The Continuing Fall of VF and Doug Phillips is a tool-Part 4

[ILoveJellybeans]

"The twinkle of wonder is all around me"

Doug is just so overdramatic that it is hilarious :D

[zandria]

"The twinkle of wonder is all around me"

I know, huh? Poor Beall. That video paints a pretty vivid picture.

[DomWackTroll]

"The twinkle of wonder is all around me"

"The wonder of twinks is all around me."

Fixed that for you, Doug.

[artschooldropout]

I get the feeling Dougie (TOOL!) might really enjoy this

http://jezebel.com/dinosaur-erotica-exi ... 1438081697

[Palimpsest]

Doug Phillips is not just a tool, but a freak as well! :D Best Doug video EVER!

Seeing this makes me kind of sad. Waste angers me and I can't help feeling he wasted his talent. I really wonder if religion and self-loathing didn't play such a big role in his life, where would he be right now? A professor at some liberal arts college? The entertainment industry? (Say what you want, but it seems that film and the arts are his real passion.) I can't help wondering if he'd be happier and have a more positive effect on the people in his life.

I have this small hope that people can change in spite of themselves. Assuming no minors were ever abused by him directly, I hope he can get his act together and truly do something positive with his life. How easy could it have been, just playing devil's advocate here, for Doug to have gotten a career in fashion, Hollywood, Broadway, or in music with a dad like Howard Phillips? Well, Douggie's long been an adult. I hope he can re-channel his talents for good. TW (Epstein) and Jen really need to find a good therapist. I'm not saying the don't have legitimate complaints, but the level of revenge and obsession they're showing and who they're willing to harm to reach their goals is counterproductive and just plain nasty.

I don't understand why he didn't simply become a litigator once he had his J.D. Good litigators are almost invariably excellent actors. I suppose he saw more $$$ and power over others in running his own "Church" with a business on the side. Any return to law will be difficult now with suspicions of financial mismanagement hanging over him.

ITA on Jen and TW. The obsessive and sleazy way they are going about their campaign to bring down Doug is making me almost (almost!) have sympathy for the Tool. :pink-shock:

[TaylorMaid]

Hi all,

De-lurking here to say that I'm pretty surprised by the reactions here to Jen's post. As soon as I read it I headed over to see what everyone thought of the "bombshell".

I've seen three major arguments used to dismiss it, and I think they are to some extent flawed. The first kind of boils down to "it's not that big of a deal, Jen and TW are just angry and obsessive". I can see why the allegations don't seem like much to people on the outside, but I think within the context the story is important because it explains the exodus of a significant number of families from Doug-the-tool's church/cult/controlled environment. It's not the sort of bombshell I was hoping for, but from a perspective within the movement, it really is huge. The hypocrisy he displayed was enough to drive people away, even before his "affair" was publicly revealed. This asshat has attacked/excommunicated women merely for disagreeing with him or wearing clothes that don't fit his ideals of modesty. A woman in their church was flagrantly "immodest"- she’s seriously HOT in that photo, I've never seen anyone in that crowd dressed like that, and while I think it's awesome, I'm gobsmacked that he would "allow" it. And according to the reports, her behavior was entirely out of the range of what they consider appropriate. The fact that he didn’t send her packing is significant, though of what we don’t yet know (and may never, despite Jen’s heavy hinting).

I don’t understand the hostility towards Jen on this. I know she’s angry and hyper focused in her writing, but so what? I’ve only read her blog on and off- does she have a history of lying that justifies dismissing the story? Yes, there is a level of speculation in the post, but certainly not any more than what happens here all the time. Is there any evidence that TW is the ex-husband?

Another complaint I see about the post is the undeniable slut shaming within. It’s nasty and I hate the use of “cougarâ€, though I’m also a little uncomfortable with calling JG “The Pretty Womanâ€, considering the movie reference- are we calling her a hooker, or trying to go meta with it? The problem is, an allegation isn’t necessarily untrue simply because it is phrased despicably.

That leads to the final argument- the allegations are irrelevant because the person caught en flagrante with her was 18, and so what if she was hitting on men. The age of consent part is valid, though I have seen very good arguments made that even though Hero was of age, young women in that culture are groomed to be prime victims and have little concept of/ability to consent. A similar argument could be made towards the young man. While their boys upbringing is radically different than the girls, and doesn’t groom them to subservience, I also doubt that they are taught to navigate sexual encounters in any mature fashion. But I see his age of consent being used to ignore the rest of the narrative- the sexual harassment of others. The story specifically cites that- unwanted advances by JG. Because they were allegedly accepted by some in the community, that doesn’t excuse that others weren’t. Families went to Doug (who they consider the arbiter of behavior) and asked him to stop the harassment. They were shot down and told to shut up. If you flip the genders in this story, I think it becomes clear that the situation was problematic and hostile. It reminds me of a lot of the IFB scandals. I have mixed feelings about outing her publicly, especially with TW remaining pseudonymous while accusing her by name, but if this story were being told about a man in the church, I think some people would be demanding to know who it was in order to warn/protect others.

Sorry for the rambling, but I think this could be important, if not to outsiders, than to those struggling within the movement. Jen claims that the more information comes to light, the more people are coming to her with similar stories. While it may not leave much to snark on, it does seem to increase schisms, and to someone like me who wants to see the patriarchy movement stopped, it’s good news.

[MamaJunebug]

Hi all,

De-lurking here to say that I'm pretty surprised by the reactions here to Jen's post. As soon as I read it I headed over to see what everyone thought of the "bombshell".

I've seen three major arguments used to dismiss it, and I think they are to some extent flawed. The first kind of boils down to "it's not that big of a deal, Jen and TW are just angry and obsessive". I can see why the allegations don't seem like much to people on the outside, but I think within the context the story is important because it explains the exodus of a significant number of families from Doug-the-tool's church/cult/controlled environment. It's not the sort of bombshell I was hoping for, but from a perspective within the movement, it really is huge. The hypocrisy he displayed was enough to drive people away, even before his "affair" was publicly revealed. This asshat has attacked/excommunicated women merely for disagreeing with him or wearing clothes that don't fit his ideals of modesty. A woman in their church was flagrantly "immodest"- she’s seriously HOT in that photo, I've never seen anyone in that crowd dressed like that, and while I think it's awesome, I'm gobsmacked that he would "allow" it. And according to the reports, her behavior was entirely out of the range of what they consider appropriate. The fact that he didn’t send her packing is significant, though of what we don’t yet know (and may never, despite Jen’s heavy hinting).

I don’t understand the hostility towards Jen on this. I know she’s angry and hyper focused in her writing, but so what? I’ve only read her blog on and off- does she have a history of lying that justifies dismissing the story? Yes, there is a level of speculation in the post, but certainly not any more than what happens here all the time. Is there any evidence that TW is the ex-husband?

Another complaint I see about the post is the undeniable slut shaming within. It’s nasty and I hate the use of “cougarâ€, though I’m also a little uncomfortable with calling JG “The Pretty Womanâ€, considering the movie reference- are we calling her a hooker, or trying to go meta with it? The problem is, an allegation isn’t necessarily untrue simply because it is phrased despicably.

That leads to the final argument- the allegations are irrelevant because the person caught en flagrante with her was 18, and so what if she was hitting on men. The age of consent part is valid, though I have seen very good arguments made that even though Hero was of age, young women in that culture are groomed to be prime victims and have little concept of/ability to consent. A similar argument could be made towards the young man. While their boys upbringing is radically different than the girls, and doesn’t groom them to subservience, I also doubt that they are taught to navigate sexual encounters in any mature fashion. But I see his age of consent being used to ignore the rest of the narrative- the sexual harassment of others. The story specifically cites that- unwanted advances by JG. Because they were allegedly accepted by some in the community, that doesn’t excuse that others weren’t. Families went to Doug (who they consider the arbiter of behavior) and asked him to stop the harassment. They were shot down and told to shut up. If you flip the genders in this story, I think it becomes clear that the situation was problematic and hostile. It reminds me of a lot of the IFB scandals. I have mixed feelings about outing her publicly, especially with TW remaining pseudonymous while accusing her by name, but if this story were being told about a man in the church, I think some people would be demanding to know who it was in order to warn/protect others.

Sorry for the rambling, but I think this could be important, if not to outsiders, than to those struggling within the movement. Jen claims that the more information comes to light, the more people are coming to her with similar stories. While it may not leave much to snark on, it does seem to increase schisms, and to someone like me who wants to see the patriarchy movement stopped, it’s good news.

Brava, TaylorMaid!

You make perfect sense.

If I ever said any of the things you refute, I take 'em back now!

[RosyDaisy]

Doug Phillip$ is rather... unique in his demeanour...

http://vimeo.com/59747748 < At 01.30 he makes a sound that will haunt my dreams forever (he orgasms on stage and no one calls him out). I wonder how many people snickered in the audience or did it go completely over their heads?

Why did he need to make THAT sound to show his enthusiasm about dinosaur music? :pink-shock:

Doug Philliip$ is a tool

WTF....really...WTF was that? That was....ummm...well...I don't know WTH that was. It made my cat have hissy fit. I'm not even joking. He's batshit crazy, and looks like he's high as a kite. He doesn't ping my gaydar. So not only is Doug isn't just a tool. He's a crazy ass tool!

[thoughtful]

"The twinkle of wonder is all around me"

Yet another potential post count title.

[Full enough quiver]

I think the difference between the Doug Phillips/Hero situation and the JG/young man situation is the power imbalance. Both Hero and the young man were over 18, so legally, they aren't victims. But, assuming Hero is the nanny, that power imbalance throws doubt on whether or not she consented. JG's behavior may have been immodest, but the tool's behavior was predatory. When you add in the hypocrisy of The tool parading his family around as the model of the perfect Christian family, that makes it even worse.

[Palimpsest]

You make some excellent points. I'm glad you delurked. :D

I'll admit that TW Eston drives me up the wall, and that I have been playing devil's advocate a lot here with his posts on JensGems. There is something about the patronizing way he writes, his bold assertions, his assertions of speculation as fact, his glee at the downfall of BCA, and his scandalmongering that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. To add to that, I think Jen and "TW" are not necessarily trusted within the Boerne community and would not be the first people to whom "insiders" would confide. They hit my "hinky meter."

That said, I think I have tried to leave qualifiers in my posts along the lines of "If true, then this is awful." I think others have too. My posts are usually so wordy that I may forget. A few more points below.

Hi all,

De-lurking here to say that I'm pretty surprised by the reactions here to Jen's post. As soon as I read it I headed over to see what everyone thought of the "bombshell".

I've seen three major arguments used to dismiss it, and I think they are to some extent flawed. The first kind of boils down to "it's not that big of a deal, Jen and TW are just angry and obsessive". I can see why the allegations don't seem like much to people on the outside, but I think within the context the story is important because it explains the exodus of a significant number of families from Doug-the-tool's church/cult/controlled environment. It's not the sort of bombshell I was hoping for, but from a perspective within the movement, it really is huge. The hypocrisy he displayed was enough to drive people away, even before his "affair" was publicly revealed. This asshat has attacked/excommunicated women merely for disagreeing with him or wearing clothes that don't fit his ideals of modesty. A woman in their church was flagrantly "immodest"- she’s seriously HOT in that photo, I've never seen anyone in that crowd dressed like that, and while I think it's awesome, I'm gobsmacked that he would "allow" it. And according to the reports, her behavior was entirely out of the range of what they consider appropriate. The fact that he didn’t send her packing is significant, though of what we don’t yet know (and may never, despite Jen’s heavy hinting).

It is very strange. She may well have some kind of a hold over Doug but we don't know. TW and Jen state this suspicion as fact. TW asks for others to come forward with an alleged piece of concrete corroborating evidence and provide it to them. TW goes so far as to threaten people that destroying this (alleged) piece of evidence will get them in serious trouble with the law. Huh? Is TW the prosecution in this case?

I don’t understand the hostility towards Jen on this. I know she’s angry and hyper focused in her writing, but so what? I’ve only read her blog on and off- does she have a history of lying that justifies dismissing the story? Yes, there is a level of speculation in the post, but certainly not any more than what happens here all the time. Is there any evidence that TW is the ex-husband?

In order: Jen and her former husband have quite a history of manipulation. They also haven't always been quite upfront with facts regarding their own excommunication. Yes, we speculate widely here, but then we are not claiming to have "insider" info and know the truth as Jen and TW are. No, we are just speculating and TW in his latest post wants us to believe that he is a survior of another church heavily influenced by DP.

Another complaint I see about the post is the undeniable slut shaming within. It’s nasty and I hate the use of “cougarâ€, though I’m also a little uncomfortable with calling JG “The Pretty Womanâ€, considering the movie reference- are we calling her a hooker, or trying to go meta with it? The problem is, an allegation isn’t necessarily untrue simply because it is phrased despicably.

I'm calling her Mrs. Robinson. I missed the reference to her as Pretty Woman here and I don't think anyone is trying to go meta. TW and Jen are the ones stating that she is a predator. I don't discount the possibility, but their examples were not sufficient for me to take their word for it.

That leads to the final argument- the allegations are irrelevant because the person caught en flagrante with her was 18, and so what if she was hitting on men. The age of consent part is valid, though I have seen very good arguments made that even though Hero was of age, young women in that culture are groomed to be prime victims and have little concept of/ability to consent. A similar argument could be made towards the young man. While their boys upbringing is radically different than the girls, and doesn’t groom them to subservience, I also doubt that they are taught to navigate sexual encounters in any mature fashion. But I see his age of consent being used to ignore the rest of the narrative- the sexual harassment of others. The story specifically cites that- unwanted advances by JG. Because they were allegedly accepted by some in the community, that doesn’t excuse that others weren’t. Families went to Doug (who they consider the arbiter of behavior) and asked him to stop the harassment. They were shot down and told to shut up. If you flip the genders in this story, I think it becomes clear that the situation was problematic and hostile.

All very good points and they have been thoroughly made and discussed here already if you look at previous threads. :) If she is indeed a predator and a sexual harasser then this is awful and Doug should be hauled over very hot coals for permitting it to continue. So should all the other elders and deacons of the church over whom she had no "speculated" hold and who were not carrying on affairs with women other than their wives. Don't you find the story of Daddy with the GPS creepy?

It reminds me of a lot of the IFB scandals. I have mixed feelings about outing her publicly, especially with TW remaining pseudonymous while accusing her by name, but if this story were being told about a man in the church, I think some people would be demanding to know who it was in order to warn/protect others.

Apparently the identity of Mrs. R was well known within the community. TW shamed her to the outside world and the evidence that she did anything truly abhorent or illegal is not there. If it is there, then TW should be informing law enforcement. It appears he has not.

Sorry for the rambling, but I think this could be important, if not to outsiders, than to those struggling within the movement. Jen claims that the more information comes to light, the more people are coming to her with similar stories.

What worries me is that Jen and TW are encouraging and leading a witch hunt. People "may" be coming forward with wrong, unreliable, or wildly exaggerated stories to pay off scores. See Salem Witch Trials. I want Doug to go down on solid evidence not speculation.

While it may not leave much to snark on, it does seem to increase schisms, and to someone like me who wants to see the patriarchy movement stopped, it’s good news.

Here we completely agree. This is a serious blow to the Patriarchy and the more solid information that comes out the better.

[TaylorMaid]

I think the difference between the Doug Phillips/Hero situation and the JG/young man situation is the power imbalance. Both Hero and the young man were over 18, so legally, they aren't victims. But, assuming Hero is the nanny, that power imbalance throws doubt on whether or not she consented. JG's behavior may have been immodest, but the tool's behavior was predatory. When you add in the hypocrisy of The tool parading his family around as the model of the perfect Christian family, that makes it even worse.

I agree, the situations are in no way equivalent. I don't know whether to call JG predatory, but her (alleged) drastic personality change after her brother's death is a flag of mental illness. If so, she deserves help, not enabling or indifference. Doug is likely beyond help and deserves disdain.

[DomWackTroll]

I called J.G. "The Pretty Woman" in a post, but I was not making reference to the film or suggesting that she was hooker. Just want to be clear.

[formergothardite]

I thought he said, "The twinkle of wonder is all about me." which, since he likes to make everything all about him, is rather fitting.

[Talitha Cumi]

So, according to the commenter over at SSB, this is the Toolhouse:

Even for 8 kids, that house is unnecessarily large.

[formergothardite]

He lived like that while his followers and employees stacked their children on shelves.

[Talitha Cumi]

He lived like that while his followers and employees stacked their children on shelves.

I was just thinking that. How did the inashoe family reconcile it? Did they worship the Tool that much?

[fatcat]

Re: The Tool's House

Gross. I heard he had a swimming pool in there somewhere too...

[ILoveJellybeans]

I was just thinking that. How did the inashoe family reconcile it? Did they worship the Tool that much?

Im guessing they thought Doug was such a holy, Godly man that God blessed him with such a big house and extravagant lifestyle, and that if they followed all of his rules and kept on trying to live up to his standards of Godliness, God would shower them with blessings too.

[lemonhead]

I don't understand why he didn't simply become a litigator once he had his J.D. Good litigators are almost invariably excellent actors. I suppose he saw more $$$ and power over others in running his own "Church" with a business on the side. Any return to law will be difficult now with suspicions of financial mismanagement hanging over him.

I agree. My guess is he realized he would never be influential, wealthy, and powerful as an attorney, compared to his prospects in patriarchy. In law, he would be a small fish in a big pond; in his chosen lifestyle, he was a huge fish in a tiny puddle. It doesn't get any better than that for a malignant narcissist.

[TaylorMaid]

You make some excellent points. I'm glad you delurked. :D

I'll admit that TW Eston drives me up the wall, and that I have been playing devil's advocate a lot here with his posts on JensGems. There is something about the patronizing way he writes, his bold assertions, his assertions of speculation as fact, his glee at the downfall of BCA, and his scandalmongering that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. To add to that, I think Jen and "TW" are not necessarily trusted within the Boerne community and would not be the first people to whom "insiders" would confide. They hit my "hinky meter."

That said, I think I have tried to leave qualifiers in my posts along the lines of "If true, then this is awful." I think others have too. My posts are usually so wordy that I may forget.

Thanks, I don't do it often, as I'm mostly content to enjoy the show. I hope I didn't imply that everyone here shared or agreed with the arguments I discussed and you do indeed use qualifiers.

It is very strange. She may well have some kind of a hold over Doug but we don't know. TW and Jen state this suspicion as fact. TW asks for others to come forward with an alleged piece of concrete corroborating evidence and provide it to them. TW goes so far as to threaten people that destroying this (alleged) piece of evidence will get them in serious trouble with the law. Huh? Is TW the prosecution in this case?

I've been speculating about that privately, and I wonder if it couldn't be a hard drive or laptop. In theory, that could contain proof of both illegal and "immoral" activities. Destroying copies of financial records could be considered obstruction. The last reference to it that I remember hinted that an intern had it, which is plausible. Or TW is bullshitting and trying to intimidate.

In order: Jen and her former husband have quite a history of manipulation. They also haven't always been quite upfront with facts regarding their own excommunication. Yes, we speculate widely here, but then we are not claiming to have "insider" info and know the truth as Jen and TW are. No, we are just speculating and TW in his latest post wants us to believe that he is a survior of another church heavily influenced by DP.

Can you say more about that history? I haven't read her entire archives, and I've never seen a direct reference here. That's not to say it hasn't been done, just that I'm unaware.

All very good points and they have been thoroughly made and discussed here already if you look at previous threads. :) If she is indeed a predator and a sexual harasser then this is awful and Doug should be hauled over very hot coals for permitting it to continue. So should all the other elders and deacons of the church over whom she had no "speculated" hold and who were not carrying on affairs with women other than their wives. Don't you find the story of Daddy with the GPS creepy?

I have read the threads, though it's been over the weeks as they were created, so my memories are a bit blurred. :) To be honest, I didn't find the GPS too creepy. It fits perfectly with the culture of total control by the father, and I imagine that despite his being 18 the son is still under their roof, and thus accountable to him. If I were the son, I'd be pissed, but not surprised or creeped out.

Apparently the identity of Mrs. R was well known within the community. TW shamed her to the outside world and the evidence that she did anything truly abhorent or illegal is not there. If it is there, then TW should be informing law enforcement. It appears he has not.

What worries me is that Jen and TW are encouraging and leading a witch hunt. People "may" be coming forward with wrong, unreliable, or wildly exaggerated stories to pay off scores. See Salem Witch Trials. I want Doug to go down on solid evidence not speculation.

I wonder if perhaps where you and I differ is on the quality of evidence. I want Doug to go down, but don't much care as to whether it is in a court of law, or the court of public opinion. And between the two, the standards of evidence are very different. Skepticism is healthy, but where should it end? If it's the anonymity that gets you, do you have any ideas on how that could be resolved while still keeping victims safe? I was part of a harassment case, and couldn't be upfront because they couldn't guarantee protection. It took a large volume of anonymous claims to bring the harasser down, but it did eventually happen.

[TaylorMaid]

I called J.G. "The Pretty Woman" in a post, but I was not making reference to the film or suggesting that she was hooker. Just want to be clear.

Thanks. I wasn't sure because it worked on multiple levels and in different directions :D

[DomWackTroll]

From a 2006 article about Doug Phillips, written by M.B.:

"And thus, as Mr. Phillips explained, the Mayan people developed to a point where they became a nation without fathers in the historical sense of fatherhood. The children did not belong to their fathers, nor were they viewed as belonging to a loving God. Rather, they were under the domain and the property of the priests or educrats, who, when the time came, cut out the hearts of many of these innocent ones and threw their corpses into a 'pool of death.'"

visionforumministries.org/issues/news_and_reports/the_story_of_the_mayas.aspx

Oh, the irony.

[RosyDaisy]

Is this about to blow wide open?

I hope so. I hope it spreads to Gothard/IBLP and like-minded groups. They all need to be brought to their knees and repent for their numerous sins against women and girls, for brainwashing their flock, and for condemning large family to poverty.

[Karsaroni]

Brava, TaylorMaid!

You make perfect sense.

If I ever said any of the things you refute, I take 'em back now!

I also agree with your post a 100%. Jen and TD, while obviously bitter and with a MAJOR ax to grind w/ Phillips and co, really have done a great job showcasing to the public (and honestly... confirming what a great deal of the Free Jinger folks have said all along) what a massive tool Doug really is.

As a whole, this whole "reveal" is HUGE. All elements of it. It might not be as "juicy" as we want it to be on some levels, but just the fact that the bag is being pulled off the heads of so many of DP's followers is amazing! I for one am at least hoping some of these kids now have a chance at a normal life.

Unfortunately based on the latest article from TD, it appears that some of his followers still refuse acknowledge what is really going on... that letter from the CHEF Homeschool group in MO is pretty disgusting and telling of how some will just refuse to get it.

My favorite quote though from TD's latest article and the one that makes me hold out hope for the (many) kids of the parents that fell for this farce of a Leader/Movement is this:

"If ever there were a system intended to destroy the Christian faith of children and teens, Doug Phillips has perfected it."

Let's hope this is true for many of these people.