Caleb Williams

[HermioneSparrow]

Rape apologists, really? This is disgusting in so many levels. Not surprised about a poster who has said offensive things about inmigrants and the separation of children in the border... and so many other gross comments.

[SapphireSlytherin]

Ummm. I'm not defending a rapist. I'm offering MY OPINION that this teenager was gung-ho for this relationship, and that -- for whatever reason, years later -- she has had a change of heart (or, as mentioned above - her parents may have found out and decided to press charges).

I grew up in an area where early sexual activity was the norm, and a wide gap in age wasn't uncommon. 

IF this was consensual, and she (or her parents) have now decided it wasn't, that's a problem. ASSuming he's guilty (when he's only been indicted, not tried/convicted) is just as much a problem ASSuming she's telling the whole story.

I have a huge problem with people simply 100% believing what a person says (the stats are out there, searchable, that say 2%-10% of these claims are lies), just because she's female and accusing a male of inappropriate actions. While that means 90%-98% of their accusations are true, it also means that for the 2% - 10% of men simply and falsely accused (not yet tried and convicted/exonerated) of this behavior have their lives ruined forever. 

Edit:  If he is convicted of these charges (or confesses), he deserves nothing less than to be castrated and banned from society.

[singsingsing]

Oh, I'm sorry, it's even worse. It's under 17, not 18. So the best case scenario is that he was fingering a 16-year-old girl when he was 23!* And if this is the same girl, she was still under 17 in August 2016, which means she couldn't have been more than 15 when he was inserting his finger in her vagina. Now I'm not totally sure how the law works, but if she had to have still been under 17 for the charge to apply at the end of the stated period, that would mean she was 13 or 14 when the abuse began. And he was in his 20s.

Still interested in defending this sack of shit?

I'm fucking livid. The Duggar daughters get shit on here for literally everything they do, including things they can't control. They get criticized, mocked and shamed for their clothes, their hair, the way they speak, the way they smile, what they eat, what their houses look like. And along comes this random turd who's associated with them, charged with the sexual abuse of a minor, and people eagerly jump to his defence and start victim blaming. What the hell?

*I read somewhere that he's currently 26, but now I can't find it. Regardless, he sexually abused a minor when he was an adult.

[CarrotCake]

Who is victim blaming?

I also never said that I think he is innocent, I just don't think that he necessarily is a sexual predator. Whether or not you agree, 15-year-olds have consensual sex with 23-year-olds and to me that is on a completely different level than a 10-year-old and a 30-year-old. 

So yes, he did something illegal and should be charged for it (if guilty), but I don't think he should be hunted down BEFORE we know more details. I also remember the case @Marly is talking about which makes me cautious to jump to conclusions.

[AnnaRuk09]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

*I read somewhere that he's currently 26, but now I can't find it. Regardless, he sexually abused a minor when he was an adult.

I saw that too, but whichever tabloid stated that is incorrect. The legal document that’s available states that he’s 23.

It’s also insane that his brother Josh, who sang at Joe&Kendras wedding and has been pictured many times with the Duggar littles, also was charged for the same type of crime. These people are so sick. I read somewhere that an anonymous person came forward to add to this report and said they wanted to expose them because they had been deceiving the public, blaming people and even went as far as changing the last name. Josh who is an artist goes by Josh Wilson rather than Williams. Now we know why. 

*Edited to add: Interesting how Josh has now wiped most of his fb. Are there also any mugshots of these predators?

[singsingsing]

2 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

Who is victim blaming?

I also never said that I think he is innocent, I just don't think that he necessarily is a sexual predator. Whether or not you agree, 15-year-olds have consensual sex with 23-year-olds and to me that is on a completely different level than a 10-year-old and a 30-year-old. 

So yes, he did something illegal and should be charged for it (if guilty), but I don't think he should be hunted down BEFORE we know more details. I also remember the case @Marly is talking about which makes me cautious to jump to conclusions.

Nobody was suggesting ‘hunting him down.’ Stop trying to make excuses. Just stop. 

[singsingsing]

14 minutes ago, AnnaRuk09 said:

I saw that too, but whichever tabloid stated that is incorrect. The legal document that’s available states that he’s 23.

It’s also insane that his brother Josh, who sang at Joe&Kendras wedding and has been pictured many times with the Duggar littles, also was charged for the same type of crime. These people are so sick. I read somewhere that an anonymous person came forward to add to this report and said they wanted to expose them because they had been deceiving the public, blaming people and even went as far as changing the last name. Josh who is an artist goes by Josh Wilson rather than Williams. Now we know why. 

I’m glad I didn’t imagine it! So if she was at least five years younger than him at the time, she couldn’t have been more than 15 when it started. If she was STILL under 17 this year, she would have been about 13. Would anyone still like to attempt to defend this man? Note that those of you who decided to make excuses for him didn’t go the ‘he might be innocent’ route, so don’t try that. You were suggesting it was okay for an adult man to have sex with a minor. That maybe this was consensual and now she’s angry and trying to get back at him. Don’t bother responding, actually. Nobody needs to hear more of that.

[RosyDaisy]

Rape apologists, really? This is disgusting in so many levels. Not surprised about a poster who has said offensive things about inmigrants and the separation of children in the border... and so many other gross comments.

Yes, really. That's exactly what's going on here. This dude in his 20s sexually assaulted a young teenage girl, and people are trying to explain it away as something much less serious. That is beyond disgusting.

By the way, I have never, ever said anything offensive about the separation of immigrant children from their parents. My opinion on that has always been that it is cruel and evil.

[MargaretElliott]

Is it possible that Caleb had a consensual relationship with a minor, and she's just pressing charges because she feels guilty/she wants to get back at him for leaving her/she's a frigid bitch? Of course it's possible, but I don't think it's likely- at all.

Come on, what do you think is more likely: A man in a patriarchal church, raised to think he has authority over women simply because he is a man taking advantage of a minor... OR a young girl baring her shame and risking her reputation, enduring being called a liar, a slut, and a whore, being disbelieved and ridiculed by her community, those she loves and respects no longer respecting her, just to.... get back at a guy?

There's a reason most sex abuse victims don't come forward, and that's because people will look at them and say "I don't believe you, you were asking for it, you led him on, you just want to ruin his life," after they just experienced trauma and abuse. That's why a lot of them will just pretend it didn't happen and hope it goes away - because they know no one will believe them if they tell the truth. But come on, even if it was a secular party girl, that doesn't necessarily change anything- America is still super fucked up with it's attitude towards sex as a whole, and she'd still most likely experience shame and victim-blaming. If she was a Christian girl who ran with more conservative circles, it would just be worse. This, combined with the fact that he's associated with the Duggar's CLEARLY patriarchal, victim-blaming, woman-shaming church, where women are responsible for men's sexuality and resulting actions, makes it clear to me which story I think is more likely.

If you don't believe sex abuse victims, you are part of the problem.

/endrant

[Casserole]

3 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

My opinion is also likely unpopular here, but I wouldn’t necessarily put statutory rape, especially when the adult is a young adult,  in the category of predatory. 

NO. Statutory rape is a thing for a reason. It is illegal for a reason. I wish I could go back in time and protect 16/17 year old Casserole from the predatory 20/21/22 year olds that found their way into my life.* At 16, I thought all was good and I would never call it rape. Looking back as a 28 year old, it was absolutely, positively, beyond a reasonable doubt rape. Yeah, I "consented" but I did not have the brain capacity to truly consent because literally my brain was not fully matured yet. Children cannot consent. Period. Ever. Full stop. 

 

*Yes, I know I could go after them now as statue of limitations does not exist in NJ. I have a good therapist and I don't want to go through the trauma of the court system. I am at peace with where I am now. But I will fight to the death to protect kids, especially vulnerable females, from this shit ever happening to them. 

[SamiKatz]

People assuming, or opining that it "may be" as the result of a ongoing relationship between the perpetrator and the victim are part of the problem with girls, boys, women and men not reporting sexual assault.  Why would that be your first thought on this?  It's a form of victim blaming in my opinion.

 

 

[JenniferJuniper]

1 hour ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Ummm. I'm not defending a rapist. I'm offering MY OPINION that this teenager was gung-ho for this relationship, and that -- for whatever reason, years later -- she has had a change of heart (or, as mentioned above - her parents may have found out and decided to press charges).

While he is totally innocent until proven guilty, a grand jury brought a true bill against him and the state brought charges.  It appears he was on the lam for a couple of months because he was not arrested until two months later.

Your opinion that the 14 - 16 year alleged victim wasn't actually raped is based on ....nothing.  Not a thing.

[Pete Pickles]

I don’t want to be accused of victim blaming but I want to give some benefit of the doubt NOT to this scumbag (because he is definitely that), but to our fellow FJ posters.

This place is full of open-minded people, which is lovely. Whenever ANY accusations come up about ANYONE, there are always people who hold off judgment and encourage others to do the same. 

If this piece of trash had been accused of stealing, charged and arrested but not yet tried, and we read a detailed report about an abandoned ATV in his neighborhood that was later found in his garage, I truly believe there would be at least a few of us suggesting he didn’t intend to steal, but he had seen it abandoned for days or weeks and took a “finders keepers” approach. 

I by no means intend to equate theft to rape. I’m only saying I am not at all surprised that some people here would be willing to offer benefit of the doubt, especially since the notions that she did “consent” (not legally, obviously) and later changed her mind or her parents found out would not be very unlikely. Many of us know of circumstances just like this.

All that being said, I personally think he’s disgusting. Reading the report made me physically ill. The timeline and legal definitions show that regardless of the age difference, her age alone dictates this was predatory. (I’ll be right back to present the math on this. Didn’t do it before starting this post, but she couldn’t have been at the upper range of “older than 13 and younger than 18” during both offenses.)

People suggesting they may be two different victims, I don’t think so. Doesn’t the report indicate the two people have the same initials and it does not clarify that although they are presented in the same way, they aren’t the same victim? Maybe I’m wrong but that was my interpretation.

[singsingsing]

Stop. Making. Excuses. For. Predators. Stop giving the benefit of the doubt to the people making excuses. There is never such thing as consent when a man in his 20s is having sex with a 14 or 15-year-old. Full stop. 

[Pete Pickles]

Math done. At her oldest possible age during the first offense, she was 14. Youngest possibility is 13 years + 1 day. He would have been 19 or 20. He definitely knew better.

@singsingsing I agree with you almost always, but I won’t apologize for offering fellow spectators (people on FJ) some mercy for being hopeful there is a better explanation for this. None of them said he definitely didn’t do anything sinister or that she deserved to be molested or that she’s lying. I do hope seeing these numbers in black and white (and assuming my magic marker math on a legal pad is correct), they will all agree that there is no way a 19 year old man (barring intellectual incapability) would think it was okay to do this to a 14 year old, regardless of what she may or may not have said, thought, or “consented,”  to. If our friends here continue to suggest it was an honest mistake now that they see these ages, they’re totally wrong.

ETA: I now see you and I are basically on the same page, @singsingsing We can’t definitively say he was in his 20s, as you presumed, but that detail is negligible. I agree though. No excuse. Even if he was only 16, he has to know a 13 or 14 year old isn’t interested in having sex with him. She’s a child. I think some people are still assuming she may have been 16 or 17 and he 20, in which case, it CAN BE foggy IF she consented.

[singsingsing]

2 minutes ago, Pete Pickles said:

 

@singsingsing I agree with you almost always, but I won’t apologize for offering fellow spectators (people on FJ) some mercy for being hopeful there is a better explanation for this. None of them said he definitely didn’t do anything sinister or that she deserved to be molested or that she’s lying. 

Unfortunately that’s not the case. Go back and read the responses again. And I’ll reiterate, and keep reiterating as long as people continue to suggest that what he did may not have actually been that bad: a 15-year-old girl (generously assuming that she was 15) cannot consent to sex with an adult man. There is no ‘better explanation’ possible here beyond the fact that he might not be guilty, which is not what people were suggesting. They were suggesting that an adult man having sex with a young teenager isn’t that bad and that she may be acting as a ‘scorned lover’ now and out to get him. BULLSHIT.

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

I’m glad I didn’t imagine it! So if she was at least five years younger than him at the time, she couldn’t have been more than 15 when it started. If she was STILL under 17 this year, she would have been about 13. Would anyone still like to attempt to defend this man? Note that those of you who decided to make excuses for him didn’t go the ‘he might be innocent’ route, so don’t try that. You were suggesting it was okay for an adult man to have sex with a minor. That maybe this was consensual and now she’s angry and trying to get back at him. Don’t bother responding, actually. Nobody needs to hear more of that.

I’ll defend it. An age gap of 5 or 6 years isn’t remotely unusual in my world. And starting to have sex young, with a guy who is 5 or 6 years older isn’t unusual either. I certainly understood the concept of consent at 14. 

[Palimpsest]

35 minutes ago, Pete Pickles said:

I don’t want to be accused of victim blaming but I want to give some benefit of the doubt NOT to this scumbag (because he is definitely that), but to our fellow FJ posters.

Everyone is entitled to express an opinion (within the rules) on Free Jinger.  And everyone is allowed to disagree with any opinions expressed here.

But 

8 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

I know my opinion will probably be very unpopular  <snip> ...

I know most people disagree

and

5 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

My opinion is also likely unpopular here, 

and

4 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

MY unpopular opinion

If you already know the vast majority of other Free Jinger members disagree with you then you have to take your lumps when they do disagree!

And there is a fine line between expressing an unpopular opinion and baiting other posters.  Especially over something as sensitive as the sexual abuse of minors.

35 minutes ago, Pete Pickles said:

I’m only saying I am not at all surprised that some people here would be willing to offer benefit of the doubt, especially since the notions that she did “consent” (not legally, obviously) and later changed her mind or her parents found out would not be very unlikely. Many of us know of circumstances just like this.

Or have read about them in the paper.  Or had their father's aunt's best friend's cousin's friend was wrongly accused of rape when it was consensual ...  

Many of us believe strongly that while circumstances like this *may* happen they are in the vast minority.  Immediately looking for excuses for predatory behaviour and statutory rape will be called out here. 

Every single time.

At Free Jinger we historically support victims and call out abusers.  That is not going to change. 

 

 

 

[singsingsing]

4 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

I’ll defend it. An age gap of 5 or 6 years isn’t remotely unusual in my world. And starting to have sex young, with a guy who is 5 or 6 years older isn’t unusual either. I certainly understood the concept of consent at 14. 

I don’t give a shit if its normal in your world. Lots of terrible things are normal in lots of places. In some places it’s normal to beat your wife, or for rape victims to be stoned to death. An adult man having sex with a young teen is NEVER OKAY. It’s sick, wrong, and illegal for good reason, and fuck you for trying to normalize it. Seriously, on behalf of victims of statutory rape and sexual abuse, fuck you.

[Mama Mia]

6 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Everyone is entitled to express an opinion (within the rules) on Free Jinger.  And everyone is allowed to disagree with any opinions expressed here.

But 

and

and

If you already know the vast majority of other Free Jinger members disagree with you then you have to take your lumps when they do disagree!

And there is a fine line between expressing an unpopular opinion and baiting other posters.  Especially over something as sensitive as the sexual abuse of minors.

Or have read about them in the paper.  Or had their father's aunt's best friend's cousin's friend was wrongly accused of rape when it was consensual ...  

Many of us believe strongly that while circumstances like this *may* happen they are in the vast minority.  Immediately looking for excuses for predatory behaviour and statutory rape will be called out here. 

Every single time.

At Free Jinger we historically support victims and call out abusers.  That is not going to change. 

 

 

 

Did I in any way, shape or form say I objected to being called out or “taking my lumps”  for my opinion? No. I did not. It’s a discussion forum, last time I checked. If you want just sheep, say so. 

[singsingsing]

I’m at work right now and I can’t keep responding to the rape apologists in this thread. Thank you to the others chiming in. I don’t think I’ve ever been more disgusted by things I’ve seen posted here. 

I have had to read so many police reports of young teenage victims who “consented” to their abuse. It’s appalling. The fact that people would try to justify it in any way is utterly disgusting. I’m sure there are people here who were having sex with adult men at the age of 14 or 15 and don’t want to view themselves as victims. That’s fine - you can decide that for yourself. But you absolutely do not get to decide that for anyone else.

[Mama Mia]

10 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I don’t give a shit if its normal in your world. Lots of terrible things are normal in lots of places. In some places it’s normal to beat your wife, or for rape victims to be stoned to death. An adult man having sex with a young teen is NEVER OKAY. It’s sick, wrong, and illegal for good reason, and fuck you for trying to normalize it. Seriously, on behalf of victims of statutory rape and sexual abuse, fuck you.

You know what, I get to name and react to MY experiences, how I want. Just as you do. I have also been a victim of rape. I have also been consensually involved with older men when I was underage. In MY experience they are NOT the same thing. At all. Consensual and non-consensual are different things. Don’t take away my agency. Don’t minimize my rape by making it equivalent to hooking up with an older guy,  So fuck you too. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

4 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I disagree. I know many 14-year-olds who have been fingered by older guys. 

MY unpopular opinion:  this girl was "all in" for the relationship for a couple of years, got dumped, never got over him (may still love him - and Im not putting love in quotes because to a 14/15/16-year-old, it really is love), but due to the #metoo movement may have developed a different perspective. 

I knew a couple of girls who said they were as well at that age, they were the school sluts, turns out they had been sexually abused by several adult males in the family (the girls were all cousins) for years,  I found this out about 20 years after we graduated from high school. So sure a young girl might think it's fun to be  dating and "doing" an older guy, but I'd be worried she's got other issues that are causing them to act so inappropriately.  

[Pete Pickles]

I totally understand and respect what you’re saying, @Palimpsest. I want to reiterate I did not for a moment think or imply this was anything other than terrible and abusive. I believe it is exactly that.

On the flip side, I was a victim of foggy rape. What’s that, you ask? He was older (old enough to be having sex). I was younger but not by a whole lot. I gave all the signs that I liked him (and I did). I told him “no” but I didn’t fight him off me. I was not drugged. He was sober too. I knew I didn’t feel right after it happened but I didn’t know it was rape. I spent months questioning whether or not I really told him no. After I accepted that I DID say no, I still wondered if I didn’t really want it deep down or if I didn’t communicate “no” well enough. (Those wondering, “NO” is enough.) My point is that it isn’t always black and white and it isn’t always a distant relative’s friend or something you read about. It happens and it draws out the grieving process quite a lot. Let’s talk about victim blaming when you yourself are both the victim AND the one doing the blaming. It’s a shitty place to be. And then to find out people think it’s so rare it couldn’t have happened to anyone who would know first or second hand.

[Buzzard]

I will either clear things up with this post or make people want to puke.  I'm not sure how this will go, but this is the law in Illinois (disclaimer - I am not an illinois attorney):

Illinois does not have "rape."  They have "Criminal Sexual Assault."  The definition is in two parts, Criminal Sexual Assault and Aggravated Criminal Sexual Assault.  Agg is relevant here because thats how he's charged in the indictment, you must meet the factors in criminal sexual assault to sustain agg sexual assault:

Quote

 

720 ILCS 5/11-1.30 Aggravated criminal sexual assault

(a) A person commits aggravated criminal sexual assault if that person commits criminal sexual assault and any of the following aggravating circumstances exist during the commission of the offense or, for purposes of paragraph (7), occur as part of the same course of conduct as the commission of the offense:

(1) the person displays, threatens to use, or uses a dangerous weapon, other than a firearm, or any other object fashioned or used in a manner that leads the victim, under the circumstances, reasonably to believe that the object is a dangerous weapon;

(2) the person causes bodily harm to the victim, except as provided in paragraph (10);

(3) the person acts in a manner that threatens or endangers the life of the victim or any other person;

(4) the person commits the criminal sexual assault during the course of committing or attempting to commit any other felony;

(5) the victim is 60 years of age or older;

(6) the victim is a person with a physical disability;

(7) the person delivers (by injection, inhalation, ingestion, transfer of possession, or any other means) any controlled substance to the victim without the victim’s consent or by threat or deception for other than medical purposes;

(8) the person is armed with a firearm;

(9) the person personally discharges a firearm during the commission of the offense; or

(10) the person personally discharges a firearm during the commission of the offense, and that discharge proximately causes great bodily harm, permanent disability, permanent disfigurement, or death to another person.

(b) A person commits aggravated criminal sexual assault if that person is under 17 years of age and:

(i) commits an act of sexual penetration with a victim who is under 9 years of age; or

(ii) commits an act of sexual penetration with a victim who is at least 9 years of age but under 13 years of age and the person uses force or threat of force to commit the act.

(c) A person commits aggravated criminal sexual assault if that person commits an act of sexual penetration with a victim who is a person with a severe or profound intellectual disability.

 

Criminal Sexual Assault is:

Quote

(a) A person commits criminal sexual assault if that person commits an act of sexual penetration and:

(1) uses force or threat of force;

(2) knows that the victim is unable to understand the nature of the act or is unable to give knowing consent;

(3) is a family member of the victim, and the victim is under 18 years of age; or

(4) is 17 years of age or over and holds a position of trust, authority, or supervision in relation to the victim, and the victim is at least 13 years of age but under 18 years of age.

720 ILCS 5/11-1.20

 

The key difference between Agg Crim Sexual Assault and Crim Sexual Assault are the force factors.  The fact that they charged it this way tells us:

1 - The victim is someone he held "a position of trust, authority, or supervision" over or is a family member (family member is unlikely based on the word choice mirroring the statute) and

2 - consent is unlikely based on the charging of the aggravating charge.  One of the "aggravating circumstances" must be present or they would have charged just Crim sexual assault.

This charge, if convicted, WILL result in prison time.  Probation is not an option.