The Continuing Fall of VF and Doug Phillips is a tool-Part 4

[SheWhoIsObeyed]

I'm having trouble linking right now, but two things

1. Eston is back with a 12/6 posting. Haven't read it yet, but it is a "Portrait" of Doug Who Is A Tool and also as we should officially acknowledge a Narcissist as most everyone is calling him. Or as Eston calls him a sociopathic narcissist.

2. The neighbor of Doug Who Is A Tool, posting on Spiritual Sounding Board, has some .... "delicious morsels".... is that what they were called? In any case, one thing I found interesting is that the neighborhood has been fed up for a while and went to the city council over what they perceived to be child slavery going on in the house. Oh and more info on the "cougar." Perhaps, there IS more to the story. The neighbor who has no love for Doug seems to place her on the same level as Doug and KNOWS her.

hmmmmmm.....people are speaking out, stepping up, coming out of the woodwork. Julie Anne at SSB says she's getting contacted by lots of people from VF circles who are seeking help.

Is this about to blow wide open?

[nelliebelle1197]

I'm having trouble linking right now, but two things

1. Eston is back with a 12/6 posting. Haven't read it yet, but it is a "Portrait" of Doug Who Is A Tool and also as we should officially acknowledge a Narcissist as most everyone is calling him. Or as Eston calls him a sociopathic narcissist.

2. The neighbor of Doug Who Is A Tool, posting on Spiritual Sounding Board, has some .... "delicious morsels".... is that what they were called? In any case, one thing I found interesting is that the neighborhood has been fed up for a while and went to the city council over what they perceived to be child slavery going on in the house. Oh and more info on the "cougar." Perhaps, there IS more to the story. The neighbor who has no love for Doug seems to place her on the same level as Doug and KNOWS her.

hmmmmmm.....people are speaking out, stepping up, coming out of the woodwork. Julie Anne at SSB says she's getting contacted by lots of people from VF circles who are seeking help.

Is this about to blow wide open?

This "neighbor" seems suspicious to me. Anyone else? Who calls the city council about child slavery? Isn't that a police matter??

[Cleopatra7]

This "neighbor" seems suspicious to me. Anyone else? Who calls the city council about child slavery? Isn't that a police matter??

Maybe what she means is that some of the kids (either the Phillips kids or other young people from BCA) were seen working at the house during times when they should have been in school. This poster writes in a weird, stilted way, so it's hard to ascertain what she means. She and the other concerned neighbors could have been told that whatever was going on wasn't against the law, and became frustrated.

[SheWhoIsObeyed]

This "neighbor" seems suspicious to me. Anyone else? Who calls the city council about child slavery? Isn't that a police matter??

I don't trust any of them implicitly, but her narrative seems real to me. After everything the neighborhood seems to have witnessed, I do not think it out of the realm of belief that a group of concerned people go to authorities over their concerns. We don't know that they didn't go to the police as well. Perhaps they went to the police who told them to go to the city council. Perhaps one of them is on the council or friends with a council member. There are any number of possible scenarios. Until we have more concrete evidence, we can speculate all we want, but we won't know for sure.

Something I find troubling in these forums is that we often don't take into account that one's account may be true but not contain EVERY detail of a story and that leads to wild speculation and twisting of the story. Just because they didn't provide every single nuance and detail doesn't mean that what they offered was not true. Additionally, not everyone writes well or has a good grasp of language, therefore, their story might not be as clear as they would like for it to be. We must be of an open mind and seek to understand the meaning of the writer.

[nelliebelle1197]

I don't trust any of them implicitly, but her narrative seems real to me. After everything the neighborhood seems to have witnessed, I do not think it out of the realm of belief that a group of concerned people go to authorities over their concerns. We don't know that they didn't go to the police as well. Perhaps they went to the police who told them to go to the city council. Perhaps one of them is on the council or friends with a council member. There are any number of possible scenarios. Until we have more concrete evidence, we can speculate all we want, but we won't know for sure.

Something I find troubling in these forums is that we often don't take into account that one's account may be true but not contain EVERY detail of a story and that leads to wild speculation and twisting of the story. Just because they didn't provide every single nuance and detail doesn't mean that what they offered was not true. Additionally, not everyone writes well or has a good grasp of language, therefore, their story might not be as clear as they would like for it to be. We must be of an open mind and seek to understand the meaning of the writer.

I get that. I feel the same way- some of the speculation has been pure fantasy. Of course, it is hard not to fall into the trap!!

[mnwnwmwmn]

Morecraft finally gave his Under the Bus sermon. Go to sermon audio and look for "How to Tear Down Your House with Your Own Hands", or something like that. I was actually pleasantly surprised by how strongly he came to Hero's defense.

[ILoveJellybeans]

There is zero proof of that. Hasn't that woman been through enough with her brother dying, her reaction and Jen's shaming of her with idle speculation that the Tool tooled her? For some reason, I am oddly protective of her. Make sense?

Sorry.

I only bought it up because of something one of the commenters on one of the blog posts linked here said, about her car being seen outside the house a lot when Beall isn't there, by a neighbour of Doug's.

[chaotic life]

The house is listed under "Forum Ministries Vision" and is assessed at $450K. Zillow says it's only a 3 bedroom, 3.5 bath with 3500 sqft. However, the homeowner can edit Zillow and the aerial picture clearly shows those states are a lie. The place is HUGE just from an aerial shot.

Here's the direct link to Sproul's defrocking.

hushmoney.org/RPCGA-judgment.pdf

That's the direct document from the Presbyterian Church on why they disciplined and defrocked him and the elders of his church. A lot of it is doctrinal issues, but they are VERY serious doctrinal issues. If you seek ordination within a denomination, you agree to abide by the theological stance of that denomination and you agree to fall under the accountability and discipline of that denomination. Sproul it appears sought ordination and deliberately and knowingly disobeyed that requirement, despite having been questioned at his ordination of whether it was going to be an issue for him to abide by. He was deliberately deceptive to his denomination. He violated al that his denomination found appropriate in handling members of his own congregation.

Then, there's the little ditty about using the tax id of a DIFFERENT church which is identity theft and quite illegal.

It's also important to note that the Presbyterians state it requires two witnesses to bring charges against a member and the witnesses in this situation were almost exclusively Sproul and his own elders who CONFESSED to what they were doing.

I think this is highly compelling for these patriarchal jerks that they want inappropriate and abusive authority over those who place themselves under them spiritually but they flat-out refuse ALL authority that is actually over them. The rules just don't apply to them the way it does to everyone else. They just turn logical upside down. They can justify to themselves that expecting all authority and control and exerting tyrannical abuse against congregants is OK, but accepting that THEY have authority they must answer to as ministers and that their own authority is 100% justified in disciplining and reprimanding them is somehow NOT okay.

[Rosie]

Make it stop. Make it stop. I don't want to go there, Doug. No crescendo, please!

I am HOWLING here!

[nelliebelle1197]

Sorry.

I only bought it up because of something one of the commenters on one of the blog posts linked here said, about her car being seen outside the house a lot when Beall isn't there, by a neighbour of Doug's.

That sounded a lot meaner than I meant- sorry about that.

[formergothardite]

"I NEED MORE CELLOS!!" followed by Doug sounding like he just had an orgasm. How did anyone take him seriously?

[Cleopatra7]

"I NEED MORE CELLOS!!" followed by Doug sounding like he just had an orgasm. How did anyone take him seriously?

Once again, it's the Jim Jones factor at work. If you think your pastor is the only thing standing between you and your enemies, whether it's the KKK in the case of the People's Temple or the commie-Muslim-atheist mafia for VFers, you will happily hand over your autonomy and your critical thinking skills.

[danvillebelle]

Morecraft finally gave his Under the Bus sermon. Go to sermon audio and look for "How to Tear Down Your House with Your Own Hands", or something like that. I was actually pleasantly surprised by how strongly he came to Hero's defense.

That was an enjoyably Biblical smackdown. He basically called Doug a fool, several times in several ways. :clap:

[fuglyexfundy]

bionicmlle wrote:

ladyamylynn wrote:

ThisOlGirl wrote:

Kimerical wrote:

Doug Phillip$ is rather... unique in his demeanour...

http://vimeo.com/59747748 < At 01.30 he makes a sound that will haunt my dreams forever (he orgasms on stage and no one calls him out). I wonder how many people snickered in the audience or did it go completely over their heads?

Why did he need to make THAT sound to show his enthusiasm about dinosaur music? :pink-shock:

Doug Philliip$ is a tool

I'll never learn not to click on links where I know I'll hear/see something I don't want to. Hold me.

And someone get Dougie a cigarette.

Oh Myyyyyy.

Make it stop. Make it stop. I don't want to go there, Doug. No crescendo, please!

I am HOWLING here!

Doug Phillips is not just a tool, but a freak as well! :D Best Doug video EVER!

Seeing this makes me kind of sad. Waste angers me and I can't help feeling he wasted his talent. I really wonder if religion and self-loathing didn't play such a big role in his life, where would he be right now? A professor at some liberal arts college? The entertainment industry? (Say what you want, but it seems that film and the arts are his real passion.) I can't help wondering if he'd be happier and have a more positive effect on the people in his life.

I have this small hope that people can change in spite of themselves. Assuming no minors were ever abused by him directly, I hope he can get his act together and truly do something positive with his life. How easy could it have been, just playing devil's advocate here, for Doug to have gotten a career in fashion, Hollywood, Broadway, or in music with a dad like Howard Phillips? Well, Douggie's long been an adult. I hope he can re-channel his talents for good. TW (Epstein) and Jen really need to find a good therapist. I'm not saying the don't have legitimate complaints, but the level of revenge and obsession they're showing and who they're willing to harm to reach their goals is counterproductive and just plain nasty.

[freehannie]

I am amazed and highly entertained by this whole saga. What I don't get and hopefully someone can explain is if Doug was different behind closed doors as is being discussed by insiders all of the internet, why did everyone keep quiet about it? I understand that he was quite a powerful figure in the community, but I'm starting to think that those who knew he was a fraud figured that exposing him would be bad for their own brand once they were already publicly linked with him. So they all stayed silent to protect their interests. Yet they are coming out of the woodwork now to criticize him when supporting him would be bad for business. I'm not talking about the young girl but people like Morecraft, Bradrick, etc. It just seems so calculated rather than sincere.

[MamaJunebug]

fuglyexfundie wrote,

I have this small hope that people can change in spite of themselves. Assuming no minors were ever abused by him directly, I hope he can get his act together and truly do something positive with his life. How easy could it have been, just playing devil's advocate here, for Doug to have gotten a career in fashion, Hollywood, Broadway, or in music with a dad like Howard Phillips? Well, Douggie's long been an adult. I hope he can re-channel his talents for good. TW (Epstein) and Jen really need to find a good therapist. I'm not saying the don't have legitimate complaints, but the level of revenge and obsession they're showing and who they're willing to harm to reach their goals is counterproductive and just plain nasty.

While I'm a big schmo who wants to see everybody well-fed and happy, I also want to see justice done first. Then Doug can explore his inner true Doug.

[MamaJunebug]

I am amazed and highly entertained by this whole saga. What I don't get and hopefully someone can explain is if Doug was different behind closed doors as is being discussed by insiders all of the internet, why did everyone keep quiet about it? I understand that he was quite a powerful figure in the community, but I'm starting to think that those who knew he was a fraud figured that exposing him would be bad for their own brand once they were already publicly linked with him. So they all stayed silent to protect their interests. Yet they are coming out of the woodwork now to criticize him when supporting him would be bad for business. I'm not talking about the young girl but people like Morecraft, Bradrick, etc. It just seems so calculated rather than sincere.

I think this is where the axiom "There's no honor among thieves" can be applied. Or a version of it. 8-)

[MamaJunebug]

Morecraft finally gave his Under the Bus sermon. Go to sermon audio and look for "How to Tear Down Your House with Your Own Hands", or something like that. I was actually pleasantly surprised by how strongly he came to Hero's defense.

I'm too antsy to sit through a 74-minute sermon - I did listen enough to hear him abjure husbands the same number of times as wives, though. Can you give a sense of what he said that defended Hero?? TIA!

[Creaky Mom]

I am HOWLING here!

He looks bleary-eyed in this video.

I couldn't even get through that, or the one of his touchy-feely-squicky father-daughter duet. :disgust:

[nokidsmom]

Seeing this makes me kind of sad. Waste angers me and I can't help feeling he wasted his talent. I really wonder if religion and self-loathing didn't play such a big role in his life, where would he be right now? A professor at some liberal arts college? The entertainment industry? (Say what you want, but it seems that film and the arts are his real passion.) I can't help wondering if he'd be happier and have a more positive effect on the people in his life.

Actually, I hear you on this. Dougie has some real talents and, coupled with his charismatic personality (let's ignore the narcissism for now), how else might he have turned out if he didn't get sucked up in the VF cult/religion. What if he had chosen a more positive path?

I remember hearing some saying that went along the lines of how a person's life experiences can either send them down a good path or a bad one. You can decide to become a priest or you can decide to become a terrorist. Those aren't the exact words but it went something like that.

I have this small hope that people can change in spite of themselves. Assuming no minors were ever abused by him directly, I hope he can get his act together and truly do something positive with his life. How easy could it have been, just playing devil's advocate here, for Doug to have gotten a career in fashion, Hollywood, Broadway, or in music with a dad like Howard Phillips? Well, Douggie's long been an adult. I hope he can re-channel his talents for good. TW (Epstein) and Jen really need to find a good therapist. I'm not saying the don't have legitimate complaints, but the level of revenge and obsession they're showing and who they're willing to harm to reach their goals is counterproductive and just plain nasty.

People can change in spite of themselves but there are some that never will. Frankly, I think Dougie is one of them. From what I have been reading here, he sounds like a narcissist of the highest order. He's not going to change because he's never wrong in spite of tons of evidence to the contrary. Add to the fact, that he may face potential criminal charges, which will potentially land him in jail for a very long time so his "opportunities" to channel for good will probably be limited to the local prison population, say a prison ministry.

Agreed that Jen and TW (assuming he is who we think he is) do really need help. Yes, they have been wronged, but it's way too long to hold on to the anger and trying to get to get revenge.

[zandria]

Can you give a sense of what he said that defended Hero?? TIA!

I didn't listen to the whole thing, but a few times he seemed to be addressing Hero. This is from memory, so I'm not sure it's precisely accurate. At one point he was quoting from the Bible a verse about a harlot or a temptress, and he made the aside that the young lady in the Phillips case was neither, implying that he knew who Hero was and knew her character. Morecraft has a daughter about Hero's age, and I wondered whether he knew her as a friend of his daughter's. When he returned to the Bible verse, he went out of his way to universalize the passage, turning the Biblical temptress into either a woman or a man, like he was trying to remove the focus from Hero in particular.

Later in the sermon he criticized the patriarchal idea that women are responsible for men's infidelity and came down strongly in favor of every person, man or woman, being responsible for their own sexual sin. The implication was that Doug and Doug alone was responsible for the infidelity.

eta: I remembered another thing that might or might not have concerned Hero. Morecraft pointedly criticized men who tear down their own houses, then went on to describe what a family living amid the destruction looked like: cold, lacking in love and affection for the children. He went on to say that a child growing up in those circumstances would look for affection elsewhere, and perhaps find it in inappropriate places....I was wondering whether he knew something about Hero's family of birth and her circumstances that predisposed her to look to Doug for love.

[MamaJunebug]

I didn't listen to the whole thing, but a few times he seemed to be addressing Hero. This is from memory, so I'm not sure it's precisely accurate. At one point he was quoting from the Bible a verse about a harlot or a temptress, and he made the aside that the young lady in the Phillips case was neither, implying that he knew who Hero was and knew her character. Morecraft has a daughter about Hero's age, and I wondered whether he knew her as a friend of his daughter's. When he returned to the Bible verse, he went out of his way to universalize the passage, turning the Biblical temptress into either a woman or a man, like he was trying to remove the focus from Hero in particular.

Later in the sermon he criticized the patriarchal idea that women are responsible for men's infidelity and came down strongly in favor of every person, man or woman, being responsible for their own sexual sin. The implication was that Doug and Doug alone was responsible for the infidelity.

Well bless his heart! And yours too. And NOT in any snarky sense. I clicked around on the timeline and got kinda distracted where he got huffy about the Catholic Church doctrine wrt communion. I'm Lutheran and ours are distinct from both catholic & reformed but I feel some kinda kinship w the RC when Calvinsts attack. In the DNA, I suppose ;)

[nokidsmom]

Well bless his heart! And yours too. And NOT in any snarky sense. I clicked around on the timeline and got kinda distracted where he got huffy about the Catholic Church doctrine wrt communion. I'm Lutheran and ours are distinct from both catholic & reformed but I feel some kinda kinship w the RC when Calvinsts attack. In the DNA, I suppose ;)

Another Lutheran here. Since Martin Luther was a former Catholic priest, I can see feeling the kinship there. And while there are differences in terms of doctrine including re: communion, the Lutheran worship service takes a lot from the Catholic Mass.

[artschooldropout]

I'm laughing so hard I can barely breathe! That vimeo clip is beyond hysterical. I find VF-related issues important to understand and interesting, but never before have I been entertained by them. If you haven't watched 1:15-1:30 yet, you must.

http://vimeo.com/59747748

"And the crescendo is building and building. I can feel it. Can you feel it? There they are! The most beautiful creatures in the world, and I never thought I'd be able to see them. I need more cellos, more cellos. There they are! The dinosaurs have come back! AWWWURGHHHHH!"

"The twinkle of wonder is all around me"

[Palimpsest]

I took a moment to browse the Puritan Forum to see whether they had any words of wisdom for VF followers in this difficult time. There was a thread there but it was locked in under two pages. There was a squabble about credobaptism and paedocommunism. For a brief moment I wondered whether "paedocommunists" were indoctrinating minors in Marxism but then I remembered where I was. :lol: (It is the controversial practice of patriarchs instead of pastors giving communion to their families, and deciding whether their own babies can receive it for anyone wondering.)

Then people started asking difficult questions about who was connected to the Tool and what to watch out for in potentially cultish pastors so the Mods shut it down pronto! Can't say I was surprised. IMO, of the pastors regularly posting there, some must be quite anxious and wondering whether they will be the next to Fall.

Oh, so TW is at it again? I have to run and see what gems of wisdom he is sharing today. I hope he is briefer this time and provides some evidence for his wilder statements of "fact."