Caleb Williams

[apandaaries]

Really recommend The Tale.

Trigger warning: a movie with depictions of IRL sexual abuse and assault, so the content below reflects that.

 

 

 

Based on a true story! It's created by someone who was groomed by sexual predators when she was 13, culminating in an ongoing sexual relationship. She told herself it was consensual for decades. In her 40s, her mother called her, concerned about a story she'd found while cleaning. The filmmaker had written it at a young age, but it was far too advanced about sexually explicit material.

The movie is graphic, but very well done.

She digs into the past and reevaluates a lot of what she'd told herself.  Since she was a documentarian, she made her story into a very disturbing but amazing film. 

Some of the films could be quite triggering to some sexual abuse survivors. They are difficult to watch, but the director had particular reasons for such scenes.  They also took a lot of steps, it seems, to make the young actor's part as asexual as possible with the sex scenes.  She was filmed separately, standing upright, with her hair done, getting asexual directions such as, "imagine a bee just stung you." They had a body double for the rest. But still, onscreen, it's jarring. Be forewarned.

https://www.marieclaire.com/culture/a20882243/the-tale-hbo-jennifer-fox-interview/

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale

[LilMissMetaphor]

No matter what the topic is, so many threads on FJ seem to just degenerate into John Bender having the imaginary conversation with his father... 

No, Dad, what about you?

Fuck you.

No, Dad, what about you?

Fuck you.

Dad, what about you?

Fuck you!

[VelociRapture]

@Iamthewayraises a good point about different age of consent standards between countries. For those of you who aren’t in the US, please know that the age of consent varies by state here. Caleb was charged in the state of Illinois and I believe the age of consent there is 17. So when discussing the specific case against Caleb you need to apply the standards of the state where he is being charged rather than the standards of the country you live in. 

[Rachel333]

Whew. I've been taking a break from FJ but I saw this reported elsewhere and it made me curious to see what FJ was saying.

I wish I could say I'm surprised by some of these comments but I'm not. These themes have come up before and it isn't the first time I've seen people here defend adult men pursuing young teenagers (often with the "he's immature and she's mature for her age" excuse) or jump right to assuming that a man accused of sexual assault is innocent and the purported victim must be the one in the wrong. It's a really big problem in our culture in general and so it's not a surprise that it would be an issue here as well.

Here's a chart that I thought was interesting about barriers to reporting rape around the world. Some countries are definitely much better than others but there isn't a single country that falls into the "virtually no barriers to reporting rape" category.

Spoiler

 

8 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I don’t give a shit if its normal in your world. Lots of terrible things are normal in lots of places. In some places it’s normal to beat your wife, or for rape victims to be stoned to death. An adult man having sex with a young teen is NEVER OKAY. It’s sick, wrong, and illegal for good reason, and fuck you for trying to normalize it. Seriously, on behalf of victims of statutory rape and sexual abuse, fuck you.

Amen. This is one issue where I really don't care if it's normal or not, I still think it's wrong for adult men to pursue young women. The fact that it might be culturally normal, either now or historically, doesn't change my opinion.

[Glasgowghirl]

In the UK the age of consent is 16 but it's illegal for teachers to date any student even over the age of 16. 

When someone under 16 is reported to be having sex with someone over 16 but under 19/20, usually in teen pregnancy cases, the police and social services will investigate and decide if prosecution is in the best interests or not. Anyone aged 20 or over should not be with a 14 or 15 year old, no matter how mature for their age they are.

 

[Shadoewolf]

My ex BIL met his wife when she was 15, he was 22. She was dog sitting for us when he happened to drop by, not realizing we weren't back yet. They hit it off and very shortly after she got pregnant. She knew EXACTLY what she was doing. Her parents knew they were having sex and didn't care. UNTIL she got pregnant. Then suddenly the threat was made he better marry her or they were pressing charges for rape. Her parents had no hesitation signing the papers allowing her to get married under 18 because it meant they didn't have to deal with her anymore. The whole thing was VERY WRONG. That said, they've been together almost 18 years.  Now this isn't most situations but things aren't always as cut and dry as they seem. 

[ViolaSebastian]

4 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

She knew EXACTLY what she was doing. 

She was 15.

[AliceInFundyland]

@Shadoewolf Are you saying that the 15 year old manipulated the 22 year old into impregnating her....to get out of the house?  And miraculously they have 18 years of wedded bliss?

Are you seriously using this example to play devil’s advocate?

Why? Why are you needing to argue this?

[Lisafer]

3 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

My ex BIL met his wife when she was 15, he was 22. She was dog sitting for us when he happened to drop by, not realizing we weren't back yet. They hit it off and very shortly after she got pregnant. She knew EXACTLY what she was doing. 

No. Assuming this occurred in the U.S., it was statutory rape. She was a CHILD. 

I've never seen anything offensive from you before, but please. Don't blame a 15-year-old for a 22-year-old's crime.

[Beermeet]

1 hour ago, Carm_88 said:

Mature at 14 still makes her 14 and being 14 makes it illegal. That is it. There is no need to talk about if she is mature for her age or not. It does not matter, it is illegal and that is that. Mature at 14 should still be way too young for a man in his late teens/early 20s.

Telling kids that they are mature for their age is part of the overall problem.  Kids like to please, tell them things like "you're bad" or " you're so mature" and they will try to live up to it.  I did. Thankfully not with a much older guy but stayed in a relationship longer than I wanted to because " you guys are so cute together, you'll land up getting married!".  At 17, that seemed so romantic and I thought I should be that girl.  

This Caleb thing is also nothing like my life experience.  In their circles, simply having a vagina at any age gives a major decrease in power play. I also highly doubt this was in anyway a known romantic relationship so, don't even think about it.  He preyed on her and she is incredibly brave to come forward especially considering they are hard core fundies.  I hope she came forward with the love and support of her parents.  Poor little thing. I'd like to beat Caleb back into last week personally.  You wanna fuck with females, pervert?  Come at me bro. What a creep.  All these so called young men in fundiedom deserve jail. Fuck this cult, fuck creepy men and the women who won't do right by the victims.  What kind of parents let these known predators anywhere near their children? WTAF?  It's a creepy sex cult. 

[SilverBeach]

Sad thread. I'm not usually at a loss for words, but I just can't with this topic. Thanks to those of you standing up for what is right.

[Rachel333]

Regarding grey areas, if you say "no," it doesn't matter if you fought back or not, there's no grey area there in my book.

With actual grey areas, I see people get mad at women for talking about traumatic experiences that fall into those grey areas because "how could the men have known?" but I wish there was more acknowledgement that just because the man really might not have known anything was wrong doesn't mean the experience can't still be traumatic for the woman.

That said, I don't think that applies at all to what Caleb Williams did, because his crime is a clear case of assault. Even if the victim did think she consented (which it sounds like she did not) it's not a grey area when it's a very young teen and a man much older than her.

[Lisafer]

I think I'm gonna put a bunch of people on ignore. After I throw up. This thread has really changed how I feel about FJ.

[AliceInFundyland]

2 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Sad thread.

 

Just now, Lisafer said:

I think I'm gonna put a bunch of people on ignore. After I throw up. This thread has really changed how I feel about FJ.

Yeah, I think what’s really unfortunate here is that the OPs aren’t going to return in defense of this bs. I believe they will duck and cover only to pop up later since they are regular posters. Ignore is probably the best route.

[SilverBeach]

4 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

I think I'm gonna put a bunch of people on ignore. After I throw up. This thread has really changed how I feel about FJ.

Ignore is a wonderful feature and has greatly enhanced my FJ experience. I used to think I had too many folks on my ignore list, but nah. I don't come here to be disturbed, upset, or offended. Think I'll be adding a few more.

[treehugger]

@Shadoewolf it is an absolute tragedy how often the victims of rape are forced to marry their rapists. I'm am so sorry that poor girl had to go through all of that ?

[Lisafer]

6 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

 

Yeah, I think what’s really unfortunate here is that the OPs aren’t going to return in defense of this bs. I believe they will duck and cover only to pop up later since they are regular posters. Ignore is probably the best route.

Yep: if I put them on ignore, I can always remember which ones are child rape apologists. That shit shouldn't be swept under the rug.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

13 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I know many 14-year-olds who have been fingered by older guys. 

Um... how does this come up in conversation? 

[Beermeet]

Just now, Lisafer said:

Yep: if I put them on ignore, I can always remember which ones are child rape apologists. That shit shouldn't be swept under the rug.

It's disgusting and so disappointing.  Grown women should be able to understand the girls plight in this situation.  No excuses.  The mere thought of defending Caleb is beyond me. To do so is to join the rape culture we are finally talking about en masse. I will focus on all the women right here who stood up against such misogyny and be aware that some women (!) will still automatically side with a predator.  It's like Stockholm syndrome or something.  Shameful and so sad. 

[Shadoewolf]

Blame? No. We (my ex husband, myself, his parents, our mutual friends) all tried keeping them apart. We told her 100x he was too old. She didn't care. Her parents didn't care. We told him 100x she was too young, he'd go to jail. Neither cared.  Yes, there was some discussion *at the time 18 years ago* of her trying to trap him to get out of her shitty home life. And yes, they're still happily married, with 3 kids total. He spent the first 8 years of their marriage in the Navy. Then he went Army and they made it through 4 Iraq/Afghanistan deployments before he got out with severe PTSD. 

I NEVER SAID IT WASN'T WRONG. IT WAS!!! But nothing anyone said or did made a difference. To EITHER of them. Believe me, we tried!!!

[JenniferJuniper]

2 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Um... how does this come up in conversation? 

I think maybe because that was one of the counts against the Duggars's Friend Caleb.

Horrifying.

[nausicaa]

24 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Sad thread. I'm not usually at a loss for words, but I just can't with this topic. Thanks to those of you standing up for what is right.

Seriously, can you believe it's this bad on a female-oriented feminist forum?

I'm so depressed right now. Did I really just read a post basically depicting a 15 year old as an all knowing Lolita temptress? What.the.actual.fuck?

[FundiePrincess]

This is all really disturbing and horrific to read. I’m truly disappointed that the severity of this offense is even being debated.

I just want to remind everyone that it’s fairly likely that this young woman will at some point see this thread. All it would take is a simple search of Caleb’s name. For those downplaying this as anything other than a sexual assault, are you really ok with her seeing you defend the man who violated her?

[AliceInFundyland]

@Shadoewolf But the language you used implied that she was entrapping him.

And I still fail to see why you even needed to bring it up? What was the point?

Again, every damn time we do this someone has one anecdote of a teen and a not teen that worked out. If that was all you were trying to do I think you may have chosen your words and timing poorly.

[nausicaa]

8 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

Blame? No. We (my ex husband, myself, his parents, our mutual friends) all tried keeping them apart. We told her 100x he was too old. She didn't care. Her parents didn't care. We told him 100x she was too young, he'd go to jail. Neither cared.  Yes, there was some discussion *at the time 18 years ago* of her trying to trap him to get out of her shitty home life. And yes, they're still happily married, with 3 kids total. 

Why didn't someone--his parents, her parents, his brother-- call the police to stop it? The age of consent in Michigan and most U.S. states in 2000 was 16. If I knew an adult was sexually assaulting someone underage, God I hope I would call the police. 

And maybe she did think she could escape a shitty home life. Kids don't think things through or fully understand the consequences of their actions, particularly when they have rough childhoods. That shows even more that she didn't "know what she was doing."

And makes it even more sad that your piece of shit ex-BIL preyed on that.