10 Shraders in Zambia and counting...

[shraderfriend]

lol shraderfriend you are a terrible liar. Amongst all of your other inaccuracies Josh Duggar didn't even have a garage, it was a car port. Nice try.

Actually there is a detached garage just beyond the carport and to the right. you can google the house 1965 N Porter Rd, Fayetteville AR 72704.

[anjulibai]

Questions for shraderfriend to answer:

1) Why is it okay for John not to have a place to live set up before moving there?

2) Why is it okay for John not to have the visas taken care of before moving there?

3) Why is it okay for John not to make sure that his pregnant wife has proper medical care lined up before moving there, when she has had complications in labor in the past?

4) Why is it okay for John to not make sure his children have all the proper vaccinations?

5) Why is it okay for John to spend lots of money on a plane, flying lessons, a troupie, an industrial paper cutter, and fruit for a juice fast, but not on keeping a roof over his children's heads (while they were still in the US)?

6) Why is it okay for John to say his children might not have too many birthdays, because they might die in Zambia?

Answer these questions individually as numbered and please don't resort to "John truly believes" or "it's not for me to judge", because those are cop-out responses.

[shraderfriend]

This is two of mine playing in the snow when we lived there.

[anjulibai]

BTW, everyone else, please feel free to add to my list of questions, because I'm sure I'm forgetting something, and I think it's the only way we might get even close to a direct response.

[shraderfriend]

Another

[shraderfriend]

looking out the kitchen window across the street.

[shraderfriend]

I am not saying the Duggars are bad people, from what I saw of them. Just too busy with fame to take care of things. Mary was always very sweet, Jimbob was nice but aloof. Only met Michelle one time very briefly.

Josh was pretty nice, and I talked to him the most before he left (spent a lot of time at the car lot getting mine fixed). But I did really like him. Anna was very quiet and seems as though she felt out of place even at church (but i dont know. Only saw her a few times). Josh was the center stage and enjoyed his role.

[Tesseract]

[thumbnail=left]http://i.imgur.com/2mAAR8L.jpg[/thumbnail]

[formergothardite]

[attachment=0]snowday.jpg[/attachment]

This is two of mine playing in the snow when we lived there.

This is a classic ignore and divert tactic. You don't want to address the very real concerns about John so you are attempting to redirect the conversation. It won't work here. :lol:

It makes it look like you don't value children at all and you too view them as disposable that you never saw any warning flags about how he treated his children here in America and you don't appear to see how horrible it is that they are being so neglected in Zambia.

[OkToBeTakei]

When his unvaccinated children get sick and die from preventable illness, Shrader will only wail and pray and beg for money. When his wife and children start dropping like flies for want of medical care, Shrader will wail and pray and beg for money. When Esther dies in childbirth (and there's a high probability she will), he will wail and pray and beg for money. And he will wonder, "What is God trying to tell me?"

It's like he can't be bothered to provide for his family- you know, what his religion says he is supposed to be doing- so he moved them all to Zambia so they'd die off. I wish I were joking, but by all appearances, his "deputation" looks to me like Death By Mission.

Shraderfriend, What do Esther's parents think of John? Were they okay with their daughter living in a pop up camper while her husband remained unemployed? Were they okay with their grandchildren going hungry, being cold and essentially neglected because their son-in-law refused to make sure his kids were supported properly? Are they okay with their daughter being moved to Zambia, where she will experience, at best, inadequate medical care during labor and delivery? It's like her family doesn't give a damn for her any more. She's married, so her husband can do whatever he likes with her. That poor woman. My heart breaks for her.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment I do feel a bit of over generalisation or sensational statements you maybe should research.

Zambia is indeed a country with a huge poverty problem, the social structure has suffered terribly in the past 30 years. It is important to note though that rural areas make up most of this statistic. Whilst the cities are not exactly Stockholm or Copenhagen standard there is a huge ex-pat and ex-colonial population along with a high end tourist culture (safari.) So it's incorrect to assume that all health care will be sub standard.

On the other hand where I tend to agree with you is the fact that Shrader has quite likely not made financial or logistic provision for this.

I honestly wonder what the point of shraderfriend posting here is? Anybody?

[formergothardite]

I think Shrader Friend was going to "prove" that John was a good, upstanding father and missionary. When that proved too difficult he decided to rant about the Duggars. :lol:

[OkToBeTakei]

I think Shrader Friend was going to "prove" that John was a good, upstanding father and missionary. When that proved too difficult he decided to rant about the Duggars. :lol:

Fundie bitching!! Priceless :lol:

[salex]

yes I and edited my previous post about that bc I want to elaborate on it.

The conditions described are not legal.(mold on the walls,for example).Plumbing must be fixed and usable.Too many ppl under one roof...again,not legal in such a small house.(2 bed one bath).That violates fire standards.

We have all seen the show and know there was no mold on the walls.Anna was shown reg. using the bathroom sink and kitchen sink..and the infamous toilet birth...it works.

Plus,JB has $$$ and never would have allowed Josh and his gkids to live like that.I don't care for JB,but we did see the show where he redid the old house and brought it up to standards.He doesn't seem slack in that respect.esp. not where family is concerned.(more than I can say for John).

ETA: leaky roof.again,not legal.these are all basic things required to rent out a house.

And the biggie? JB is a businessman,NO way would he ever care to ruin his rep.and his name by renting out such a faulty place.(nor would he allow his mother to,who lives under his own roof).

Sry,you just ruined your credibility,shraderfriend.

And, if it were true and the troll Poster had ever complained to a friend about it, it would have been in some news media somewhere "Duggar Slumlord, Pictures at 10"

[formergothardite]

Questions for shraderfriend to answer:

1) Why is it okay for John not to have a place to live set up before moving there?

2) Why is it okay for John not to have the visas taken care of before moving there?

3) Why is it okay for John not to make sure that his pregnant wife has proper medical care lined up before moving there, when she has had complications in labor in the past?

4) Why is it okay for John to not make sure his children have all the proper vaccinations?

5) Why is it okay for John to spend lots of money on a plane, flying lessons, a troupie, an industrial paper cutter, and fruit for a juice fast, but not on keeping a roof over his children's heads (while they were still in the US)?

6) Why is it okay for John to say his children might not have too many birthdays, because they might die in Zambia?

Answer these questions individually as numbered and please don't resort to "John truly believes" or "it's not for me to judge", because those are cop-out responses.

I think the most telling thing about John and Shrader Friend's belief system is that NOBODY in the IFB churches John was traveling to seemed to care about the impact his lifestyle has on the kids. I honestly don't think SF even thought about it until we brought it up. They spout that children are a blessing, but look how they treat them. We, the people they view as godless, care more about John's children then any of the Christians in his life. SF, if the God you worship wants children to be treated like this, well I'm glad I don't worship your God. Your God sounds terrible.

I hope he does answer these questions, but I think it will be a struggle for him because in reality, he probably doesn't see anything wrong with treating children as disposable objects owned by the parents.

[anjulibai]

I think the most telling thing about John and Shrader Friend's belief system is that NOBODY in the IFB churches John was traveling to seemed to care about the impact his lifestyle has on the kids. I honestly don't think SF even thought about it until we brought it up. They spout that children are a blessing, but look how they treat them. We, the people they view as godless, care more about John's children then any of the Christians in his life. SF, if the God you worship wants children to be treated like this, well I'm glad I don't worship your God. Your God sounds terrible.

I hope he does answer these questions, but I think it will be a struggle for him because in reality, he probably doesn't see anything wrong with treating children as disposable objects owned by the parents.

I agree.

And I hope he answers these questions, too, but given that I posted them when he was on last night and he ignored them, I don't think he will.

Prove me wrong, shraderfriend. Answer these questions, directly.

[shraderfriend]

1) Why is it okay for John not to have a place to live set up before moving there? This is common for many missionaries or even people who move for business. He has a place for them to stay that must have been set up beforehand with another church family in the area. He is currently seeking more suitable housing. It would not be my preference but I would not say it is wrong.

2) Why is it okay for John not to have the visas taken care of before moving there? Again, this is not an issue that puts anyone in harm as that seems to be your main complaint about John. It appears he had mis information regarding the visas. I am not a world traveller, I would not know what to need.

3) Why is it okay for John not to make sure that his pregnant wife has proper medical care lined up before moving there, when she has had complications in labor in the past? What would be proper medical care in your opinion, a midwife, hospital or what? I am not a midwife fan myself, and we have only done hospital births with my children. I am not sure what you would want lined up. I know nothing about Zambia or the hospitals that are available. There is no sure way to prevent issues that may occur even in a hospital.

4) Why is it okay for John to not make sure his children have all the proper vaccinations? Again, what is proper in your opinion. I am not sure what his view of vaccines is. Every child reacts differently to vaccines, I know mine do. We vaccinate ours and sometimes are selective about a few. But I would vaccinate for likely things that are prevelant in other lands if going there. Doesnt mean I am right.

5) Why is it okay for John to spend lots of money on a plane, flying lessons, a troupie, an industrial paper cutter, and fruit for a juice fast, but not on keeping a roof over his children's heads (while they were still in the US)? That is what the money was for. The plane was given to him, and other monies I am sure were designated for specific items in many cases. To use it otherwise would be dishonest. He has chosen to live frugally in order to get them to Zambia faster as well as help other missionaries that are already there. Hi family has had a place to sleep and food and clothing the entire way. It is just not what you would consider good enough.

6) Why is it okay for John to say his children might not have too many birthdays, because they might die in Zambia? No. not in my opinion.

[formergothardite]

In almost 40 years I have never heard of a missionary dragging their family to a country with no housing already set up.

~Have you read the Poisonwood Bible?

~If Esther decided to get a full time job and put the children in public school, John would agree with this since you have claimed he doesn't believe public school is a sin? Are the daughters being raised to know that they do not have to homeschool and that public school is a perfectly good option?

~Has John planned for medical care for his children in Zambia? Does he have a doctor lined up for them? A dentist? Does he have a plan for if something bad happens to them. If you do not know, why did no one ask about this before supporting him? Do not answer that it is normal to neglect your children this way and no big deal. If this is normal in your circles then it really reflects poorly on your values. All the people I know who even moved towns found doctors for their kids before they moved. Moving countries, hell yes they would have found these things out.

~How is it treating children as if they are precious gifts from God to put them in very real danger just so John can snap a picture while speeding down a highway in bad weather?

~If you can't say how this is treating them as they are precious, then why exactly are you supporting the ministry of a man who treats his children's lives with such carelessness?

~It is impossible for these children to have received a good education with the constant travel, the living in pop-up campers, living in church basements, and a mother who has suffered difficult pregnancies. Does this not concern you?

~Did anyone at all at anytime(besides us)show any concern about how this missionary lifestyle will impact the children?

~At anytime was he asked to prove that this move to Zambia was in the best interest of his children? If not, why? This is a voluntary move that he was asking people to finance. Why would no one look into what is best for his children?

~How do you think the people in Zambia would feel if they found out he mocked them and acted like they were grass wearing cannibals. And then bragged about how the very real starvation that some face there are going to help him lose some weight? Why did no one call him out on these instances? Why was he not asked to publically apologize for treating the people of Zambia in such a way?

*I would also like to point out that this isn't a sudden move. John has had several years to research and find doctors/dentists for his children. He has known since the beginning of the pregnancy that Esther would need at least a midwife. He has known for a long time that he needed to have a permanent place for his family to live. He has no excuse.

[formergothardite]

Last I checked John was just praying that a midwife would be over there in Zambia, he didn't seem to be doing anything pro-active to make sure that his very pregnant wife who has a history of pregnancy complications would have at least SOME medical care when he arrived.

[Luisainlondon1]

Shraderfriend, even though I don't agree with most of what you say about John, I must say I appreciate that dialog very much. Thank you!

edited: english is not my first language

[anjulibai]

1) Why is it okay for John not to have a place to live set up before moving there? This is common for many missionaries or even people who move for business. He has a place for them to stay that must have been set up beforehand with another church family in the area. He is currently seeking more suitable housing. It would not be my preference but I would not say it is wrong.

No, actually it isn't common. Especially when you have that many children.

2) Why is it okay for John not to have the visas taken care of before moving there? Again, this is not an issue that puts anyone in harm as that seems to be your main complaint about John. It appears he had mis information regarding the visas. I am not a world traveller, I would not know what to need.

It definitely is a serious issue. For one thing, it's flouting the laws of Zambia, which could potentially get John arrested and deported.

3) Why is it okay for John not to make sure that his pregnant wife has proper medical care lined up before moving there, when she has had complications in labor in the past? What would be proper medical care in your opinion, a midwife, hospital or what? I am not a midwife fan myself, and we have only done hospital births with my children. I am not sure what you would want lined up. I know nothing about Zambia or the hospitals that are available. There is no sure way to prevent issues that may occur even in a hospital.

Seriously? What is proper medical care? That's your response? Yikes, that is pathetic. John prayed for a midwife, and that's it. There's no way to prevent some issues, but having a hospital nearby could prevent Esther from dying. FFS.

4) Why is it okay for John to not make sure his children have all the proper vaccinations? Again, what is proper in your opinion. I am not sure what his view of vaccines is. Every child reacts differently to vaccines, I know mine do. We vaccinate ours and sometimes are selective about a few. But I would vaccinate for likely things that are prevelant in other lands if going there. Doesnt mean I am right.

Also, yikes. If you go to another country that has common diseases, you vaccinate for them. That's it, nothing to it. He didn't. He prayed about it, but that's it. That is playing dangerously with his innocent children's lives and is completely and totally irresponsible.

Also, there's only one proper opinion on vaccinations, and that's unless your kid will die from getting them, you vaccinate your kid. Anything else is irrational.

5) Why is it okay for John to spend lots of money on a plane, flying lessons, a troupie, an industrial paper cutter, and fruit for a juice fast, but not on keeping a roof over his children's heads (while they were still in the US)? That is what the money was for. The plane was given to him, and other monies I am sure were designated for specific items in many cases. To use it otherwise would be dishonest. He has chosen to live frugally in order to get them to Zambia faster as well as help other missionaries that are already there. Hi family has had a place to sleep and food and clothing the entire way. It is just not what you would consider good enough.

So, basically it was okay for John to buy those things because that's what he asked people for? Seriously, that's your response? His family lived in a pop-up camper. No, it isn't good enough, because it is illegal. That John never got caught was because he moved around too much.

6) Why is it okay for John to say his children might not have too many birthdays, because they might die in Zambia? No. not in my opinion.

And yet you support him? How can any decent human being support a person that says that? How can you look at all of this and still think John will be a great missionary.

Seriously, all of your responses just make you sound totally in denial about John's unfitness.

[BravaAmica]

I think the most telling thing about John and Shrader Friend's belief system is that NOBODY in the IFB churches John was traveling to seemed to care about the impact his lifestyle has on the kids. I honestly don't think SF even thought about it until we brought it up. They spout that children are a blessing, but look how they treat them. We, the people they view as godless, care more about John's children then any of the Christians in his life. SF, if the God you worship wants children to be treated like this, well I'm glad I don't worship your God. Your God sounds terrible.

I hope he does answer these questions, but I think it will be a struggle for him because in reality, he probably doesn't see anything wrong with treating children as disposable objects owned by the parents.

IFB and their ilk view children as possessions, as things that they own, like a dog. And you know, you just can't tell a man how to raise his own children, because he owns them. They're his to do with as he pleases. Even if it means allowing children to go without food, medical and dental care, adequate clothing and shelter all because their father believes he has a "deputation" to move to an already Christian country and "convert the natives."

[shraderfriend]

You all seem to be very upset by this and that is what is astounding to me. You all want it your way and anything short will please you. I really did not matter how I or anyone else answers your questions unless it is in complete agreement with you. You want it both ways on every issue as well. When you discussed why John chose Zambia, you all said because he looked at a map of Africa and that was the safest place. But at the same time you want to argue that it is too dangerous of a place to go with kids. You say you are looking out for the best interest of the family, when what you mean is that you hope one of them dies off quickly so you can say "I told you so". Your biggest fear really seems to be that John will be successful, nobody will get sick or injured and his kids will become missionaries and continue in his footsteps after seeing how God has provided.

Do I agree with all he has apparently said or done? No, but I do not agree with everything I have done in the past. I am also not a risk taker when it comes to safety issues and we over react to our kids getting skinned knees and the like. But you all paint John much differently than how he is for your own entertainment. which is odd.

[Howl]

My deep concern is that, should Esther fall ill, the entire situation will come tumbling down. In addition, if one person in this family acquires a contagious illness, everyone will get it.

I checked out the CDC Web page for vax recommendations for Zambia.

Other than the strong recommendations for basic vaccinations (including polio) they also recommend typhoid, malaria, hepatitis A.

I would have to say that the first priority is making certain they have a CLEAN water supply through treatment or filtration. Those who have visited or travelled in developing countries know this is something that requires daily, sometimes hourly, vigilance.

Also with many mouths to feed, just getting food each day can be a challenge and the children are not quite old enough to take on major responsibilities.

[16strong]

You all seem to be very upset by this and that is what is astounding to me. You all want it your way and anything short will please you. I really did not matter how I or anyone else answers your questions unless it is in complete agreement with you. You want it both ways on every issue as well. When you discussed why John chose Zambia, you all said because he looked at a map of Africa and that was the safest place. But at the same time you want to argue that it is too dangerous of a place to go with kids. You say you are looking out for the best interest of the family, when what you mean is that you hope one of them dies off quickly so you can say "I told you so". Your biggest fear really seems to be that John will be successful, nobody will get sick or injured and his kids will become missionaries and continue in his footsteps after seeing how God has provided.

Do I agree with all he has apparently said or done? No, but I do not agree with everything I have done in the past. I am also not a risk taker when it comes to safety issues and we over react to our kids getting skinned knees and the like. But you all paint John much differently than how he is for your own entertainment. which is odd.

Shraderfriend, we are hardly setting the bar very high. A qualified medical professional and facilities with the technology to save her and the baby's life should something go wrong during Esther's pregnancy and birth is not a lot. In fact, it is an expectation in most of the developed world. And by most, I mean all of those except the Shraders and their community, apparently. I don't think you understand that because the Shraders have not looked into proper medical care for her, SHE COULD DIE. If that happens, will you be okay with what you have said here?

Now about the kids? They are going into a foreign country filled with bacteria, diseases, and parasites that their bodies have not been exposed to where they are from. These things can all be deadly without proper immunizations, especially to young children. Heck, even with the proper medical attention and immunizations, they can still die. It is a very real possibility, and I promise you that I am not over-exaggerating here. I have to go now, so I can't address the rest, but yeah.

[shraderfriend]

Howl,

Those are very legitimate concerns. I would agree with you 100%. I hope that John is considering those things as well doing something about it especially that water issue you bring up. I have never gone anywhere with those issues and have never had to prepare for it. The closest thing I have ever done is a week long trip to Villa de Las Palmas in Baja California when I was in high school before you needed a passport to go. We were somewhat near Encinada if I recall correctly so pretty much all we (the group) needed we brought or were able to buy somewhere. Unlike the wonderful people who live there, who struggled to get what they needed daily, yet were willing to give freely to us dumb white kids who could not speak their language and sounded like idiots when we tried.