10 Shraders in Zambia and counting...

[formergothardite]

Those children deserve more than the people who supported John to just "hope" he is taking care of them. That is the problem. It does not appear that any of the IFB cared one little iota about the children. I know one former missionary kid who is no longer speaking to either of his parents because they treated him a lot like John treats his kids, except, at least they got housing and visas planned out before the took the children to a foreign country. Growing up knowing that your parents don't value you enough to provide medical care and would rather get the money for "missionary toys" will mess a person up. And I view John's juice fast, airplane, and Troupie as missionary toys. Things he wanted and he begged and got. He didn't bother to ask for people to provide malaria pills, vaccines, find a doctor for his children, find a midwife. No, he got things that he wanted.

When you discussed why John chose Zambia, you all said because he looked at a map of Africa and that was the safest place. But at the same time you want to argue that it is too dangerous of a place to go with kids.

You seemed to misunderstand what people are saying. Compared to other African countries, Zambia is relatively safe. He isn't going to have to face wars or anything like that. People do vacation there with children, but I bet that they make sure their children are properly vaccinated against any disease that they might come in contact with. It is not safe to take children to live full-time there with no vaccines, no housing plans, no visas, no medical care planned and no medical care planned for a woman who is about to give birth. That is not only not safe, it is foolish. If this is normal behavior in your religious groups I worry about all the children there. To treat their safety and well being so casually is just heartbreaking to me.

Since John mentioned that malaria was one of the things that his kids have a good chance of facing in Zambia I think it is safe to assume he is not going to do much to prevent it Here are some statistics about Zambia and malaria:

Of all people who die from malaria in Zambia, 50 percent or more are children under 5 years of age;

• 50 percent of under-5 hospital admissions are due to malaria;

• Malaria accounts for 20 percent of maternal deaths

Under five-year-old children and pregnant women are the most vulnerable, especially those in more remote and impoverished areas, with 35-50 percent of under-five mortality and 20 percent of maternal mortality attributable to malaria

http://www.unicef.org/zambia/5109_8454.html

[shraderfriend]

Shraderfriend, we are hardly setting the bar very high. A qualified medical professional and facilities with the technology to save her and the baby's life should something go wrong during Esther's pregnancy and birth is not a lot. In fact, it is an expectation in most of the developed world. And by most, I mean all of those except the Shraders and their community, apparently. I don't think you understand that because the Shraders have not looked into proper medical care for her, SHE COULD DIE. If that happens, will you be okay with what you have said here?

Now about the kids? They are going into a foreign country filled with bacteria, diseases, and parasites that their bodies have not been exposed to where they are from. These things can all be deadly without proper immunizations, especially to young children. Heck, even with the proper medical attention and immunizations, they can still die. It is a very real possibility, and I promise you that I am not over-exaggerating here. I have to go now, so I can't address the rest, but yeah.

Yes, she could die. I just dont think you really care. In fact I think you hope it happens to further your agenda of bringing people down who try to trust God. People can and do still die in labor here in the Good Ol' USA in labor. Why dont you all want him and his family to succeed? What is it that you dislike about him so much? I am going to generalize now since it is ok to do so among you all. Since the root of all evil in the world seems to go back to fundies and everything you dislike applies to all of them. But you really dont care what happens to them unless it propels your agenda. In fact it seems as though without these people you would have no purpose in life. You want these people to all stop the insanity and live by your rules but if that happens your mission would die. In a way, you are all evangelistic missionaries with a message you want to proclaim and force all to hear. You want to bully, shame and pressure people in to your way of doing things. Why is it so wrong to hope and pray that things go well, the visas get worked out, Esther has the baby healthy, nobody gets sick, and they are able to have a positive impact on someone in Zambia?

So what, he got a troop carrier, and printing material and has not taken care of the family up to your standards. I hope you judge yourselves, government, businesses and everyone else to the same standards.

I know, your answer is that "fundies" see kids as possessions, like a dog blah blah. I am willing to guess my dog is more well cared for than some of your kids. I personally forked over more than $1,000 for medical bills for my dog last year. My kids go to the doctor probably too much for some of you. I will say we need to work on getting them to a dentist though.

[formergothardite]

All I'm getting from you is that your God is okay with not making plans, spending huge amounts of money on items that might not even be needed, purposely putting children in danger so that you can snap a cool picture, and purposely putting children in danger because planning for their medical care just wasn't a big priority. Am I getting it all correct? Is this what your God stands for?

When it comes to the treatment of children I am okay with doing whatever to make sure children's safety is not treated casually. Are you not? Why? I would think that any sort of a good God would be very angry if his followers purposely put their children in danger all in his name.

Part of being a good parent is that you have to put your children's needs first. You have to do more than just "hope and pray" things work out. You have to make plans to ensure that things work out to the best of your ability. John has had a long time to plan for his children's medical care and housing. He has no excuse. None.

I'm very glad you take care of your dog. I love my pets. They are like family. Glad your children get good medical care. So many fundies and non-fundies just let that go. Good dental care is very important, so I would recommend you get on that.

If John doesn't see his children as disposable possessions, why does he treat their safety like they are? Why doesn't he cherish their safety and well-being?

[formergothardite]

What is it that you dislike about him so much?

I'll answer this. I dislike that he is selfish. I dislike that he takes pictures while driving in dangerous situations. I dislike that he uses God as an excuse to not plan for his family. He doesn't have to do anything, he just expects God to drop it all in his lap and if it goes wrong, well, that is God's fault, not his. I dislike missionaries in general, but especially people like him who offer no real help for the people of Zambia.

Tell, me, what do you like about John when it comes to this mission trip? What do you like about him and how he cares for his wife and children?

By the way, people like John and people like you who make up excuses for his behavior do nothing but cement in my mind that I am so glad I'm no longer an IFB Christian or a Christian at all. Not making up excuses for poor treatment of children and admitting that John has no place as a missionary if he can't care for his children would do more to make me think fond thoughts about my fundamental Christian upbringing. But, no, you have done nothing but made me remember how children were treated in that upbringing. I do not want the love of a God who condones this sort of behavior.

[treehugger]

I have been doing my absolute darndest to stay out of this thread because I can't seem to read too much at a time without wanting to bang my head on a wall. But, as the child of very long-term missionaries (almost 20 years) - who were actually qualified and used their combined degrees in nursing and agriculture to set up a hospital, a nutrition program, and an agriculture program - I have to say something or I will just explode. (*all bolding mine)

1) Why is it okay for John not to have a place to live set up before moving there? This is common for many missionaries or even people who move for business. He has a place for them to stay that must have been set up beforehand with another church family in the area. He is currently seeking more suitable housing. It would not be my preference but I would not say it is wrong.

I have absolutely no idea what caliber of missionary you associated with - but having met hundreds of missionaries in my life, I have never heard of a missionary going somewhere without having pre-arranged housing. Ever. Same with the business people I have met during my travels. No company would think of sending an employee on a business trip without arranging housing, meals, etc. People who travel for business often have very extensive and well-planned itineraries.

2) Why is it okay for John not to have the visas taken care of before moving there? Again, this is not an issue that puts anyone in harm as that seems to be your main complaint about John. It appears he had mis information regarding the visas. I am not a world traveller, I would not know what to need.

This is 2014, not 1814. There are rules and regulations involved with travelling. Anyone who doesn't see the importance of looking into government requirements while planning for an inter-country move has absolutely no business travelling. Anywhere.

In the internet age, there is no excuse for that kind of ignorance. And, as someone who has moved from country to country it is absolutely essential that a person would know the location of closest embassy. John and his family must have had passports. He could have asked at the office about the necessary steps he would need to take to enter a foreign country.

3) Why is it okay for John not to make sure that his pregnant wife has proper medical care lined up before moving there, when she has had complications in labor in the past? What would be proper medical care in your opinion, a midwife, hospital or what? I am not a midwife fan myself, and we have only done hospital births with my children. I am not sure what you would want lined up. I know nothing about Zambia or the hospitals that are available. There is no sure way to prevent issues that may occur even in a hospital.

Proper medical care is someone (doctor/midwife, honestly, I don't think anyone really cares) who can provide medical care and check-ups. As a pregnant woman myself right now who just moved from one province to another, I cannot wrap my head around the idea that someone would be so foolish as to move from one country to another without thinking of prenatal checkups and making sure that I had somewhere to go in case of an emergency. If there is nothing available in Zambia as far that goes, that John should have waited until after the arrival of the baby (and during his wait researched medical facilities in Zambia, so that his children will not be left without medical care. Again, this is 2014.

4) Why is it okay for John to not make sure his children have all the proper vaccinations? Again, what is proper in your opinion. I am not sure what his view of vaccines is. Every child reacts differently to vaccines, I know mine do. We vaccinate ours and sometimes are selective about a few. But I would vaccinate for likely things that are prevelant in other lands if going there. Doesnt mean I am right.

Vaccinations should be non-negotiable - especially in overseas travel. I hate being so blunt, but, like I said, I was a missionary kid. I saw kids my own age paralized by polio. I saw people with tuberculosis dying agonizing deaths while coughing up their lungs. I absolutely do not think vaccines are an option when it comes to travel.

5) Why is it okay for John to spend lots of money on a plane, flying lessons, a troupie, an industrial paper cutter, and fruit for a juice fast, but not on keeping a roof over his children's heads (while they were still in the US)? That is what the money was for. The plane was given to him, and other monies I am sure were designated for specific items in many cases. To use it otherwise would be dishonest. He has chosen to live frugally in order to get them to Zambia faster as well as help other missionaries that are already there. Hi family has had a place to sleep and food and clothing the entire way. It is just not what you would consider good enough.

I have known a lot of missionaries. The really good ones don't ask their donors for unnecessary items. As John has no discernible skills that would make him invaluable in the mission field that I know of - the plane, the troupie and the paper cutter would probably count as unnecessary. Then again, I have no respect for a mission board that doesn't properly vet and train their missionaries either. And I have no idea why people would donate to a missionary who doesn't have a crystal clear plan and mission statement. Sorry, I have personally known way too many grifter missionaries - and while they irritate me to no end, even they had a better plan than the Shraders.

6) Why is it okay for John to say his children might not have too many birthdays, because they might die in Zambia? No. not in my opinion.

Finally, something on which we can both agree. Nope. Not okay at all

[formergothardite]

I nominate "grifter missionary" as a new user title.

[SisiL78]

Coming out of a long time without commenting.....

Shraderfriend, I assume you are one of the suckers who gave John money for his mission and now feel the need to justify yourself. Fine, go for it.

Here's my biggest beef with John and Esther, they are dragging their children into this mess. How can Esther possibly homeschool all those children in a pop up camper? I'm thinking that they have gotten nearly no schooling in years, which will leave them unable to care for themselves once they reach adulthood. I wonder if the oldest children can even read. How can children thrive when they spent two years constantly in the car driving from one place to the next. John, on FB, even joked that the kids were crying about yet another car trip. He thought it was funny. Even the cut rate midwife that Esther got with her last was only there for her because it was free. John posted pictures of omelets and juice fasts during the time she spent 11 days in labor. No hospitals or doctors were called.

And how dare you insult the way we all take care of our children? Ours have warm beds in warm homes, they are educated and well fed. We do not beat our children like so many fundies brag they do. We love them and give them opportunities for growth in life, instead of purposely limiting their options in life and subjecting them to cult brainwashing.

No one here wants those kids to die, nor for Esther to perish. You claiming that is disgusting. It is John, in a video that is linked in this thread, that made light of children not having a birthday. It is John who is throwing caution to the wind regarding malaria medications (they have to be started long before the trip and continued during the entirety of the trip. Malaria is VERY deadly). It takes about five minutes on Google to get all the information you need on Malaria and how to be safe about it. "not knowing" is not an excuse. I also googled real estate agents and visa requirements for Zambia. Again, within minutes I had tons of information about visas and how an American can find an apartment in Zambia. John just can't be bothered. He's intellectually lazy.

Also, as for him working for a long time. Bull to the sh*t again. His facebook listed him as selling cars for about 2 years, and before that some sort of part time pastor job. He has mentioned that other people helped fund his life beforehand. Then he started a windowashing business, except that it never had a website or contact information (so I doubt it existed). He's been grifting for a long time. He's lazy in terms of having a 9 to 5 job and taking orders from other people. He's lazy in terms of doing something he doesn't personally find interesting and isn't contributing to his sense of superiority and entitlement. This missionary thing is his latest way of avoiding real life and his wife and children are just pawns in his little game.

[shraderfriend]

We do not beat our children like so many fundies brag they do. We love them and give them opportunities for growth in life, instead of purposely limiting their options in life and subjecting them to cult brainwashing.

I cannot argue with you there among some fringe IFBs. But it is hardly the norm. I have often been criticized for not "disciplining" either enough or correctly. Also that my 6 yr old is could put me out of the ministry. I do hate how many look at little kids and make those comments and not at the grown ones to see how they actually turned out. many of the ones I know that give out their Pearl or Maxwell books have a batting average 1 out of 4 or so actually turning out to be decent people much less good christian folks. My unsaved parents did better than that. Again with the generalizing and assumptions about IFB's limiting their childrens options and now cult brainwashing :pink-shock:

Where do you get this stuff. Oh yeah, because you were either in a family that did that or knew a family that was like that. So you toss everyone in the group because your parents apparently would not think for themselves and followed bad teaching. You should take it up with them and not label others that you dont know.

Shraderfriend, I assume you are one of the suckers who gave John money for his mission and now feel the need to justify yourself. Fine, go for it.

Uh, wrong. again with the assumptions :lol:

Here's my biggest beef with John and Esther, they are dragging their children into this mess. How can Esther possibly homeschool all those children in a pop up camper? I'm thinking that they have gotten nearly no schooling in years, which will leave them unable to care for themselves once they reach adulthood. I wonder if the oldest children can even read. How can children thrive when they spent two years constantly in the car driving from one place to the next.

So your biggest beef, meaning the thing that has you so ticked off is that you are "thinking" and "wonder" something as opposed to knowing something? I suggest you go out and obtain some knowledge then feel free to pass judgment. Again, you base your believe on thinking something base on assumptions you have because of some experience you have had in the past with a fundie. Well that is quite convincing.

Is there anything else you can assume about fundies? I bet you all think you know so much about me, my political affiliation, my view on the 2nd Amendment perhaps? give it a shot. What do you know about me? or i mean assume.

[formergothardite]

In almost 40 years I have never heard of a missionary dragging their family to a country with no housing already set up.

~Have you read the Poisonwood Bible?

~If Esther decided to get a full time job and put the children in public school, John would agree with this since you have claimed he doesn't believe public school is a sin? Are the daughters being raised to know that they do not have to homeschool and that public school is a perfectly good option?

~Has John planned for medical care for his children in Zambia? Does he have a doctor lined up for them? A dentist? Does he have a plan for if something bad happens to them. If you do not know, why did no one ask about this before supporting him? Do not answer that it is normal to neglect your children this way and no big deal. If this is normal in your circles then it really reflects poorly on your values. All the people I know who even moved towns found doctors for their kids before they moved. Moving countries, hell yes they would have found these things out.

~How is it treating children as if they are precious gifts from God to put them in very real danger just so John can snap a picture while speeding down a highway in bad weather?

~If you can't say how this is treating them as they are precious, then why exactly are you supporting the ministry of a man who treats his children's lives with such carelessness?

~It is impossible for these children to have received a good education with the constant travel, the living in pop-up campers, living in church basements, and a mother who has suffered difficult pregnancies. Does this not concern you?

~Did anyone at all at anytime(besides us)show any concern about how this missionary lifestyle will impact the children?

~At anytime was he asked to prove that this move to Zambia was in the best interest of his children? If not, why? This is a voluntary move that he was asking people to finance. Why would no one look into what is best for his children?

~How do you think the people in Zambia would feel if they found out he mocked them and acted like they were grass wearing cannibals. And then bragged about how the very real starvation that some face there are going to help him lose some weight? Why did no one call him out on these instances? Why was he not asked to publically apologize for treating the people of Zambia in such a way?

*I would also like to point out that this isn't a sudden move. John has had several years to research and find doctors/dentists for his children. He has known since the beginning of the pregnancy that Esther would need at least a midwife. He has known for a long time that he needed to have a permanent place for his family to live. He has no excuse.

Would you attempt to answer these. If your God is not one who is okay with the safety of children being treated casually, then you should have no problem proving that John has not treated his children's safety casually. And if he is actually treating his children that way, then why is he qualified to serve as a missionary?

[SPHASH]

I don't have children, never plan on having any and I think the way John has raised his children is appalling. Living in a pop up camper, moving from one place to another, little to no education, complete disregard for their safety, health, and well-being. I said this before but even Susanna Keller and her daughter are in a better situation. I'm not saying being a single mom is ideal, but they have a roof over their heads and a good support system in Rebekah and Josh McDonald.

[shraderfriend]

And how dare you insult the way we all take care of our children?

I forgot this one. How dare I do what you all have been doing throughout this site? Really?? The disdain should be aimed that the wonderful loving person who said that people are treating their kids like a dog. I am glad I am not their dog, if they obviously dont value a pet and find it disposable as they were saying.

But now back to you with such high standards and all knowing attitude of all things right or wrong. You prove my point, how dare anyone even suggest your kids are not the most well cared for kids on the planet. Because of course you are the one we should all look to for a parenting role model. I think since all you do in life is so awe inspiring and perfect that you should write a book for us to glean from your wonderful parenting advice. I am ever so sorry to have offended your sensitive pride. Please look in the mirror when you post such stupid comments, oh wait, since you posted it it came from the heart of what you really believe. HYPOCRITE.

I suppose it is only good when you insult others. so be it.

[formergothardite]

I cannot argue with you there among some fringe IFBs. But it is hardly the norm. I have often been criticized for not "disciplining" either enough or correctly. Also that my 6 yr old is could put me out of the ministry. I do hate how many look at little kids and make those comments and not at the grown ones to see how they actually turned out. many of the ones I know that give out their Pearl or Maxwell books have a batting average 1 out of 4 or so actually turning out to be decent people much less good christian folks. My unsaved parents did better than that. Again with the generalizing and assumptions about IFB's limiting their childrens options and now cult brainwashing :pink-shock:

Where do you get this stuff. Oh yeah, because you were either in a family that did that or knew a family that was like that. So you toss everyone in the group because your parents apparently would not think for themselves and followed bad teaching. You should take it up with them and not label others that you dont know.

Uh, wrong. again with the assumptions :lol:

So your biggest beef, meaning the thing that has you so ticked off is that you are "thinking" and "wonder" something as opposed to knowing something? I suggest you go out and obtain some knowledge then feel free to pass judgment. Again, you base your believe on thinking something base on assumptions you have because of some experience you have had in the past with a fundie. Well that is quite convincing.

Is there anything else you can assume about fundies? I bet you all think you know so much about me, my political affiliation, my view on the 2nd Amendment perhaps? give it a shot. What do you know about me? or i mean assume.

I will take one guess about you. I bet you have spent more time thinking about the "evils" of gay marriage than you have about the safety and well being of John's children. Now you can come and tell me that IFB are liberal pro-gay marriage churches. Most fundies are rabidly against gay marriage. But perhaps you are one who isn't? Surely you wouldn't think to protest the marriage of a gay couple who is providing a stable home for their children all while supporting John who hasn't even provided medical care for his wife?

I don't need to wonder or guess. Children can't thrive and learn in the environment John and Esther have provided for their children's education. It isn't possible. They can survive, but they can't thrive and some will just get passed over.

[formergothardite]

I forgot this one. How dare I do what you all have been doing throughout this site? Really?? The disdain should be aimed that the wonderful loving person who said that people are treating their kids like a dog. I am glad I am not there dog, if they obviously dont value a pet and find it disposable as they were saying.

But now back to you with such high standards and all knowing attitude of all things right or wrong. You prove my point, how dare anyone even suggest your kids are not the most well cared for kids on the planet. Because of course you are the one we should all look to for a parenting role model. I think since all you do in life is so awe inspiring and perfect that you should write a book for us to glean from your wonderful parenting advice. I am ever so sorry to have offended your sensitive pride. Please look in the mirror when you post such stupid comments, oh wait, since you posted it it came from the heart of what you really believe. HYPOCRITE.

I suppose it is only good when you insult others. so be it.

What do you know about my parenting? What do you know about my children? If you know nothing then how can you judge my parenting? You can't. You were speaking from anger, trying to find some way to be hurtful and insult us.

Who said they treat their children like a dog? I missed that. I did say that my dogs were like children. As we treat them like family, they get the best of care, just like my kids.

Honest question, do you think your posts here are more likely to drive people from Christ or likely to draw them to Christ? I mean, I was raised IFB I live the Bible Belt. I know the lingo. You are supposed to be a light on the hill for Christ, but instead you are trying your hardest to insult and anger people and defending a man who put his children in danger over and over so he can snap some cool pictures while he was driving. Think about that for a moment. Really think about it. Is this really the witness you want to leave here?

[shraderfriend]

I will take one guess about you. I bet you have spent more time thinking about the "evils" of gay marriage than you have about the safety and well being of John's children.

Haha, I thank you for that one. I wasn't expecting that. I cannot remmeber the last time the issue of gay marriage crossed my mind. Why think about what you cant stop. No I have never protested gay marriage. I do believe that marriage is between a man and a woman and the funny thing is, my gay co-workers and friends have always agreed. Remember I am from California, I am not one who runs in fear from things that are not what I believe. And I dont hate any group of people, there is no purpose and nothing is gained except maybe popularity among those who do.

[formergothardite]

Haha, I thank you for that one. I wasn't expecting that. I cannot remmeber the last time the issue of gay marriage crossed my mind. Why think about what you cant stop. No I have never protested gay marriage. I do believe that marriage is between a man and a woman and the funny thing is, my gay co-workers and friends have always agreed. Remember I am from California, I am not one who runs in fear from things that are not what I believe. And I dont hate any group of people, there is no purpose and nothing is gained except maybe popularity among those who do.

I'm in the Bible Belt all the fundamental Christians do here if flip out about gay people getting married. If you have voted against legalizing gay marriage, then you have protested it.

[shraderfriend]

What do you know about my parenting? What do you know about my children? If you know nothing then how can you judge my parenting? You can't. You were speaking from anger, trying to find some way to be hurtful and insult us. Who said they treat their children like a dog? I missed that. I did say that my dogs were like children. As we treat them like family, they get the best of care, just like my kids. Honest question, do you think your posts here are more likely to drive people from Christ or likely to draw them to Christ?

You are correct, you were did mention that you treat your dog well. It was in response to a post someone made about how fundies or ifbs see kids as disposable, similar to a dog. So, I decided to respond in a similar manner by generalizing and lump you all together as having such a low opinion of dogs. Many of you think you know everything about everyone who homeschools and throw out blanket statements when you all know very little about us specifically. The 3 questions you asked in this post, I can ask you and the answer is the same. You can't. But when I do, people are hurt and offended. But people here do not care because of course fundies have no heart, right? Say whatever you want about them. I have been called a liar about my posts because someone feels I am lying, yet it is all true. It has been assumed I am a selfish dad because people are not able to separate what they feel about John from someone who is friends with John. I can't be selfish, I have a dog. I don't want a dog, but my kids love that animal and I have spent a lot of money to keep it healthy because they love it. I love TV, in fact if I had tv in my home I would neglect my kids. We stopped TV with our first child as a baby because of time and money not religous beliefs. I gave up my favorite past times of sports, not for God, but for my kids. We decided to home school because we couldnt imagine sending our kids away all day. So we decided it was best for my wife to stay home and not chase money and dreams. All these choices were made before we were in church. Yes I was saved, but was not a church guy until later. Making these decisions meant more time with our little people. We got in to church a little later and these decisions also meant time for God that I never had before. I am glad we have homeschooled, because I have seen my kids more than if they were gone during they day because of some jobs I have had over the years. I have spent about 12 years of my life in jobs I hate, driving in trucks that are 140 degrees in the cab in the summer 50-60 hrs a week for my family. I did it because the pay was decent and insurance was great. It was not because that was my dream job. I left that job several times to try other things, but when it has come down to it, I have gone back. When my kids are grown, my cdl is going out the window. Would I love to be pastoring a church again and not have to do that, yes. But not at the expense of my kids or wife. I have been offered full time pastor jobs including house, utilities and full insurance. People thought I was nuts for saying no, but I knew that it was not the right place for my family. The guy who went there is happy there, and i am happy for him. He is willing to allow the church to tell him how to train a his kids and set the expectations for them. I am not.

Yes, I think my posts can bring people closer to Christ. Because people want real people that are not full of balogna. People who have already made their decision about something are rarely persuaded anyway. So no, I cannot pursuade them. Those who are on the fence or not sure what they believe can be moved by honest people who do not always do things right. Ask my wife, I am a lousy leader and mess up a lot. But I try my best at everything and care. I fail much more than I succeed in life but It is not about me. So why not keep trying?

[shraderfriend]

I dont remember ever voting on it. Although I would vote that it is for man and woman so it would be a protest I suppose.

I dont really vote much, i am not really a "patriotic" christian. I would have been a loyalist to the king in the colonial days. I am also non-resistant, so I don't own guns or ever held one. I do believe the 2nd ammendment does protect that right, I just choose not to exercise that particular right. People always say that Peter used self defense in chopping the ear off of the guy that came for Christ. My response has always been, but it took a miracle by Jesus to put that ear back together. I don't want to do anything that requires a miracle from Jesus to make right. Dont get me wrong, I dont want to die at the hands of a criminal so I would try to get away, but I would rather have him kill me and go to heaven than kill him not knowing if he is saved. He would have a better chance behind bars that in the grave to get right with God.

[formergothardite]

There are plenty of fundamental Christians here. ;) Lots of not-fundamental Christians. I haven't seen any defend John or how he treats his children. This has nothing to do with his Christianity. If I posted that I was doing the things John is doing I would get torn to shreds and run off the board. That is how precious people around here view children. There are homeshoolers here (lots and lots of homeschoolers), so this isn't about us hating all homeschooler or about hating all fundamental Christians.

But what we are seeing here is that you are full of baloney at least when it comes to defending John. At least that is how you come off when it comes to John. You made sacrifices to better be able to provide a quality life for your children. That is something admirable and that is what good parents do. John has crammed his children in a pop-up camper, disrupted their lives for his dreams, spent massive amounts of money buying things for himself, not planned at all for his children's housing or medical care, didn't plan at all for his wife's medical care, has put his children in danger over and over just so he could take a picture while driving and you, in all honesty are saying that according to your God this man is qualified to be a missionary? If in all honesty your God is a God that is okay with children being treated this way, then you won't even convert the fence sitters here. Children are valued very highly here.

[BravaAmica]

I forgot this one. How dare I do what you all have been doing throughout this site? Really?? The disdain should be aimed that the wonderful loving person who said that people are treating their kids like a dog. I am glad I am not their dog, if they obviously dont value a pet and find it disposable as they were saying.

Yes, it would suck and blow to be Shrader's dog, wouldn't it?

[formergothardite]

I dont remember ever voting on it. Although I would vote that it is for man and woman so it would be a protest I suppose.

I dont really vote much, i am not really a "patriotic" christian. I would have been a loyalist to the king in the colonial days. I am also non-resistant, so I don't own guns or ever held one. I do believe the 2nd ammendment does protect that right, I just choose not to exercise that particular right. People always say that Peter used self defense in chopping the ear off of the guy that came for Christ. My response has always been, but it took a miracle by Jesus to put that ear back together. I don't want to do anything that requires a miracle from Jesus to make right. Dont get me wrong, I dont want to die at the hands of a criminal so I would try to get away, but I would rather have him kill me and go to heaven than kill him not knowing if he is saved. He would have a better chance behind bars that in the grave to get right with God.

I find this much more in line with Christ's teaching than the rabid gun fanatics who can't wait to shoot someone. You have to realize that we have had fundamental Christians come here and say that they would literally pick up a stone and stone our gay members if they could. We have dealt with fundamental Christians where the parents spent all day taking turns beating the children. We have seen babies die because the fundamental Christian father wouldn't get proper medical care for the pregnant wife. And that is just what we have seen on the internet, there is mountains more of these sorts of stories that members here experienced in real life.

So can you not see that with this sort of background why none of us think John, who treats his children's safety so carelessly, is qualified to show people God's love? He hasn't demonstrated a desire to put his children's needs first and even in the Bible a man who doesn't care for his children is worse than an infidel. And if he succeeds in Zambia, I worry about what will become of the children. I worry that he will continue to treat their safety like he did in America and I have seen no sign that he might actually start caring more for them.

[BravaAmica]

shraderfriend what do Esther's parents think of her living in a pop up camper for years, having grandchildren that went hungry and uneducated for years, while their son-in-law refused to take a day job to support his family? What do they think of their daughter going off to Zambia with this man? Do they care, at all, about her? Or do they now view Esther as John's wife, so she's no longer their problem?

Because I tell you what, my parents would swoop in like raptors and rescue me and my children if my spouse ever started acting like John Shrader. They'd never permit one of their family members to live in squalor, in hunger and in pain, simply because the spouse-in-law refused to get his/her shit together. In case you're wondering, the way that the Keller's ignore their daughter's and grandchildren's suffering cements my opinion that IFB families see their children as disposable.

[RosyDaisy]

COC is Pentecostal, right? Wasn't John super rude to the Pentecostal pastors he met in Burundi? And this was after they had been very polite to him?

No, the Church of Christ and the Pentecostal Church are 2 very different denominations. Pentecostals IMO are more fundie than the CoC. Anyway, just wanted to clear that up.

[BMGO_4]

I'm officially dicusted. How the hell could anyone with a child not say to them leave your kids at home.. It seems from my creeping that his fathers church and affiliate church's are funding this lunacy. I stumbled upon this on the Pickles and Hairspray page.. Can anyone confirm or (I'm hoping) deny it -truthfully? I quite frankly don't care what religion they are. They should have been reported I CPS before this. And God forbid anything happens to those kids/infants the responsibility will be on all who knew the situation closely and did nothing to stop it.

[thoughtful]

Shraderfriend:

The person being discussed here is John Shrader. Your parenting, FJers' parenting, and the parenting of every other Christian on the planet is moot.

And so I ask again, since I never got an answer: how can you support a parent who is not taking care of his children, and is even endangering them?

You started here with a few posts that sounded like you thought this was a John Shrader fan club, :shock: then hunkered down to defend him. You've wandered off into telling stories about your life, bitching about Josh Duggar, and raging at us, rather than facing up to the possibility that you are supportive of a man who is a danger to his family.

BTW, whatever else is said on FJ, I have to say that it is one of the most pro-child places I have ever seen on the Internet. Most of the outrage and anger here is directed at people who hurt, neglect, terrorize and/or under-educate children.

I can't speak for 7000 people, but I would be willing to guess that nobody here would gloat if something bad happened to Esther or any of the children -- I imagine we'd all be horrified, and even angrier at John.

BTW, here's my post that you ignored, if you'd like another look at it.

Shraderfriend:

We were not claiming that Josh and/or David are paragons of virtue – the point was that, as bad as they are, even they have provided housing for their children. So your long harangue about Josh’s house, true or not, is moot.

Nice to know you wouldn’t have children ride in dangerous situations – neither would I, but neither of us is the subject of this thread. You haven’t answered why you still think a man who would endanger his children, in addition to not providing for them, deserves your support.

I have no idea why you told your life story – it has nothing to do with what we are discussing. Were you trying to say you turned out just fine despite being poor, and/or that Jesus was the answer to all of your ills? Was that supposed to imply that John’s kids will be OK because Jesus?

I have to point out that this quote:

sure does sound like you are admitting that putting the ministry before your family is a bad thing. So why defend John?

John was raised in the Gothard cult, and, from what I understand, has gone off in his own direction – correct me if I’m wrong about either. Posters here are not entangled in all of that, and some don’t know the lingo, so the fine distinction of whether debt is a “sin†or, as you put it, “a form of bondage that is good to avoid†may be meaningless to them. The point is that John was probably raised to believe debt is bad.

Same with not homeschooling, women choosing their own husbands, and women working – whether these things were discouraged, disdained, taught against, forbidden, whatever, doesn’t matter. It’s a big part of the culture to which John belonged, and from which he still seems to draw many of his ideas, to not do those things.

These facts were pointed out for various reasons, to make several points. You ignored the points being made to discuss the minutiae. You managed to get two more paragraphs out of angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin distinctions, to make it look like you were really answering something.

If your compliments to us were sincere, then discuss and debate honestly. Address the issue you have not yet addressed – how can anyone support a parent (especially a parent who has many children, which has to add to what is needed, financially, emotionally, and educationally) who is not taking care of his children, and is even endangering them?

[16strong]

Yes, she could die. I just dont think you really care. In fact I think you hope it happens to further your agenda of bringing people down who try to trust God. People can and do still die in labor here in the Good Ol' USA in labor. Why dont you all want him and his family to succeed? What is it that you dislike about him so much? I am going to generalize now since it is ok to do so among you all. Since the root of all evil in the world seems to go back to fundies and everything you dislike applies to all of them. But you really dont care what happens to them unless it propels your agenda. In fact it seems as though without these people you would have no purpose in life. You want these people to all stop the insanity and live by your rules but if that happens your mission would die. In a way, you are all evangelistic missionaries with a message you want to proclaim and force all to hear. You want to bully, shame and pressure people in to your way of doing things. Why is it so wrong to hope and pray that things go well, the visas get worked out, Esther has the baby healthy, nobody gets sick, and they are able to have a positive impact on someone in Zambia?

So what, he got a troop carrier, and printing material and has not taken care of the family up to your standards. I hope you judge yourselves, government, businesses and everyone else to the same standards.

I know, your answer is that "fundies" see kids as possessions, like a dog blah blah. I am willing to guess my dog is more well cared for than some of your kids. I personally forked over more than $1,000 for medical bills for my dog last year. My kids go to the doctor probably too much for some of you. I will say we need to work on getting them to a dentist though.

1. Yes, she could die here in the U.S., but her risk of dying in the U.S. as opposed to a less developed country is far less. You seem not to be taking this into account. Just because she CAN die in the U.S., doesn't mean that the risk isn't greatly lessened.

2. I really, truly care, please make no mistake. That is why most of us FJers are here talking about this. I am no exception. I may be young and childless, but that does not mean that I care any less than anyone else here. That is quite the arrow you have sent to wound me and I refuse to take the hit. It is petty.

3. I am not attacking Christianity. I made no such mention of anything relating to it. In fact, I mostly try to stay away from religious arguments. I am merely speaking of the practicalities here: Food/shelter/healthcare. That is all. It does not matter what religion you or the Shraders belong to (or me for that matter). The issue here is that Esther and the children are being improperly provided for.

4. I have no agenda other than to make the lack of provisions for women and children made known to those that could help. I may not be able to assist the Shraders, but you are a friend of theirs, and you most certainly have the ability to voice any misgivings (Which at this moment, you seem to have none).

5. It is not a matter of them succeeding in their missions or not. It is a matter of John prioritizing his family's well-being. They can succeed in missions right here in the U.S. without jeopardizing anyone's health. You cannot tell me that there are not people in need in the U.S. There are, and plenty of them.

6. Your bragging about how much you spent on your dog is petty. Especially as your whole object in sharing that tidbit is to put me down. Ephesians 4:29.

7. No, the mission of FJers is not to conform anyone to our "ways." Perhaps you have not read around enough, but we have many members from many countries, backgrounds, and religions. To pin down a clear mission other than "Free Jinger," would be nearly impossible, as many would disagree no matter what the mission statement might be.

8. You still seem to think that our standards are high. They are not. In fact, they are merely standard expectations for anyone across the globe. Housing, healthcare, and food. I am not saying they need a mansion, or 10 cars, or caviar on their plates. That would be ridiculous. I am merely arguing for a stable and secure environment for those children, where they do not have to worry (nearly as much) about dying due to foreign diseases, or where their next meal is coming from, or if their mother will be alive tomorrow, or if they will have a roof to protect them from the elements. These things are all so important, regardless of one's religion.