Caleb Williams

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

As disgusted as I am by the comments of a few posters who despite being grown women still do not understand the concept of consent I am so proud to be in the  company of those of you who pushed back with passionate and articulate posts.

I think the important thing here is that it was only a few.  And I am also incredibly proud to be a member of a community where so many pushed back so hard, so fast, so eloquently.  And so well.

Give yourselves a round of applause.  You represent the good thing that is Free JInger.

You are too many to mention by name, but thank you all. 

I felt sick to my stomach yesterday too.  My own perception was that it was a couple of posters who lead the victim blaming and attempted to minimalise the crime.  Perhaps they have their own issues that make them want to excuse criminals and abusers, but perhaps they were just trouble making.

That said, I do have a couple of words for the couple of our European members who implied that teenagers as young as 14 having sex is perfectly OK in their society.  And that young girls having sex with older men is also perfectly OK in their country.

I don't think they were trouble making necessarily - But No! 

Check your own country's legislation before pontificating here.  You may be surprised.  I think the first poster who implied that was from the Netherlands.

Quote

What is the Netherlands Age of Consent?

The Age of Consent in Netherlands is 16 years old. The age of consent is the minimum age at which an individual is considered legally old enough to consent to participation in sexual activity. Individuals aged 15 or younger in Netherlands are not legally able to consent to sexual activity, and such activity may result in prosecution for statutory rape or the equivalent local law.

Netherlands statutory rape law is violated when an individual has consensual sexual contact with a person under age 16 out of wedlock. Close in age exemptions, at the descretion of the prosecution, exist for minors close in age in a relationship within ""social-ethical norms""(outside of these norms could be a group sex or even an unequal relationship, meaning that the offender was not in love with the victim)

Netherlands has two territories that have their own local age of consent laws. These territories are listed in the following table:

Territory of Netherlands  Region Age Of Consent

Curacao North America 15

Sint Maarten North America 15

https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/netherlands

You can look up other European countries there too.  Including Sweden and Denmark.

This is not a North American or US issue of being squeamish about sex.  Children being sexually exploited and abused is a world wide problem.  As is blaming the victims.  Children are not capable of consent.  Early sexual activity is certainly not good for children - and is extremely dangerous for them.

Your European countries are also signatories to the UNICEF efforts to protect children from sexual abuse.

https://www.unicef.org/protection/57929_58006.html

Quote

The 2014 UNICEF study, Hidden in Plain Sight, estimates that around 120 million girls under the age of 20 (about 1 in 10) have been subjected to forced sexual intercourse or other forced sexual acts at some point of their lives. Boys also report experiences of sexual violence, but they do so to a lesser extent than girls. While more recent global estimates on sexual violence among boys are unavailable due to the lack of comparable data in most countries, girls typically report lifetime rates three times higher than boys in High Income Countries. Millions of more children are likely exploited in prostitution or pornography each year around the world, most of the times lured or forced into these situations through false promises and limited knowledge about the risks. Yet the true magnitude of sexual violence is hidden because of its sensitive and illegal nature. Most children and families do not report cases of abuse and exploitation because of stigma, fear, and lack of trust in the authorities. Social tolerance and lack of awareness also contribute to under-reporting.

We all know that teenagers have sex.  The question is - how do we protect them from having forced and non-consensual sexual experiences too early.

And how the hell do we get people to take this seriously and not blame the victims.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

@Palimpsest I admit I never checked my country's age of consent (I never had reason to) and I am profoundly ashamed to say that it is 14. It raises to 16 only if the adult is in a position of authority. I think that legislators relied on the idea that virtually all adults in a 14yo's life are in a position of authority and that most teen sex happens between teens, it is mostly consensual and it isn't considered criminal (age of consent lowers to 13 if the other partner is a minor no more than 3vyrs older), just a part of growing up that should be addressed by education and not by the criminal code.

BUT it leaves open the possibility for a perv who isn't in a position of authority in the teen life, as is specified in the code, to befriend and groom a 14yo. And it would be legal. Now excuse me while I go to throw up and then sign a petition to change the law. I am all for not criminalise teen sex, but there has to be a way to let teens experiment safely and also protect them from abusers.

[xenobia]

A few thoughts: The posters here come from different corners of the world. That also means that the legislation we are used to will be different, including age of consent. That's a good thing to keep in mind. 

Does this mean that everything that's legal is great, or even okay? Of course not. It's not illegal to be a heroin addict (at least not in Sweden where I live). That doesn't mean that I would encourage anyone to try heroin, no matter how old they are. And so on. 

No matter what the age of consent is, it should be obvious to everyone that an older man who pursues young girls is a predator. It might not always technically be a criminal offence, depending on the girls age, but it's still disgusting and wrong in every way. And there is nothing that these girls say or do that can justify the older mens actions. Nothing. Never make excuses for predators. 

 

[AliceInFundyland]

@Palimpsest We keep yelling and raising a fuss and doing what we do!

We make an impact on our members. The trolls vanish. The ones who get something out of being here over time often speak up.

And others use us to help speak out, like our friends in the Shamblin thread.

Everyone we called in this thread kept reading it. I hope they absorbed something. They are humans behind the words they type.

[Mama Mia]

On 12/19/2018 at 1:41 PM, nausicaa said:

I believe several of the defenders on here are not in a place to deal with the truth of this.

I've wanted to say this for a while now, but always felt it was overstepping. I can't shut my mouth anymore. Some of the commenters defending very young girls having sex with older men also make comments about having relationship issues for themselves and members of their families in other threads. 

Isn't there a (strong) possibility that there is a connection between a culture of such young sexual activity and issues later on? And isn't there a possibility of some virulent sexism in said culture in which very young girls are sexualized and must find value and attention through sex with much older men rather than through academic or extracurricular accomplishments?

And just because it happens in certain sub-cultures doesn't make it okay. The American South has a historical culture of racism against black people. Doesn't mean my Virginia-dwelling ass just shrugs it off and passively watches the fucking cross get lit on someone's lawn. 

I really can’t wade through and respond to all the posts, So I’m going to include my thoughts in a jumble here.

You may have some valid points. I don’t fully agree, and I think it’s more complicated than that, but having very early sexual relationships could be part of the problem with further relationship success. Because of heartbreak and impulse control and all of that. And just feeling things too intensely, or deciding at 20 something that you missed out, or a number of things. I’ve actually been thinking about that lately, separately from the issue of age gaps. 

I certainly would have been better off being focused on academics. I don’t feel that I was being groomed or desperate for attention from older guys. Frankly, dating an older guy wasn’t seen as particularly cool, or making you more mature or whatever - it was more a place and time and friend group where the guys were particularly immature- by independence standards given here. . No one I knew went away to live at college and a very large portion of the young adults still lived at home and were working at some crappy job. While maybe taking a couple community college courses. So the blending line from being 14 and working part-time after school, and being 20 wasn’t that huge. Especially as there were lots of  15- 19 year olds in-between, in the same group. They were also kind of a druggy crowd, in a very druggy era. And kinda gangish. So there were more f*ed up things impacting life goals than just sexual practices. 

I don’t think I was emotionally damaged before I became sexually active. And I definitely wasn’t sexually abused as a young child .  I became sexually active because I liked sex, and it was available. Usually with boys within a couple years, sometimes older. I know that sounds awful, but I don’t think it makes me the “school slut” ( which, fyi, I find it appalling that term - and concept- is still used ) . I find it kind of odd people make assumptions for girls motivations for sex, but no one finds it at all surprising that a teen boy is extremely interested in sex ( even if you don’t feel it’s appropriate he is having it ) 

For me, personally, in my group, the average age girls had their first sexual experience was about 14. Probably a year older for boys. In my friend group there were maybe 2 or 3 people who were over 16. The “acceptable” age difference was up to about 5 or 6 years. My group did not have a particular criteria for length of relationship. I think there is more likely cause for concern over a young person’s emotional state , and possible previous abuse, if they act significantly out of the norm for their group.  

As far as difficulties in relationships, sure early sexual relationships could be part, but as far as modeling - there just weren’t many long term only marriages   to see. It’s unfortunate, in many, many, many ways - although on the plus side, most of the women I know have not unduly suffered under the notion that they can’t be independent, or have to have a man to survive or take care of shit.  

I was in a situation in my early twenties, where I worked with troubled youth. Some got crushes. Even if I had been single, or remotely interested, I would never have acted, because of the extremely clear power differential. I also had been married, had children, had worked my way through community college and university, and had lived independently since 18.  And these were guys who were 17 and 18. Some posters made me recall that. That there are very big differences in the way different ages present and their life experiences. And differences in how sheltered / vulnerable teens are. And, thinking of it, if it is someone who is a teen now, they are likely extremely sheltered. 

Anyway, I was pretty shocked at the sheer vehemence in people’s reactions. To me, statutory rape has always fallen into the category more of say, underage drinking. But clearly many people see it very differently. 

Also, I would like to add I am only talking about situations of statutory rape- as in it’s illegal solely due to age.  Not any other sort of sexual abuse or manipulation or rape or on-line predators or saying no and not being heard. 

I’m sorry my opinion triggered such a response, I have other events in my life that make me go into a blind rage, that’s people’s comments can bring up. 

 

[Palimpsest]

27 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

@Palimpsest I admit I never checked my country's age of consent (I never had reason to) and I am profoundly ashamed to say that it is 14. It raises to 16 only if the adult is in a position of authority. I think that legislators relied on the idea that virtually all adults in a 14yo's life are in a position of authority and that most teen sex happens between teens, it is mostly consensual and it isn't considered criminal (age of consent lowers to 13 if the other partner is a minor no more than 3vyrs older), just a part of growing up that should be addressed by education and not by the criminal code.

BUT it leaves open the possibility for a perv who isn't in a position of authority in the teen life, as is specified in the code, to befriend and groom a 14yo. And it would be legal. Now excuse me while I go to throw up and then sign a petition to change the law. I am all for not criminalise teen sex, but there has to be a way to let teens experiment safely and also protect them from abusers.

Aw, don't feel bad.  Individual nation state's laws lag far behind common sense, medical knowledge, and all neurological advances.

It is rather ironic, in the true sense of the word, that the UN, WHO, UNICEF, and so on try so hard to push this common sense, and scientifically proven agenda to fight against sexual violence against children. 

And nation states sign off on it without looking into their own back yards and reforming their own laws.

I don't want to criminalise teen experimental sex either.  I do want to stop people from using that excuse to legitimise sexual abuse.

[AliceInFundyland]

Thank you @Mama Mia You do have a right to feel as you do about your own experience. I appreciate that you came back to respond. And that you appear to have noted the sensitive nature of the topic and word choices.

That is appreciated.

I hope you continue to think about the broad nature of ‘rape’ in the future.

[SamuraiKatz]

Is there no one in the Duggar clan who possesses a talent for sussing out the ick factor people?

[Carm_88]

2 minutes ago, SamuraiKatz said:

Is there no one in the Duggar clan who possesses a talent for sussing out the ick factor people?
 

With Josh as part of the family? Probably not. They have to ignore their instincts all the time. 

[Beermeet]

51 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

With Josh as part of the family? Probably not. They have to ignore their instincts all the time. 

I think in their messed up culture,  they don't.  The clear line is everything from kissing to sex only after marriage.  Anything else seems confusing to me. Men can't help but touch a 5 year old with no leggings.  Can you even imagine growing up like that? I know some of you can but, I cannot.  

Also, the #metoo movement is like any other. BLM raised awareness but how far did that really go? Cultural norm shifts take a very long time, too long imo. Black people are still being murdered by police.  Women still have workplace issues. Better? Yes. Over and done? Nope. So, we push on. We push back. We film the police, we stick up for what is right when we see wrong. Over and over until it takes hold.  Never give up!  ✊?

[BachelorToTheRapture]

1 hour ago, SamuraiKatz said:

Is there no one in the Duggar clan who possesses a talent for sussing out the ick factor people?
 

In their culture it's considered wrong if two consenting unmarried adults kiss. Masturbation is wrong. Front hugs (in stricter families) are wrong. Dating someone you won't marry is wrong. Being alone with someone of the opposite sex is wrong. 

They believe anything outside of a heterosexual marriage is wrong, and dont seem to know how to draw the boundary that abuse is much more wrong than many things totally accepted by society. 

[Beermeet]

3 minutes ago, BachelorToTheRapture said:

In their culture it's considered wrong if two consenting unmarried adults kiss. Masturbation is wrong. Front hugs (in stricter families) are wrong. Dating someone you won't marry is wrong. Being alone with someone of the opposite sex is wrong. 

They believe anything outside of a heterosexual marriage is wrong, and dont seem to know how to draw the boundary that abuse is much more wrong than many things totally accepted by society. 

I truly wonder if this rampant molestation of girls is known and secretly among the men, just fine. I don't know what else to think. It's too much, seems sinister to me. They repress females too much. Again, reminds me of Hollywood creeps, protecting each other. 

[Lurker]

The Duggars are part of a cult that does not believe in consent.  A wife cannot say no to sex and must be joyfully available at all times.  The daughters are treated as property under control of their fathers and are likely pawns to be traded for influence.  Of course their judgement is warped.

They do not differentiate a minor wrong from a major crime.  A kiss in a courtship is a scandal to them, but  a brother abusing sisters is accepted and tolerated.

[AussieKrissy]

This thread has made me sad and sick all at the same time. Children can not consent.

I work with sex offenders, I have no sympathy or compassion for them. After near 18 years, I can not. I have seen to much.

The world would be a better place without them and I believe the only rehabilitation that will work for them, is a bullet between the eyes. 

controversial i know and i know i will get down voted  

[Beermeet]

13 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

This thread has made me sad and sick all at the same time. Children can not consent.

I work with sex offenders, I have no sympathy or compassion for them. After near 18 years, I can not. I have seen to much.

The world would be a better place without them and I believe the only rehabilitation that will work for them, is a bullet between the eyes. 

controversial i know and i know i will get down voted  

I'm not going to lie, I agree.  Pedophiles are of no use and don't get rehabilitated.  People get locked up for decades over personal drug use. Sex offenders get out in under a year. Says a lot about our system.  Brock Turner got a soft 3 months. It all makes me very stabby. 

[AussieKrissy]

1 minute ago, Beermeet said:

I'm not going to lie, I agree.  Pedophiles are of no use and don't get rehabilitated.  People get locked up for decades over personal drug use. Sex offenders get out in under a year. Says a lot about our system.  Brock Turner got a soft 3 months. It all makes me very stabby. 

omg pretty much something I was just saying an hour ago. 

[Johannah]

AussieKrissy, what is the work you do with sex offenders? What are the things you’ve seen that makes you feel like they can’t be rehabilitated? (I agree with you, just curious to know more)

[AussieKrissy]

3 minutes ago, Johannah said:

AussieKrissy, what is the work you do with sex offenders? What are the things you’ve seen that makes you feel like they can’t be rehabilitated? (I agree with you, just curious to know more)

I work in a gaol. I watch them come in time and time again and watch them network in gaol to commit more heinous crimes. I hear their attitudes. I have near 18 years of solid observations of these oxygen thieves. Some people don't deserve the Earth's precious resources. These people are top of my list to be shot. 

[CaricatureQualities]

I have this memory of being at summer camp when I was 13 or 14. A cabin mate of mine was 15, she was pretty and cool and tough and nice and I remember her telling us in the cabin about her boyfriend who was 20. And my 14 year old self looked at her dumbfounded and said "but 20 year olds have sex". That's all remember. Now. I knew about sex, I knew friends who were starting to become sexually active...with peers..our age. But instantly I thought of a 20 year old, an adult male who would expect sex... and it bewildered me.  I mean we were at summer camp and our counselor was 17...like all the older and cooler counselors and lifeguards were. A whole 2 years older and than us at best but when you are young tiny age gaps are tremendous  and a 17 year old is still one of the "big kids" to you and they were our gracious mentors and way to cool to date little kids. And honestly, can you imagine being 20 and telling your friends self that your girlfriend is at summer camp...as a camper.  

[Marly]

I just want to say that I never meant my post as an excuse for predatory behavior. I think it's good that we have a law here that someone under 16 cannot legally consent with someone 18+. I also never said that I think it's ok for someone in his/her early 20s to pursue (sexual) relations with someone who's 14 (or younger). And I never said I didn't believe the victim. I always believe the victim until proven otherwise. 
However, I also do/did believe that situations can be more complicated than "someone who's 18 or 19 and has sexual relations with someone 14/15 is always automatically a sexual predator". Kind of like what @Mama Mia said, I did/do believe there are groups with very immature 18, 19 year old guys, whose life and life experience isn't that much different from that of 14 year olds.
BUT, I will say that reading all the posts here has made me reconsider this. I hadn't considered the emotional immaturity of 14 year olds vs that of even 17 year olds, and I do agree now that, taking that into account, 14 year olds can't really consent to sexual relations with people who are 18+.
So, thank you for providing that perspective, and making me consider things I hadn't considered yet.

[WiseGirl]

8 hours ago, Johannah said:

AussieKrissy, what is the work you do with sex offenders? What are the things you’ve seen that makes you feel like they can’t be rehabilitated? (I agree with you, just curious to know more)

Trust me, you don't want to know details.  I have social worker friends. Bless all you social workers. 

Thank you for all who stood up and spoke out so eloquently . I just couldn't,  some topics hit too close to home to even think of an unemotional response. 

Nope, just a big nope to victim blaming. There is a reason charges were brought.

[Palimpsest]

12 hours ago, BachelorToTheRapture said:

In their culture it's considered wrong if two consenting unmarried adults kiss. Masturbation is wrong. Front hugs (in stricter families) are wrong. Dating someone you won't marry is wrong. Being alone with someone of the opposite sex is wrong. 

They believe anything outside of a heterosexual marriage is wrong, and dont seem to know how to draw the boundary that abuse is much more wrong than many things totally accepted by society. 

All of those (except for masturbation) are based on the idea that people can't control themselves sexually.  Especially men. 

If they glimpse a female knee they will salivate. If allowed a front hug they will have an automatic erection.  If left alone with someone of the opposite sex then they will be immediately tempted and be unable to control themselves because men need sex.  And it will all be the woman (or female child's) fault.  Because Eve.

Mr. P, and all non-predatory men like him, take deep offence at the thought they could not control themselves.

11 hours ago, Lurker said:

The Duggars are part of a cult that does not believe in consent.  A wife cannot say no to sex and must be joyfully available at all times.  The daughters are treated as property under control of their fathers and are likely pawns to be traded for influence.  Of course their judgement is warped.

They do not differentiate a minor wrong from a major crime.  A kiss in a courtship is a scandal to them, but  a brother abusing sisters is accepted and tolerated.

This.  They also believe that sexual predators just need to repent and God will make sure it doesn't happen again.  Guess what.  It does.  Because ...

11 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

I work with sex offenders, I have no sympathy or compassion for them. After near 18 years, I can not. I have seen to much.

The world would be a better place without them and I believe the only rehabilitation that will work for them, is a bullet between the eyes. 

controversial i know and i know i will get down voted  

Well, I usually phrase it as "the risks of re-offending are too high ever to trust a sexual offender again."  And I am against the death penalty so I'd rather they were left to rot in prison until another inmate wipes them out for me or they die.

And you are not alone.  A friend of mine burned out on trying to work with sexual offender inmates.  I can't remember his exact words, but it was along the lines of - all they do in prison is share their experiences to find better methods of doing it again without getting caught.

Also the sentencing is messed up and not consistent among countries, states, or judges.  Some offenders get a mere slap on the wrist.  And plea bargaining gets heavily reduced sentences.

It is only a few, like Toby Willis, who will die in prison.  The judge threw the book at him.  Bret Alan Smith, IIRC, will get out in 2020,  Both charged with several counts of rape and incest.

[Edhelfin]

I wondered why @SapphireSlytherin tends to downvote some anti-Duggar posts but now I know why. Some things may not be clear as black and white for some people but there is NO gray area in issues such as rape and the abuse of minors.

Also 'fingered by older guys' - really? You could have dressed up your rape apology in nicer words. A big sincere f.ck you ?from me to you and likeminded posters. 

[Lurky]

I am always devastated that whenever a Fundy is accused of sexual abuse/rape, there are FJers who trip over themselves to make up the most ludicrous scenarios about why the poor man must be innocent.  It sickens me - but especially because the defenders of Toby Willis and Alan Smith for example, who chided us for not automatically assuming the victims were liars, never came back after the convictions to apologise, or admit their stupid fictions were just that.

I can't understand the impulse to invent elaborate stories about how an unknown girl MUST be a spurned ex who read too much #MeToo, but I fervently hope that no one these FJ rape apologists know are ever assaulted, because the idea that this is how they automatically respond to criminal charges where they only know the bare bones makes me REALLY scared about what they would say to someone who came to them in distress.

 

[grandmadugger]

I saw this thread last night and was sure I was miss reading posts because I was tired. So I went to sleep. I am appalled that anyone could defend the asshole. Nothing in the criminal complaint suggested a Romeo and Juliette thing. The mere fact that the word aggravated was used should have been the first sign that this was never consensual. I don’t remember for sure but I do believe that several people who defended Caleb wanted Josh’s Head on a platter. Someone explain to me the mental hoops you have to go through to get to that place.