10 Shraders in Zambia and counting...

[formergothardite]

As far as taking a picture while driving in a rain storm, again, I wouldn't do that, if you have a co-pilot up front, let them do it.

You are avoiding answering the question. Is it treating the children in the van like they are precious gifts from God for John to snap pictures while speeding down a highway in very bad weather? Stuff like this kills people on a regular basis. If you are friends with John on FB(and since he calls you I'm guessing you can friend him) go look through his pictures and find the van one. THEN you can discuss it. Or are you too afraid to look and see how carelessly John treats his children? What about their education? It is impossible for them to receive a good education while constantly traveling on deputation like they did and now their idiot father has them over in Zambia with no supplies, no visas, no place to live. How are they going to get a good education? A one good enough where even the girls could go to college if they desired? Especially since their teacher has to be exhausted from the constant travel and child birth.

And what about medical care? Did they have regular medical care here in America? Regular dental appointments. Eye check-ups? John didn't even plan a place for them to live so I will be shocked if he found them doctors. This is not good parenting. This is not treating children as if they are the most valuable gifts God can give you. It is treating them as objects owned by the parents.

About the "racism" nothing you have written proves he is racist, It may prove he has a poor sense of humor and shouldn't have hit send without re-reading the joke to see how it looks or if it is funny

.

So in your mind making jokes like John did is just a "poor sense of humor" but what about the people of Zambia? How do you think it would make them feel to see the person who is saying that God is sending him there to help them "joking" that they are grass eating cannibals who kill missionaries? How do you think it will make the mothers with starving children feel to find out that John just is so excited about coming to Africa so he can be hungry and lose weight? Does this not reflect what is inside of John? A fool who mocks starvation?

[anjulibai]

But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

(Mat 21:28-31)

I'm guessing you don't realize that John is the second son there.

[formergothardite]

If we are doing Bible verses that apply to John, I think we should go with 1 Timothy 5:8:

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

The man went to Zambia with no plans for his children's safety, no visas, no place for his children to stay, no midwife for his very pregnant wife, and I'm sure the list can go on, so he is pretty much worse than an infidel. So John is worse than me, the unbeliever.

I am just another loser with a family that is praying for John as he goes where he believes God wants him and has directed him.

Your God sounds like an asshole if he is really directing John to treat his family this way and to treat the people of Zambia this way.

[scc12]

yes I and edited my previous post about that bc I want to elaborate on it.

The conditions described are not legal.(mold on the walls,for example).Plumbing must be fixed and usable.Too many ppl under one roof...again,not legal in such a small house.(2 bed one bath).That violates fire standards.

We have all seen the show and know there was no mold on the walls.Anna was shown reg. using the bathroom sink and kitchen sink..and the infamous toilet birth...it works.

Plus,JB has $$$ and never would have allowed Josh and his gkids to live like that.I don't care for JB,but we did see the show where he redid the old house and brought it up to standards.He doesn't seem slack in that respect.esp. not where family is concerned.(more than I can say for John).

ETA: leaky roof.again,not legal.these are all basic things required to rent out a house.

And the biggie? JB is a businessman,NO way would he ever care to ruin his rep.and his name by renting out such a faulty place.(nor would he allow his mother to,who lives under his own roof).

Sry,you just ruined your credibility,shraderfriend.

I also meant to add,JB as a businessman (and his mother) would never rent to you sight unseen.You obv. don't even understand how the rental process works.A walk-thru is required,along with a checklist.So any problems would have been known about beforehand.

You did not stay long....wrong again.A lease would have been signed by you,had JB or his mother rented to you.Probably for at least one year.

If you can't tell the truth about something like this,how are we supposed to believe anything else you say?

[formergothardite]

Also someone mentioned public school as a sin, but it did not come from the Shraders

So are you saying that John believes that it would be perfectly fine for Esther to say she no longer wants to home school, that she wants to put the kids in public school and go get a full time job herself? That John would be fully on board with this idea? That he teaches his daughters that they don't need to stay at home with their children, that they can go to college, have a career, put their kids in public school? Because I would love to see some proof that John teaches this.

Oh yes and also the idea that dad has veto rights on a marriage, who said that in the shrader family?

You have misunderstood what people are saying. They are saying that in ATI(and Esther was raised ATI) the father was responsible for finding a good husband for the daughter, so Esther's dad is responsible for finding her a husband that will drag her to Zambia heavily pregnant and not even plan for housing. Her married her off to a selfish fool and really should have staged an intervention way before now. Tell John to go to Zambia, get established, see what he needs and what he doesn't need and THEN look into bringing the wife and kids and consider buying an airplane and expensive Troupie.

Last I checked at least Josh planned for housing for his children. That makes him more responsible than John. Pecan Thief may have taken his pregnant wife to steal pecans and then made a racist statement(that you would pass off as a joke :roll: )but at least he appears to be able to plan trips and provide stability for his wife and children.

[ILoveJellybeans]

A lot gets posted on here each day. Wow.

John called me today and we spoke for a short time. Mainly wanted to see if I got his emails and so forth.

I would like to let you all know not to put Josh Duggar to high above John in the caring for his family dept. I can not speak to the pecan thief whoever that is because I dont know him. But when Josh and Anna moved to DC, I and my family rented his house from grandma Duggar basically sight unseen in person. Plumbing was terrible and never worked in kitchen or bath in any part with a drain, the garage was dangerous and did not want to go in much less my kids, the house was filled with mold on all of the walls, not to mention the people who would show up when I was at work to try to meet a Duggar which was not pleasant for my family as you have no idea who it was. Oh, yes there was really no A/C either and the roof leaked. There were times I would have preferred a pop up trailer. We did not stay long. The only reason they have a nice place now is that his name got him a job. I like Josh and Anna, but just wanted add that.

Wow, really? I cant believe they let the house get like that, it looked just fine on TV.

I think its still better than being homeless in a far away country though. Or living in a pop up with nine other people. I don't know how they managed to conceive a child there, Im sure those poor kids are traumatized by the sound of their parents humping, and it must be very cramped.

BTW, Pecan Thief is David Waller, the husband of Esther's sister Priscilla. They've got a toddler boy and are expecting another.

In Zambia, the least of the Shraders worries are a house with dodgy plumbing, a leaky roof or mould on the walls. These kids have a dumbass father who didn't find a house for them or sort out visas before he moved them to a different country. He relies on others to take care of him instead of earning it himself. At least Josh and David have jobs, even if they are with dodgy organisations and Josh is crap at it anyway because he is so lazy. John has no job, he begs for money and isn't responsible with his funds. What does he need more? A house or a plane? Guess which one he got with that money? Esther is heavily pregnant, if they haven't sorted a house out, they probably haven't sorted out any form of medical care for when she gives birth, which may be a problem as she has a history of hard labours and we were concerned about her last time, and now it will be even worse because she is in a far away country where medical care isn't as good as in America. I bet he never thought of finding a good midwife or knowing where the hospital is. The kids aren't vaccinated, so might catch a deadly disease and die. I don't know whether the other Keller siblings have vaccinated their kids, but they live in a country where they are far less likely to catch anything serious (but still, they should be doing, its just its far less risky in America).

[Curious]

Er wait...so they don't have the visas yet? He seriously flew his pregnant wife over there without the visas being approved AND they have no housing? I'm not sure how visas work because I've never been out of the country (other than to Mexico when I was a kid and you didn't need a passport for that at the time), but if you are applying for visas for long term for that many people wouldn't housing be one of the things the govt wants to know about?

So they are staying there on what? The good grace of the country for now with no housing and no belongings other than the luggage they brought with them? When will they find out about the visas?

This just sounds worse by the minute :(

[LittleOleMe]

I am a little confused as to why Shraderfriend would be friends with the Duggars enough to rent a house yet slam Gothard like this? Weirdness abounds.

I haven't read ahead yet so I apologize if this has already been brought up, but this proves that Shraderfriend is completely full of shit. He made this comment earlier:

We never attempted to go to a conference but did try to get to know the families (even went to the duggars house and bought a car from Josh and visited their church several times).

So he went to their house once and bought a car from josh and visited the church several times but then also rented Josh's house? And didn't stay long? How long did you stay then? Bc Josh hasn't been gone for much longer than a year. Also, everything that was stated about mold and plumbing not working is completely illegal. So again, I call bullshit.

[nausicaa]

Despite knowing how dumb and unprepared John is, I still expected him to have at least some housing worked out and have contacts. Instead he bumbles off the plane, nowhere for his kids to stay and trusts the first person he meets. :angry-banghead: :cray-cray: He is going to crash faster than I expected.

My thoughts exactly. I have pretty much the lowest opinion possible of John's intelligence and planning skills, and I am still gobsmacked that he moved a family of ten to a foreign country and had no housing arranged.

How the hell does Esther not snap and start chewing his ass off when he pulls this crap?

[formergothardite]

It is like he read the Poisonwood Bible as a manual on how to be a missionary. Shrader Friend, if you haven't read that book, you should.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Esther should divorce his lazy ass and go back to America. I don't even think her family would fault her for that. I would love to know what their family think about this, surely even fundies know that John is bad at planning and a complete idiot for this clusterfuck of mistakes.

[nausicaa]

Er wait...so they don't have the visas yet? He seriously flew his pregnant wife over there without the visas being approved AND they have no housing? I'm not sure how visas work because I've never been out of the country (other than to Mexico when I was a kid and you didn't need a passport for that at the time), but if you are applying for visas for long term for that many people wouldn't housing be one of the things the govt wants to know about?

This just sounds worse by the minute :(

Yes, for the vast majority of travel visas (at least the ones I applied for) one had to show where one would be living and provide the address and proof of the ability to take up residency there (and most of these countries I was staying in for less than a week). For the country I moved to for a year, I had to have the organization I was working for sponsor me so I could get my work permit and provide assurance that I would be housed.

So yeah, John's a spectacular dumbass.

[slickcat79]

Er wait...so they don't have the visas yet? He seriously flew his pregnant wife over there without the visas being approved AND they have no housing? I'm not sure how visas work because I've never been out of the country (other than to Mexico when I was a kid and you didn't need a passport for that at the time), but if you are applying for visas for long term for that many people wouldn't housing be one of the things the govt wants to know about?

So they are staying there on what? The good grace of the country for now with no housing and no belongings other than the luggage they brought with them? When will they find out about the visas?

This just sounds worse by the minute :(

Americans don't need Visas to enter Zambia as tourists. John and family can stay there for a certain period (probably at least 30 days) with nothing but a passport. John is not technically allowed to work (even his dubious missionary work) until he has the proper Visas, but I wouldn't be surprised if he ignored that and was never found out. They can still be issued the Visas they've already applied for while they're in-country...I guess John is just hoping "God" comes through with them in the next month.

In one of the newsletters that John posted before his FB went private mentioned a prayer request that they would find a good midwife for Esther in Zambia. No way would they have planned that in advance. I think someone upthread mentioned that there was a hospital in Kafue, although the only medical facility I can find information on seems to be an HIV/AIDS clinic :|

[Evangeline]

Oh, earlier someone said that "going into debt is a sin" in the minds of the shraders. Where did that idea come from? I have never heard him or his dad say or teach that. Only that debt is a form of bondage that is good to avoid. The same with wives working. I have never heard it forbidden in them, but taught the opposite that there are times when the wife may need to help. Also someone mentioned public school as a sin, but it did not come from the Shraders. Oh yes and also the idea that dad has veto rights on a marriage, who said that in the shrader family? I have heard and seen them demonstrate that the father helps guide but ultimately the daughter will marry who she will marry, but the dad does not pick the groom as many seem to think.

I don't know about the debt part, but you're wrong about the rest of it. I challenge you to ask John his opinions of working mothers and why his kids don't go to public school. While you're at it, ask him how he and Esther got together. And don't take "the Lord brought us together" as an answer.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Americans don't need Visas to enter Zambia as tourists. John and family can stay there for a certain period (probably at least 30 days) with nothing but a passport. John is not technically allowed to work (even his dubious missionary work) until he has the proper Visas, but I wouldn't be surprised if he ignored that and was never found out. They can still be issued the Visas they've already applied for while they're in-country...I guess John is just hoping "God" comes through with them in the next month.

In one of the newsletters that John posted before his FB went private mentioned a prayer request that they would find a good midwife for Esther in Zambia. No way would they have planned that in advance. I think someone upthread mentioned that there was a hospital in Kafue, although the only medical facility I can find information on seems to be an HIV/AIDS clinic :|

What would happen if they don't get the visas? I doubt they would be allowed to if they haven't even made plans for housing, and are basically getting by through handouts from people back home. 10 people, soon to be 11, none of the adults have paying jobs and aren't planning to do anything but beg for money from people back in America, who have come over without any plans for housing. No country would want them. They should be glad they are coming from America to Zambia and not the other way around, or everyone who supported them would be whining about these foreigners with their large families, thinking they can come over to our country, do no work and expect everyone to give their religion priority.

[nokidsmom]

I also meant to add,JB as a businessman (and his mother) would never rent to you sight unseen.You obv. don't even understand how the rental process works.A walk-thru is required,along with a checklist.So any problems would have been known about beforehand.

You did not stay long....wrong again.A lease would have been signed by you,had JB or his mother rented to you.Probably for at least one year.

If you can't tell the truth about something like this,how are we supposed to believe anything else you say?

The state of the rental is neither here nor there, as far as I am concerned, and FTR I don't believe the house is in disrepair, it's known for a fact it was worked on, it looked to be in decent shape and agree with the others that JB would never let his family members live in a house that had the problems described. The point is that John has consistently shown himself to be unable (or more likely unwilling because he looks to be able bodied enough) to adequately provide for his family as demonstrated especially by continually uprooting them and having them live for extended periods of time in a pop up camper and church basements. And now he hauls them all to to a foreign country with the aim of being missionary for an extended period of time, and guess what, he still didn't have housing lined up. That this basic need doesn't seem to be a priority for him right there makes him more than irresponsible, he is negligent. That is something that Josh, for all things we don't like about him, has never done to his family.

[gustava]

Real shraderfriends don't let Shrader children be homeless in Africa....or anywhere else, for that matter.

[slickcat79]

What would happen if they don't get the visas? I doubt they would be allowed to if they haven't even made plans for housing, and are basically getting by through handouts from people back home. 10 people, soon to be 11, none of the adults have paying jobs and aren't planning to do anything but beg for money from people back in America, who have come over without any plans for housing. No country would want them. They should be glad they are coming from America to Zambia and not the other way around, or everyone who supported them would be whining about these foreigners with their large families, thinking they can come over to our country, do no work and expect everyone to give their religion priority.

I have no idea what they would do if their visa applications are actually rejected. In order to comply with the law, they should go back home. If they thought they could resolve the problems with the visas, they could just leave the country and re-enter, which would start their tourist period over again. I'm guessing this is why John was on "deputation" for so long. If he has enough money available to support himself in Zambia for a year, that along with his connection to already-established churches/missionaries is probably sufficient to get a Visa. It might not be in the US (or another Western country), but countries in sub-Saharan Africa have different immigration issues.

[bumblebee]

In my late teens and early 20s (during college) I worked for a big lettings agency and given what I saw from well off, "responsible" landlords I could definitely believe JB let out properties in the state described. Families do let houses go to ruin and then expect to find perfect tenants almost immediately. I can't say anything about the theoretical state Josh and Anna's house was left in but their scenario "move for a job, expect to rent out the house for good money despite not doing anything to it for years" is very common in all income brackets.

[tkr322]

lol shraderfriend you are a terrible liar. Amongst all of your other inaccuracies Josh Duggar didn't even have a garage, it was a car port. Nice try.

[16strong]

You know, if I had the money, I would totally pay to bring the Shraders back to the US when this whole thing inevitably goes sour...minus John.

[thoughtful]

A lot gets posted on here each day. Wow.

John called me today and we spoke for a short time. Mainly wanted to see if I got his emails and so forth.

I would like to let you all know not to put Josh Duggar to high above John in the caring for his family dept. I can not speak to the pecan thief whoever that is because I dont know him. But when Josh and Anna moved to DC, I and my family rented his house from grandma Duggar basically sight unseen in person. Plumbing was terrible and never worked in kitchen or bath in any part with a drain, the garage was dangerous and did not want to go in much less my kids, the house was filled with mold on all of the walls, not to mention the people who would show up when I was at work to try to meet a Duggar which was not pleasant for my family as you have no idea who it was. Oh, yes there was really no A/C either and the roof leaked. There were times I would have preferred a pop up trailer. We did not stay long. The only reason they have a nice place now is that his name got him a job. I like Josh and Anna, but just wanted add that.

I am not going to comment a lot on box fans in vans etc because I have not seen the pictures. All i can say it I would not have done that. As far as taking a picture while driving in a rain storm, again, I wouldn't do that, if you have a co-pilot up front, let them do it.

About the "racism" nothing you have written proves he is racist, It may prove he has a poor sense of humor and shouldn't have hit send without re-reading the joke to see how it looks or if it is funny.

Someone thought maybe I am john posting. Well no, I am a guy who grew up poor in California, living in poorly maintained houses in which some, when I was small, had dirt floors because the floors had caved in. I did not grow up in a Christian home, my parents both worked hard at their respective jobs, I went to public school and am the only high school grad in my family (class of 1994 woo hoo). I went stood in line in the 80's for boxes of govt cheese, white labeled cans of fruits and veggies and grew up in bad part of town. I was the white kid on the basketball team, the fat kid on the baseball team, and the poor kid in most everything. In high school my gpa was .87 my first 2 and 1/2 years then I got saved. My GPA was 3.0 my last 3 semesters and I made up many classes to find out on the last day of my senior year if I would graduate or not. I did. I have worked hard my whole life and have a wife and 4 children with one more soon. We have had many tough times financially but have also had good times as i have developed expertise in a certain field that I hate but can always go back to for a good paycheck anytime I want anywhere in the USA. I am also a preacher, that has been a missionary and pastor. I have made mistakes AND put the ministry ahead of my family before, thankfully never to much and my wife has always been there to help me re-focus. I am not John, I am just another loser with a family that is praying for John as he goes where he believes God wants him and has directed him.

Oh, earlier someone said that "going into debt is a sin" in the minds of the shraders. Where did that idea come from? I have never heard him or his dad say or teach that. Only that debt is a form of bondage that is good to avoid. The same with wives working. I have never heard it forbidden in them, but taught the opposite that there are times when the wife may need to help. Also someone mentioned public school as a sin, but it did not come from the Shraders. Oh yes and also the idea that dad has veto rights on a marriage, who said that in the shrader family? I have heard and seen them demonstrate that the father helps guide but ultimately the daughter will marry who she will marry, but the dad does not pick the groom as many seem to think.

What I have noticed here is that a lot of people on this site have seen people damaged by teachings or been damaged themselves and have presuppositions about anyone who appears to fit the mold (in their eyes) of those teachings that has been so damaging. The accusations I just mentioned that are often attributed to John, may be views of crazy people like the Pearls, Gothard, Maxwells, and the like but are not held by John to my knowledge.

I really appreciate this forum, because I like perspective that only comes from talking will all people of all backgrounds. I have developed and appreciation for your point of views about missions, churches, IFB and even about John. I can even see why you came to your conclusions based on the evidence that you have seen using Aristotelian logic. I just don't agree that the evidence proves your conclusions. We don't have all of the info to make a conclusive decision as Jesus teaches...

But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

(Mat 21:28-31)

The people answering Jesus only came to the correct conclusion by Him revealing the entire story. If you viewed the incident and did not see what both sons did after leaving his father, you may conclude that the second son did correctly because you saw his response and maybe later went and saw that the work was done but never saw you did it, and in your mind think well of the wrong son in this instance.

You cannot know the character and love John may or may not have from a picture here and there and emails spread over a few years.

Thanks a lot and keep up your work, I like to think about it.

I see we got another wall of non-sequiturs, red herrings and wanderings from shraderfriend. I’m surprised it took him this long to add a Bible verse.

He doesn’t seem to want to address our concerns for the children, but I will address his post.

Shraderfriend:

We were not claiming that Josh and/or David are paragons of virtue – the point was that, as bad as they are, even they have provided housing for their children. So your long harangue about Josh’s house, true or not, is moot.

Nice to know you wouldn’t have children ride in dangerous situations – neither would I, but neither of us is the subject of this thread. You haven’t answered why you still think a man who would endanger his children, in addition to not providing for them, deserves your support.

I have no idea why you told your life story – it has nothing to do with what we are discussing. Were you trying to say you turned out just fine despite being poor, and/or that Jesus was the answer to all of your ills? Was that supposed to imply that John’s kids will be OK because Jesus?

I have to point out that this quote:

I have made mistakes AND put the ministry ahead of my family before, thankfully never to much and my wife has always been there to help me re-focus

sure does sound like you are admitting that putting the ministry before your family is a bad thing. So why defend John?

John was raised in the Gothard cult, and, from what I understand, has gone off in his own direction – correct me if I’m wrong about either. Posters here are not entangled in all of that, and some don’t know the lingo, so the fine distinction of whether debt is a “sin†or, as you put it, “a form of bondage that is good to avoid†may be meaningless to them. The point is that John was probably raised to believe debt is bad.

Same with not homeschooling, women choosing their own husbands, and women working – whether these things were discouraged, disdained, taught against, forbidden, whatever, doesn’t matter. It’s a big part of the culture to which John belonged, and from which he still seems to draw many of his ideas, to not do those things.

These facts were pointed out for various reasons, to make several points. You ignored the points being made to discuss the minutiae. You managed to get two more paragraphs out of angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin distinctions, to make it look like you were really answering something.

If your compliments to us were sincere, then discuss and debate honestly. Address the issue you have not yet addressed – how can anyone support a parent (especially a parent who has many children, which has to add to what is needed, financially, emotionally, and educationally) who is not taking care of his children, and is even endangering them?

[SPHASH]

Even single mom Susannah Keller and her daughter are in a much better situation than Esther and her brood.

[BravaAmica]

Those poor children (and Esther) really don't stand a chance :( I really fear for Esther giving birth over there, given the problems she had last time. She will be under so much stress and worse conditions (who thought that would be possible). If something happens to her, those kids will be in so much trouble. It's heartbreaking to even think about any of this stuff.

I still can't believe the Kellers or someone didn't try to stop him taking Esther and the kids :(

When his unvaccinated children get sick and die from preventable illness, Shrader will only wail and pray and beg for money. When his wife and children start dropping like flies for want of medical care, Shrader will wail and pray and beg for money. When Esther dies in childbirth (and there's a high probability she will), he will wail and pray and beg for money. And he will wonder, "What is God trying to tell me?"

It's like he can't be bothered to provide for his family- you know, what his religion says he is supposed to be doing- so he moved them all to Zambia so they'd die off. I wish I were joking, but by all appearances, his "deputation" looks to me like Death By Mission.

Shraderfriend, What do Esther's parents think of John? Were they okay with their daughter living in a pop up camper while her husband remained unemployed? Were they okay with their grandchildren going hungry, being cold and essentially neglected because their son-in-law refused to make sure his kids were supported properly? Are they okay with their daughter being moved to Zambia, where she will experience, at best, inadequate medical care during labor and delivery? It's like her family doesn't give a damn for her any more. She's married, so her husband can do whatever he likes with her. That poor woman. My heart breaks for her.

[shraderfriend]

I also meant to add,JB as a businessman (and his mother) would never rent to you sight unseen.You obv. don't even understand how the rental process works.A walk-thru is required,along with a checklist.So any problems would have been known about beforehand.

You did not stay long....wrong again.A lease would have been signed by you,had JB or his mother rented to you.Probably for at least one year.

If you can't tell the truth about something like this,how are we supposed to believe anything else you say?

Actually everything I stated about the house is true. We were there during the winter months right after they moved to DC. If you look on some episodes you can see where they paint is peeling in the bedrooms near the ceiling, where a lot of the mold forms. It also formed along all of the walls in the bathrooms. The one time we went to the Duggars house was to fill out the rental contract. There was not lease. It was month to month. I tried to post pictures of the house but i and not sure how to add one or "enter a link for image" from my computer. can I add one from my pictures?

I will tell you that the Duggars are nice, but upkeep is not top priority on their possessions. The car I bought from Josh was the same way. It broke the day I got it, fortunately he did help get it "fixed" long enough for me to trade it to another dealer.