10 Shraders in Zambia and counting...

[formergothardite]

No, joking about how the people of Zambia are cannibals who dress in grass skirts and eat missionaries is not a poor choice of words. It reflects what is inside of John and how he views the people he is supposed to be ministering to.

I see that you can't even begin to address how casually John treats the safety of his children. I have to say that it is pretty hard to defend his treatment of his children. But it is just another reflection on what John is really like. It is easy to say children are precious, but treating children like they are precious gifts is much harder and something John hasn't demonstrated a desire to do.

Why exactly do the white American Christians need to go spend years telling the black Zambians how to lead a church? That right there is pretty insulting to the people of Zambia. Most of them are Christian, there are already lots of churches over there. But you and John don't think they are capable of figuring out how to run a church? And if they need leadership training, it would be much more cost effective and being a wiser steward of God's money to send someone who has had years of experience training people to be pastors, let him spend a brief time teaching a handful of guys to be leaders, and then leave and let them lead in the way they feel they need to lead. If they need money, well send it, but don't send anymore white Americans to tell them what to do.

And you are trying to tell me that John, who has failed over here to even support his family is supposed to be the guy to go teach these people how to be leaders? John who couldn't pay his own midwife bills? John, who doesn't have the common sense to figure out that snapping pictures while hurling down a busy highway during dangerous storms is a bad idea? That John is going to be the ideal person to teach people how to be godly leaders? I don't think so. And spending years there isn't teaching men to lead and then letting go. It is being a control freak and making sure they do it the way he wants them to do it. The Zambian people are not dumb, it shouldn't take them long to figure out how to plant churches and lead. I'm actually pretty sure they can figure out how to do that without the white Americans telling them what to do, anyway.

[formergothardite]

Hi again everyone. There is so much to respond to, but I am having a hard time with the quote thing to pin point specific responses.

Thank you for the trolling explanation. I was thinking some sort of fairy tale type troll and not the fishing kind. Makes sense to me. I wish I could post more often to not get bogged down, but, I have a family that needs to be cared for, as well as a job and fulltime college (yes it is fully accredited! :D ).

So I check in at night.

From your explanations, I can see where you might get some of those impressions although I don't think it is a true representation of John's character. But time will tell.

I think formergothardite mentioned the race stuff, I don't think that it shows racism, but possibly poor choice of words. I know what you mean though. When I did mission work to a particular religious group in western state with a big lake of salt water ;) I never mentioned "souls saved", "how many doors knocked", "number of visitors", "soul talks" etc because I don't like numbers or notches on the belt to determine success. I only mentioned interactions with specific people and asked for prayer for the needs that those people had etc. I never really liked prayer letters or mission reports because I knew that it was a game of words to compete with other "missionaries" for support. I sent them but never played to the audience, just told what was going on. I also never told of our needs very often. i will not say never, because I am sure I sent out letters in stressful time where I lacked faith and opened my mouth when I should have kept quiet and let God do what he would do.

I am curious what your (formergothardite) experiences were in the ATI junk?

We tried it (ATI) with our family for 2 years, but did not see any benefit from it and it was expensive so we stopped. We never attempted to go to a conference but did try to get to know the families (even went to the duggars house and bought a car from Josh and visited their church several times). The people were "friendly" but distant, meaning not letting you really meet them, only the outward image they have portrayed. We did all the seminars (basic was interesting, advanced was worthless, Anger was a mixture of the previous, and financial freedom had no point). I noticed that only the people who felt their lives "were changed" by seeing these were accepted. I am not saying all were this way, but it was the general impression we got. Anyway after two years of wisdom books we stopped because I saw no educational benefit or even character benefit.

I have found that I can not change myself to be more godly by working at it through taking steps and applying principles. God must do the changes in me and I have to be willing to follow.

ATI is a cult run by a perverted old man who likes to molest young girls and used by control freak parents to brainwash and guilt their children, even adult children, into being under their control. People like the Duggars are nothing but minions of Bill Gothard and I truly wish that them and Gothard would fall from grace. I wish Gothard would lose everything and be forced to pay for the therapy of all the people whose lives he has ruined with his teachings and I wish the Duggars would be exposed for the controlling, cult members that they are.

I also don't think much of IFB or fundamental conservative Christianity. They spend too much time ranting about gay marriage, feminists, evolution and being KJV only, and very little time on just treating people nice, with no judgment and letting their lives be a witness for God.

I'm currently agnostic/atheist. If the IFB God exists I would rather be in hell. The devil sounds nicer.

[thoughtful]

I was going to quote Shraderfriend to answer, but, after reading both recent posts several times, all I see is two walls of text that don't address anything about John Shrader and his irresponsibility to his own family.

But I will give it one more try.

Shraderfriend, look at the facts:

- in their lifestyle, the wife does not work to earn money, but stays with the children at all times, as their only source of care and education. So she can't really bring in any money.

- John does not work to earn money.

- they have had eight children, with one more on the way.

- their children are not being supported -- their father's choices have left them homeless for most of their lives. They were all living in a tiny pop-up camper for a long time, then in a church basement.

-when John has an opportunity to get something through the charity of others, he goes for large, expensive things that don't benefit his family -- going to Africa, a plane, a Troupie, etc.

- he is taking his family on a long trip to a place that could be dangerous, without proper planning for their medical, educational or financial needs.

I don't know about you, but I was raised in a world where adults were expected to work and earn a living, even if they didn't have children. If they had children, it was even more important. To me, that is a basic moral imperative.

I have only the deepest sympathy for people who fall on hard times through no fault of their own. But that is not what has happened here -- John has chosen not to earn a living.

Never mind the mission -- tell us why you are able to overlook John Shrader's lack of responsibility for his children.

[slickcat79]

No, joking about how the people of Zambia are cannibals who dress in grass skirts and eat missionaries is not a poor choice of words. It reflects what is inside of John and how he views the people he is supposed to be ministering to.

I see that you can't even begin to address how casually John treats the safety of his children. I have to say that it is pretty hard to defend his treatment of his children. But it is just another reflection on what John is really like. It is easy to say children are precious, but treating children like they are precious gifts is much harder and something John hasn't demonstrated a desire to do.

In his post about his first full day in the country, John comments that the day is "classic Zambia" because the wind is blowing dirt in his teeth as he smiles at passersby :? This is his opinion of the country he's chosen to live and work in.

He reminds me quite a bit of the Chanceys in their White Imperialist costumes, just so ABOVE the backwards natives. If he had lived a couple hundred years ago, I have no problem seeing him as the Benevolent Slaveowner who just wants to help and educate the poor negroes. I know this is true of all missionaries, but you have to be a special kind of arrogant to go to a country where they already have their own beliefs and cultures and tell them that they're doin' it rong. ESPECIALLY when they already believe in the same god that you do

[formergothardite]

Just the arrogance in the idea that the people in Zambia need John to come tell them how to train pastors and plant churches is astounding and show how little he thinks of the Zambian people. And really, there is no good choice of words when it comes to mocking and making fun the people you are supposed to be helping.

And I think that is one of the many, many huge problems with Christian missions. Even if the people believe in the same God and are the same denomination as they are, just because they are black and live in another country means that they need the White Americans to tell them what to do. No way they are smart enough to figure out how to train pastors and pant churches, no they need people who couldn't hack it in America to come and "teach" them. :roll: People like this might not think they are racists, but their actions show otherwise.

[ViolaSebastian]

The way I understand the work John will be doing does include more than "planting churches" but will involve working in the areas of helping with the daily needs and struggles of people.

This is just my beef with John (and, to be fair, many missionaries)--he isn't providing any basic, daily needs for the people of Zambia--he's not providing shelter, he's not providing food, he's not providing medical or dental care, he's not setting up a school to teach literacy and basic skills, he's not providing water through digging wells, he's not providing midwifery or child care services, he's not even investing money in the local economy to help business owners there--he's 'converting' Christians to...Christianity.

I will never forget John's facebook post in which he references being overweight and the amount of sugar in drinks and talks about how he can't wait to lose weight on the 'African Miracle Diet.' It's just this sort of cultural insensitivity and joking about poverty that I've come to expect from John, and I find it disgusting on many levels.

[formergothardite]

I had forgotten about the "African Miracle Diet". :roll: So John, the great "leader" mocks the people he is supposed to be helping and then jokes about the chronic poverty and starvation that the people face and how this very real danger it is going to be good for him. :angry-banghead: How can you act like this is a sort of a man who deserves the support of the church?

Not a poor choice of words, it is a poor attitude and the words just reflect that.

[nokidsmom]

This is just my beef with John (and, to be fair, many missionaries)--he isn't providing any basic, daily needs for the people of Zambia--he's not providing shelter, he's not providing food, he's not providing medical or dental care, he's not setting up a school to teach literacy and basic skills, he's not providing water through digging wells, he's not providing midwifery or child care services, he's not even investing money in the local economy to help business owners there--he's 'converting' Christians to...Christianity.

I will never forget John's facebook post in which he references being overweight and the amount of sugar in drinks and talks about how he can't wait to lose weight on the 'African Miracle Diet.' It's just this sort of cultural insensitivity and joking about poverty that I've come to expect from John, and I find it disgusting on many levels.

This. Totally this. And as mentioned above by other posters, he can't even provide basic, daily needs for his own family even as he and his wife bring more children into the same deprived situation. He honestly has no business even going to Zambia, cultural insensitivity aside (though I am not discounting it) because if he can't hustle to support his family here, then no way is he going to make any difference or positive impact on the Zambian people. From where I sit, he's not going to accomplish anything other than bragging rights and putting his family needlessly at risk. That's not in any way laudable.

[LittleOleMe]

I was going to quote Shraderfriend to answer, but, after reading both recent posts several times, all I see is two walls of text that don't address anything about John Shrader and his irresponsibility to his own family.

But I will give it one more try.

Shraderfriend, look at the facts:

- in their lifestyle, the wife does not work to earn money, but stays with the children at all times, as their only source of care and education. So she can't really bring in any money.

- John does not work to earn money.

- they have had eight children, with one more on the way.

- their children are not being supported -- their father's choices have left them homeless for most of their lives. They were all living in a tiny pop-up camper for a long time, then in a church basement.

-when John has an opportunity to get something through the charity of others, he goes for large, expensive things that don't benefit his family -- going to Africa, a plane, a Troupie, etc.

- he is taking his family on a long trip to a place that could be dangerous, without proper planning for their medical, educational or financial needs.

I don't know about you, but I was raised in a world where adults were expected to work and earn a living, even if they didn't have children. If they had children, it was even more important. To me, that is a basic moral imperative.

I have only the deepest sympathy for people who fall on hard times through no fault of their own. But that is not what has happened here -- John has chosen not to earn a living.

Never mind the mission -- tell us why you are able to overlook John Shrader's lack of responsibility for his children.

RE the bolded. This really bothers me. Women can stay home with their children, being the only (or at least main) source of their care and education while bringing in money. There are plenty of things stay at home moms can do, but even these things seem to be out of reach for these people. Esther could earn money while staying home if John would just let her do it.

[nausicaa]

RE the bolded. This really bothers me. Women can stay home with their children, being the only (or at least main) source of their care and education while bringing in money. There are plenty of things stay at home moms can do, but even these things seem to be out of reach for these people. Esther could earn money while staying home if John would just let her do it.

True, but considering that Esther probably already does 99.99% of the childcare (and with eight kids, that's A LOT of work) why should she be the one who gets another job while her husband essentially does nothing but update his social media and take flying lessons?

I personally have no beef with Esther's work ethic. Just her and her father's choice in husbands.

[nokidsmom]

True, but considering that Esther probably already does 99.99% of the childcare (and with eight kids, that's A LOT of work) why should she be the one who gets another job while her husband essentially does nothing but update his social media and take flying lessons?

I personally have no beef with Esther's work ethic. Just her and her father's choice in husbands.

Agree that with 8 kids, Esther's work is pretty much cut out for her and she has to do it, day in, day out, no matter what. Unlike her husband.

And I have said this before, but I still hold Pa Keller in part responsible for this sorry state of affairs. As Esther's headship before her marriage, he had the authority to say yes or no to this marriage and transferred his "authority" to John. As such, he bears some responsibility even if indirectly. If fundie dads insist on choosing a husband or at least having "yea or nay" authority over a daughter's choice, then transferring authority to a husband who proves to be a grifting slacker, then they have some responsibility over that lousy choice and it's repercussions. Of course, for a lot of fundie dads, it doesn't work that way. It's all about being the husband being "godly" even if he's a loser.

[turquoise]

True, but considering that Esther probably already does 99.99% of the childcare (and with eight kids, that's A LOT of work) why should she be the one who gets another job while her husband essentially does nothing but update his social media and take flying lessons?

I personally have no beef with Esther's work ethic. Just her and her father's choice in husbands.

Theoretically, yes, stay at home moms can earn money. But Esther has 8 children and a 9th on the way. She's already expected to care for them and homeschool them, whether she's living in a church basement, a popup camper, or Zambia. Realistically, how would she have time to work from home for money as well?

[OkToBeTakei]

Hi again everyone. There is so much to respond to, but I am having a hard time with the quote thing to pin point specific responses.

Thank you for the trolling explanation. I was thinking some sort of fairy tale type troll and not the fishing kind. Makes sense to me. I wish I could post more often to not get bogged down, but, I have a family that needs to be cared for, as well as a job and fulltime college (yes it is fully accredited! :D ).

So I check in at night.

From your explanations, I can see where you might get some of those impressions although I don't think it is a true representation of John's character. But time will tell.

I think formergothardite mentioned the race stuff, I don't think that it shows racism, but possibly poor choice of words. I know what you mean though. When I did mission work to a particular religious group in western state with a big lake of salt water ;) I never mentioned "souls saved", "how many doors knocked", "number of visitors", "soul talks" etc because I don't like numbers or notches on the belt to determine success. I only mentioned interactions with specific people and asked for prayer for the needs that those people had etc. I never really liked prayer letters or mission reports because I knew that it was a game of words to compete with other "missionaries" for support. I sent them but never played to the audience, just told what was going on. I also never told of our needs very often. i will not say never, because I am sure I sent out letters in stressful time where I lacked faith and opened my mouth when I should have kept quiet and let God do what he would do.

I am curious what your (formergothardite) experiences were in the ATI junk?

We tried it (ATI) with our family for 2 years, but did not see any benefit from it and it was expensive so we stopped. We never attempted to go to a conference but did try to get to know the families (even went to the duggars house and bought a car from Josh and visited their church several times). The people were "friendly" but distant, meaning not letting you really meet them, only the outward image they have portrayed. We did all the seminars (basic was interesting, advanced was worthless, Anger was a mixture of the previous, and financial freedom had no point). I noticed that only the people who felt their lives "were changed" by seeing these were accepted. I am not saying all were this way, but it was the general impression we got. Anyway after two years of wisdom books we stopped because I saw no educational benefit or even character benefit.

I have found that I can not change myself to be more godly by working at it through taking steps and applying principles. God must do the changes in me and I have to be willing to follow.

That just all sounds bizarre to me. The only way I can equate it in my head is that I tried Ariel once but it really did not get the shirts white enough so I went back to Persil.

This religious shopping malarkey will never get old for me.

I'm curious though did this person go on a mission to a Mormon city to convert them to......something. Or as a Mormon go on a mission to a Mormon city which is apparently a thing.

At which point my head explodes and I'm glad I live nowhere near proselytising cultures.

The money he is receiving to support his own family on this 'mission' could be better spent in hundreds of other ways that would be more helpful to those in Zambia. Why even pretend otherwise? Converting to some or any religion is not going to create clean water.

[uber frau]

Ah yes OKTBT, But when they die of dysentery they'll be going to heaven, and that's the most important thing.

Even if I was to believe for a moment that converting ppl was a worthy goal, I still don't understand why the Zambians need converting to the same religion they already hold to.

[nausicaa]

That just all sounds bizarre to me. The only way I can equate it in my head is that I tried Ariel once but it really did not get the shirts white enough so I went back to Persil.

This religious shopping malarkey will never get old for me.

I'm curious though did this person go on a mission to a Mormon city to convert them to......something. Or as a Mormon go on a mission to a Mormon city which is apparently a thing.

At which point my head explodes and I'm glad I live nowhere near proselytising cultures.

The money he is receiving to support his own family on this 'mission' could be better spent in hundreds of other ways that would be more helpful to those in Zambia. Why even pretend otherwise? Converting to some or any religion is not going to create clean water.

It sounds like he/she went on a mission to Utah to convert Mormons to Protestantism.

(And aside, yeah, there are Mormon missions to Utah--about 40% of the state isn't Mormon. I've heard they are some of the most difficult missions out there because the non-Mormons who live in Utah are completely aware of the LDS church, have daily access to it, and still have decided not to join, so they aren't exactly a ripe field for sowing as Mr. Shrader would say.)

[nokidsmom]

It sounds like he/she went on a mission to Utah to convert Mormons to Protestantism.

(And aside, yeah, there are Mormon missions to Utah--about 40% of the state isn't Mormon. I've heard they are some of the most difficult missions out there because the non-Mormons who live in Utah are completely aware of the LDS church, have daily access to it, and still have decided not to join, so they aren't exactly a ripe field for sowing as Mr. Shrader would say.)

My sister is a non-LDS living in Utah and is one of those who hasn't decided to join after living there 16 years and having countless missionaries coming to the door.

[formergothardite]

That just all sounds bizarre to me. The only way I can equate it in my head is that I tried Ariel once but it really did not get the shirts white enough so I went back to Persil.

This religious shopping malarkey will never get old for me.

I'm curious though did this person go on a mission to a Mormon city to convert them to......something. Or as a Mormon go on a mission to a Mormon city which is apparently a thing.

At which point my head explodes and I'm glad I live nowhere near proselytising cultures.

The money he is receiving to support his own family on this 'mission' could be better spent in hundreds of other ways that would be more helpful to those in Zambia. Why even pretend otherwise? Converting to some or any religion is not going to create clean water.

Yes, it sounds like he goes to convert Mormons. Mormons aren't "real" Christians to many people. John is even worse in that he isn't going to convert people he doesn't view as real Christians, most of the people are already protestant Christians. There is already a protestant Bible College that has trained hundreds of Zambian men to be pastors, there are hundreds of protestant Zambian churches. They don't need a racists, lazy white American to come tell them how to start churches. I think they can figure it out.

They spent what, $8,000 on plane tickets to get over there? How much on a Troupie? How much on a plane? Just imagine how many starving children that could have fed. How much clean water it could have provided. How much it could have been put into the local economy to help support it. They already have people to train pastors and start churches, what they need is clean water and food. What a waste of money. A complete waste of money. :angry-banghead:

[LittleOleMe]

Theoretically, yes, stay at home moms can earn money. But Esther has 8 children and a 9th on the way. She's already expected to care for them and homeschool them, whether she's living in a church basement, a popup camper, or Zambia. Realistically, how would she have time to work from home for money as well?

I really meant fundie women in general and I'm not suggesting that Esther SHOULD work or that she MUST work, just that she isn't allowed. She may very well want to do something outside of childcare. Maybe she likes knitting and would like to work on that and sell some stuff just to make a few dollars for herself. That's all I was really getting at there. Obviously with almost 9 children and a husband who doesn't do anything at all, she doesn't have much time - or the energy for that matter - to do anything else.

And yes, Pa Keller is still to blame for this just as much as John. Had he vetted him properly, he would have known this was his daughter's future, as well as his grandchildren. And he wonders why some of his children left.

[formergothardite]

I just discovered that there are several Bible Colleges in Zambia. One of them needs sponsors to pay the way of the Zambian students attending and requires that they also spend time learning other skills besides just the Bible to better be able to help in the community when they become pastors. One of the others says that it trains locals instead of sending American missionaries because it is more cost effective and just works better all around to have local people as opposed to having foreign missionaries.

Clearly Zambia is not in dire need of John. John, though, was in dire need of a mission field so he wouldn't look like such a failure at providing for his family. If one looks closely it is clear this is all about helping John and not about John helping others.

[nokidsmom]

I really meant fundie women in general and I'm not suggesting that Esther SHOULD work or that she MUST work, just that she isn't allowed. She may very well want to do something outside of childcare. Maybe she likes knitting and would like to work on that and sell some stuff just to make a few dollars for herself. That's all I was really getting at there. Obviously with almost 9 children and a husband who doesn't do anything at all, she doesn't have much time - or the energy for that matter - to do anything else.

And yes, Pa Keller is still to blame for this just as much as John. Had he vetted him properly, he would have known this was his daughter's future, as well as his grandchildren. And he wonders why some of his children left.

Some of them left but some of them married idiots like Josh and Pecan Thief. Out of the three married to the idiots, I have to say the Esther got the worst deal. At least Josh and Pecan Thief do have jobs even if they are with places like the FRC and ATI HQ.

[LittleOleMe]

I just discovered that there are several Bible Colleges in Zambia. One of them needs sponsors to pay the way of the Zambian students attending and requires that they also spend time learning other skills besides just the Bible to better be able to help in the community when they become pastors. One of the others says that it trains locals instead of sending American missionaries because it is more cost effective and just works better all around to have local people as opposed to having foreign missionaries.

Clearly Zambia is not in dire need of John. John, though, was in dire need of a mission field so he wouldn't look like such a failure at providing for his family. If one looks closely it is clear this is all about helping John and not about John helping others.

... then why is ANYONE funding this trip?? Before you decide to fund stuff like this, I would expect you to research it. Obviously this information isn't terribly difficult to find. Why would anyone, after doing any sort of research on this, give John any money for this?? Or anyone any money for this?? Absolutely ridiculous.

[anjulibai]

... then why is ANYONE funding this trip?? Before you decide to fund stuff like this, I would expect you to research it. Obviously this information isn't terribly difficult to find. Why would anyone, after doing any sort of research on this, give John any money for this?? Or anyone any money for this?? Absolutely ridiculous.

Because those Bible Colleges teach heresies, donchaknow. John has to go so that he can teach them right theology.

:roll:

[LittleOleMe]

Some of them left but some of them married idiots like Josh and Pecan Thief. Out of the three married to the idiots, I have to say the Esther got the worst deal. At least Josh and Pecan Thief do have jobs even if they are with places like the FRC and ATI HQ.

I always read his name as Pelican Thief .. Anyway, Esther definitely got the shit end of that stick. Josh and PT are higher ups. They both may be assholes, but at least they keep their wives in homes and clothes instead of pop-up campers.

[formergothardite]

Because those Bible Colleges teach heresies, donchaknow. John has to go so that he can teach them right theology.

:roll:

Ahh, but they don't. They teach exactly what John teaches. I checked their statements of faith. He actually mentions the Bible colleges on his Team Zambia page and talks about the hundreds of pastors they have trained and the hundreds of churches they have started. John doesn't have a leg to stand on when saying he is needed in Zambia. And the people who support him were too caught up in his speeches about how "God called him to save Zambia" that they didn't do any research to see if Zambia needed John.

One of the ones he wouldn't approve of is a Church of Christ Bible College. But they require all the people entering their missionary three year program to demonstrate that they have gifts(which sounds like skills) that would make them capable of serving in the mission field. Also, all the wives have to be trained to be missionaries and they also require this:

All students are training agriculture. This training involves use of drip-irrigation, crop rotation, compost, marketing produce, etc. In addition, students are trained in nutrition and food-preparation. The intent is that students will be empowered to feed themselves, but will also be able what they have learned so others will be able to better provide for their families. Although all students are training in agriculture, each student is also given training in one or two other skills: auto mechanics, shoe repair, construction, welding, plumbing, bicycle repair, small business skills (for setting up small grocery or hardware stores), sewing, etc.

COC is Pentecostal, right? Wasn't John super rude to the Pentecostal pastors he met in Burundi? And this was after they had been very polite to him?

[nokidsmom]

I always read his name as Pelican Thief .. Anyway, Esther definitely got the shit end of that stick. Josh and PT are higher ups. They both may be assholes, but at least they keep their wives in homes and clothes instead of pop-up campers.

One has to give credit where credit is due; there's actually someone out there that makes these two goofs look responsible by comparision.