as much which is sad as hell

Yes it is. Looking for love in all the wrong places. Not something to be taken advantage of.

8 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

This girl was not a victim in the traditional rape sense.

What is the "traditional rape sense"?

[SilverBeach]

8 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

The crazy chick he's gotten involved with?

An emotionally disturbed young woman. Your anecdote hardly applies to the vast majority of children who are sexually taken advantage of, and I don't care if they think they want it or not. This sad young woman needs help, maybe you should have intervened with her instead of the young man.

[VelociRapture]

@Shadoewolf I have only one question for you (and if you already answered then I’m sorry for asking again.) Did you or any of the other adults involved contact the police about your BIL’s situation? 

[SilverBeach]

8 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

There ARE girls who are players. And how/where they learned it is heartbreakingly sad, no doubt. But that doesn't excuse the fact that she is fully aware of what she is doing. 

Player? Did she try to manipulate a group of boys? This poor girl may not be fully aware of anything. Emotionally disturbed people often behave in ways they do not understand at all, even more so when talking about an immature brain. It appears that you like the boy and just don't like the girl, and this is affecting your viewpoint about the whole thing. If her behavior is as described, she may indeed be unlikable in some ways. But a little compassion is in order. The young man needs professional advice in how to extricate himself from the situation, if that is what he wants. I think an abundance of caution is in order when vilifying young teenage girls using the Lolita trope. It's dangerous. And it does perpetuate rape culture.

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

Well, this thread is a gong show. Let's all remember that there's no evidence that the victim "consented" and that 14 year olds may think they're mature but they're really tiny babies. Has no one heard the "half your age plus 7" thing?

[nastyhobbitses]

33 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Yes it is. Looking for love in all the wrong places. Not something to be taken advantage of.

Exactly. If you're a grown man and an underage girl has a crush on you/is pursuing you sexually, be a goddamn responsible adult and say "Susie, having a crush on someone is totally natural and OK, but I'm an adult and you're still a kid. This is inappropriate and we need to have boundaries now." If you take advantage of natural crushes and kids just starting to figure out the whole sexuality thing (saying this as a woman who was taken advantage of as a teen, though it wasn't NEARLY as bad as it could have ended up), you're a creep, plain and simple. You don't get to play "oh, she seduced me", because you're a goddamn adult and capable of expressing and forming healthy, firm boundaries. 

[lumpentheologie]

19 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

You don't get to play "oh, she seduced me", because you're a goddamn adult and capable of expressing and forming healthy, firm boundaries. 

Yeah, this "men just can't control themselves when around a brazen female" bit is unfortunately still pretty common even outside of fundie circles. And it's a major pillar of rape culture. 

ETA: It was also the excuse a friend's totally liberal and secular husband used when he said he just couldn't stop this girl at a party from giving him a blow job. ?

 

[apandaaries]

Regarding false rape accusations, I'd like to point out that even those charged and found guilty of false accusations are sometimes victims of not only rape but of the police system.  There's a horror story about a former foster child who aged out of the system and was violently raped by an Army vet. He was very careful to rape women in different police districts, knowing that cops don't often talk to other departments.  He was very disciplined in his attacks but had a certain modus operandi that helped the female detectives from different departments who cooperated (unlike many of their male counterparts) finally track him down.

But this former foster kid didn't meet with one of those female detectives. She met with a male detective who'd been warned by others close to her that her story seemed suspicious.* They doubted her, so he did too. Her housing, which was publicly-supported as a place for transitioning foster folk, was threatened. She tried to walk away from the claim and the trouble, but got hit with charges for making a false allegation. She was basically coerced into lying about having been raped. There's a long read about it here: https://www.propublica.org/article/false-rape-accusations-an-unbelievable-story

She's been awarded $150,000 for her troubles, but I'm not sure if that's anywhere near equal to the trauma she endured at the hands of those who were supposed to help her. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/lynnwood-to-pay-rape-victim-150000-in-false-claim-suit/

And from NPR: https://www.npr.org/2018/02/06/583778370/a-false-report-highlights-how-women-who-report-sexual-assault-are-treated

So let's remember that even those tried and convicted of filing false rape reports are sometimes railroaded by the system in other ways. 

*Worth noting that the disbelief of people close to her helped sway police in many ways (though that department had a suspiciously high rate of "false" reports of rape).  That her story was immediately doubted -- in this case, they thought she was "looking for attention" -- is exactly what so many victims of sexual abuse face, just like we've seen here, on FJ, of all places. 

This story is a sad example of just what happens to women in the worst case scenarios when their credibility and stories are doubted. Why look for a guilty predator when one can discount and discredit the victim? Much easier than actually holding men accountable for their actions.

 

[theotherelise]

I student taught 8th and 9th graders when I was 21. I had one 15 year old male student who would say inappropriate things to me, suggestive and flirtatious. I told my supervising teacher and I made it clear to him that his comments were inappropriate and would not be accepted. He would be sent to the counselor if he said anything else. I thought a lot about my attire around the young people and I did not let the line blur between our separate roles. And guess what? That doesn't make me a saint. I didn't do anything extra special. I was behaving like an adult who had the burden of responsibility to enforce the boundaries.

We have no idea what the details are of Williams' crimes, and I hope that the minor victim has their privacy protected from that. 

My only point is that even in these situations some posters are bringing up about young teens fully consenting to sexual relations with adults, they are missing that it does not matter at all what the teens think or believe or how they act. It is always on the adult to keep the relationship appropriate, and if nothing else, remove themselves from further interactions. It is not hard not to have sex with someone. Even for men. Even if young girls are expressing misguided interest. 

[Glasgowghirl]

I have known a few girls aged 14 and 15 that did sleep with a few older guys and had reputations at the time as sluts and now they are older and with children of their own they realise that they were acting that way because they had low self esteem and realise that they were being used by said men. At the time they thought they were old enough and mature enough to be in adult relationships, now they realise differently. 

When I was 14, I looked older because I have huge breasts and older men did Woolf whistle me at times, not knowing my age. At that age I was still thinking I'd be a pop star, when I grew up and still watched the kid's TV strand after school, even the girl's that did lose their virginity at that age were the same. 

[onekidanddone]

I tried reading all of the posts, but I have a 15 year old daughter and it was just too upsetting.

Even if and that is a big if the victim thinks they are in love or what ever with an adult, it is still abuse.  Teenagers make rash decisions, don't have the critical thinking stills and are a flood of hormones. The abuser knows how to pick out the kids more likely to fall into their trap, to groom the child, to prey on the child's emotions.

In high school (way back in the 20th century) I had a friend who had a "boyfriend" who was in his 20s. I remember trying to tell her he was an abuser, but she wouldn't have it.  Her parents especially her mom knew and seemed fine with it. Looking back on it now I wish I had the sense and the maturity to blow the whistle, but I was only a kid myself.

It matters not if the victim thinks they aren't a victim, they still are. There are no excuses, no way to rationalize this. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

What is the "traditional rape sense"?

Good question.

This is right up there with argument I had with an old classmate over someone not being "raped enough". That ended in me saying fuck you and fuck your shitty politics for thinking it is ok to say people who weren't "rapped enough" need to sit down and shut up.

This is the last I'm saying on this disgusting topic.  A 14 year old girl chasing a 15 year old boy and messing around is consenting and knowing what she's doing.  A 14 year old girl chasing a 21 year old man THINKS she knows what she is doing.  Having just gotten my kids out of these ages there is a HUGE difference in maturity between 14 & 16 and hell even 16 and 17. In the late teen stages it is amazing the leaps some kids can make in their sense of understanding over the course of a few months. When these kids are allowed to be out by themselves, have their own money and are making their own choices. The changes in both my kids from 16 to 16 1/2 was very eye opening in that six months they were given their 1st real sense of autonomy, a job & access to transportation when they needed it. It is very different from having to rely on parents to drive you to this and that and here and there. 

TL;DR No, a 14 year old girl has no idea what she is getting into with a 21 year old man.  

[TuringMachine]

15 hours ago, Iamtheway said:

Thank you! I have always thought that 2%-10% sounds way, way too high. The problem with false accusations is so small compared with the actual problem: The sexual assaults and the fact that so many of them never are reported at all. 

Plus people's perception of who a false rape accuser is is wrong. Many (if not most), myself included at one point, pictured people who falsely claim to be rapped were women trying to screw over a man be it because she's spiteful or he's in a position of power.  In reality the people that fit this profile are a very very small number. It's insane to doubt someone's claim of being raped just because a tiny number of people who are accused of rape are innocent.

 

To add onto the different places have different ages of consent topic, not only are the ages dependant on state, but the laws can be very different as well. For example the two places I'm most familiar with: New Jersey, where the age of consent is 16 unless the older person is a relative or a position of authority, in which case it's 18, plus there's a close in age for people aged 13-15 who are with someone less than 4 years older, and California, where the age of consent is a strict 18 years old with no close in age exception.

[eveandadam]

My cousin was 14 when her parents allowed her to date a 21 year old drug addict. They did everything, of course and the parents thought she was "mature" for her age. In reality, she was one of the least mature girls of her age. Today, she has a good, normal life, but I still feel sorry for her. When this happened, I was 16 and did not think about doing anything physical with anyone. I almost felt threatened by the situation when I went out with them (Yes, going out at 14 and 16 years old because he had a car). She even went on holiday with him to Spain. She told me that he gave her drugs there and she spent a whole day past out in the toilet. Today I think wtf!!!!!!! I would never allow my daughter (if I had one) or my son for that matter to date someone 7 years older when they are a teen. Her parents were neglecting her, at best.

 

[adidas]

15 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Everyone is talking about men having sex with young girls and I agree that makes it a lot worse, but I still think those relationships are wrong when they're not having sex. I say that because I've seen people here excuse fundie men pursuing girls much younger than them with, among other excuses, "they're not having sex," but those relationships can still be harmful for the girls without sex, and no matter what I think it's creepy when men go after girls rather than women closer to their own age.

Exactly.

Think of Matthew and Maranatha Chapman. If they’d met when they were 65 and 53? Fine. The power dynamics are different. But a 26 year old pursuing a 13 year old Is never okay. 

For those who don’t know the story:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2013/12/the-rest-of-the-maranatha-story.html

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

Shame on anybody who defends Caleb Williams. a man in his 20's hooking up with a minor is just wrong. Plus if this young woman is from a fundie family, she probably has no education about consent or about sex in general.

I have a story. When I was 15, I met a gorgeous guy at the mall with my friend. We exchanged numbers, and had a really good conversation (I was a well spoken teenager and many were confused about my age). It came out that he was 20, and I was 15 and he respectfully backed away.

My parents heard about this, and had a talk with me about predatory older men. I didn't see him as predatory, and at 15 I didn't want my parents telling me who to date. The friend I was with, who was almost a year older than me, said that if he wanted to, he could be with me. After all, she had already been with an older man. I felt inadequate because he didn't pursue me further, and I wanted to be seen as mature and worthy of a hot boyfriend, but something about my friend's stories about her older boyfriend made me uncomfortable. She had developed young; by sixth grade she slready had boobs and a period, and knew a lot about adult topics, but even my 15 year old self thought that her older guy sounded like a creep.

About a year later, I ran into the older guy again (I was now 16, and he was 21). It was summer, and my folks were out of town. He went to university near where I lived, and was riding his bike on my street. We wound up hanging out on my lawn for an hour until a friend of mine came along (she was 18, and staying at the house with me while my parents were away).  We decided to make a cake and invite the guy over after his class. When he came over lately, him and I talked about our mutual attraction. He admitted that he'd love to pursue a relationship, but at this stage in our lives, it was wrong. We kissed and cried, then I only ever saw him in passing after that.

My teenage heart was broken, but in retrospect he did the right thing. I've met so many women who had encounters/relationships with older men when they were in their teens. At the time, the men would tell them they were special and mature for their age. As teenagers they ate that up, but when they think back on those relationships, they cringe. Attraction can exist between teens and adults, but the adult should know better and maintain respectful boundaries.

[justodd]

Once upon a time, I had a friend I’ll call P. P was in his mid thirties when we met, and only went after younger women. Always legal, but also always a good decade plus younger. When asked why he wouldn’t pursue women his age, he at least had the self awareness to admit it was because he was immature, but didn’t have quite enough to understand that wasn’t really a selling point with younger women, either. A few years down the road, I was very surprised when he announced that he was getting married. I was even more surprised when I found out that, at nineteen, his bride was exactly half his age. It became obvious VERY quickly that this was not exactly a relationship on solid ground, and when it came out just before the wedding that they were expecting, I found myself even more dubious that it could work. I’ll spare you the gory details, but let’s just say that it was a disaster of a (thankfully short-lived) marriage and even though P loves his daughter very much, neither he nor his ex has really been able to be the kind of parent she deserved. 

A few years later, when we were once again living in the same city, P and I had some heart to heart talks about how things happened with his ex, and I went down the rabbit hole of her old livejournal. It also became clear (from reading her words, not from anything he said) that she’d been the one to do the pursuing. This was not up for debate or interpretation, it was just straight up blatant. What was also clear was that he was just one in a long line of “fiancés” she’s had over the last couple of years, going back to a boyfriend who moved in with her family while she was still in high school. I’ve never met her, but just from what she was putting out for public viewing, it was very clear that she was a very sad girl who desperately wanted True Love, and latched on to anyone who seemed like even a remote possibility. P, being an insecure guy who was easily taken with the fantasy of the younger girl who could see value in him, was easy pickings.

THAT SAID - if you don’t think I read him the riot act for ignoring the obvious signs when she first expressed interest, and doubled down on the scolding when he told me that he’d suspected she was lying about her birth control when he got her pregnant, you’ve got a few hundred other thoughts coming. Sure, she was legally an adult, but even then, the miles between them in terms of life experience, and her well known history of short lived relationships resulting in quick engagements (he was at least her third fiancé) should have been enough to give him pause, and no matter how hard up he was (and to be frank, P was not a guy who got a lot of opportunities with the ladies), he had the option of saying no or insisting on a condom when he suspected she was trying to get pregnant on purpose. She was a teenager. He was an adult of almost forty. No matter who made the first move, or how hard she pursued, he should have known, and done, better. 

Again - this was MY FRIEND, and a very good one, at that. It boggles my mind that, while I was able to look him in the eye and say “you know I love you, but no matter what she did, you still fucked up, and you need to exercise better judgment in the future,” we have peope here practically doing backflips to absolve grown ass men who should have fucking known better. The mental gymnastics are truly astonishing. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

By the time I finished reading this thread last night I wasn’t in a fit state to reply.  I just have a few minutes but I wanted to say a couple  things.

As disgusted as I am by the comments of a few posters who despite being grown women still do not understand the concept of consent I am so proud to be in the  company of those of you who pushed back with passionate and articulate posts.

Im on the fly at work so can’t take the time to scroll back and name everyone but from @singsingsing who came out hard and fast the defense of victims in post after post made me want to buy all of you round after round of drinks in appreciation for how hard you rock.

rape culture is a thing.  Sadly apparent by people who choose to post here, for whatever reason...we know it’s a thibg.

but pushing back against it.  Letting it be known in no uncertain terms that it’s vile, not acceptable amongst decent people, and won’t be tolerated.  That’s also a thibg.  

My heart breaks for any girl in the lives of those women who needed help and would have been met with rape apologists.  My heart breaks that THIS is why it’s still not always safe to tell despite what we want to believe.  

But the push back...we’re moving the line forward.  Maybe someday people will look back at the times when it wasn’t safe to report with the incredulity it deserves.

for those excusing it ...every postbhere tells people a little somethjbg abou who we are and you showed a lack of empathy and ugliness that should be taken into account every time you opine about anything regarding people, relationships, parenting, justice, or consent.  You’ve shown who you are. 

As fo the rest of you - I love you guys.

 

[AliceInFundyland]

I didn’t want to say anything else either and this has little to do with Caleb Williams. But here we go

Traditional Rape Sense? Uh, no. I liked @Rachel333 chart about cultural barriers to reporting rape. 

I had a male FWB. He later took up with a new female. Then he decided he didn’t care for her. One night they drunkenly left the bar together. He told her she could sleep there. In the morning he discovered she had sex with him.

He had made it clear he didn’t want to do that. ....He gets drunk and is dumb. And, well, I know what could have happened in the middle of the night. But he blacks out and has no clue. 

HOWEVER if the genders were reversed I’d say rape. So indeed, there you go. Nonconsent is nonconsent. Even when people are fucking stupid and lines are blurry and everything. There is no TRADITIONAL rape culture.

He ended up yelling at her in the middle of the bar and accusing her of rape and then calling the police. It did not go very far. 

(I am no longer friends with this guy and he has a lot of “stuff.” But on that one point I stuck up for him.)

.......ETA.....

I don’t like sharing this because I really hate this guy. He screwed me over. Several times. When I was really vulnerable, And that’s sort of the point. Unless he’s upped his moral and ethical game in the past two years, he isn’t a great person. But as that situation played out - it was what it was. He was right.

[HurricaneBells]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

For those excusing it ...every postbhere tells people a little somethjbg abou who we are and you showed a lack of empathy and ugliness that should be taken into account every time you opine about anything regarding people, relationships, parenting, justice, or consent.  You’ve shown who you are. 

As fo the rest of you - I love you guys.

 

You've shown who you are.... I love this. Just wanted to say it goes both ways and all those who stood up and said this is not ok, showed who they are too. Good solid decent people from all around the world who did not let any of that go unchallenged. Luckily (or unluckily depending who you are) as many of you are fond of saying "the internet is forever"!