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https://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/20595374/tdest_id/1860854 "A letter, written to Rachel's father, demanding her hand in marriage is a perfect example of spiritual abuse in a Christian courtship. Rachel relives her past anguish in this episode as she, along with Joe, read and comment on a real-life letter as an example of manipulation and narcissism." Wtf. Some points for the tl;dr - Her dad did not like N (she refers to him as N in the podcast), so her mom was more involved in the courtship. natty shouted at his mom until she broke down in tears.. Her parents disapproved of them holding hands He insisted they get married within 2-3 mths from one of their last few meetings, her mom said it was not enough time to plan a wedding and he said why not, as it was enough time for him to plan a conference 🙄 After rachel broke up with him, he put HER family under HIS church discipline (?) 😂😂 After rachel broke up with him, he sent her dad a long waffling letter accusing her of opening up "intimacies" by talking to him as a potential future husband and says she does not have grounds to end the relationship. Scolds her parents for "allowing" their relationship to go "public" which supposedly misled him to believe they would get married. Ends the letter by demanding that they get married. Lame PS where he whines about his difficulty announcing the end of their courtship to his social circle. He sounds like a fucking petty child. Rachel dodged a massive bullet. Hope his wife listens to this podcast in secret 😂

Original is here with commentary! http://freejinger.yuku.com/topic/4646/LOLDOUG

Hey guys. Deanna Coghlan here. I'm in a mood and I want to talk shit about DPIAT and Vision Forum. I'll answer some questions about my childhood if I deem them appropriate, but I'm not looking to gossip about my family. For real though I want to talk shit. Ask me lol

I feel like so much has changed in the homeschooling world and in church culture in recent years, so I was just curious - do you see anything taking the place of VF in fundie culture? I know ATI is still out there, but since the fall of VF, both homeschool and traditional church circles are looking more introspective with a lot less emphasis on outward appearance, policing skirt length, etc... They're not really a ministry but since VF, MLMs seem to be EVERYWHERE. That has gotten to the point that my church actually banned folks from shilling them at women's ministry events (a decision that left most of us feeling very #thankful and #blessed). However, I don't really see any one celebrity teacher/leader rising up to fill the VF void. Do you all see any successors out there? I don't mean this as a criticism. I actually think it's good because what I'm seeing in church now is more of an emphasis on studying the actual Bible and trying to follow God rather than follow someone like DWP. I was just curious is there was some wrinkle to the movement I was missing in my little corner of the country.

Is anyone aware of Girl Defined's strong ties to Doug Phillips' former Vision Forum?

I grew up in Vision Forum style patriarchy, and hi. I'm messed up. I wore headcoverings and spent hours preaching against the evils of rock music. I listened to Vision Forum CDs as a hobby. I went to conferences and believed in courtship and was discouraged from leaving home to visit friends for even a week, and wasn't allowed to get a job even after I turned 21. Hi. I'm the Black Sheep. Ask me anything.

Hey all! I've been working hard on making Youtube videos lately. I talk about different subjects and people that relate to fundamentalism while doing my makeup (GRWM = Get ready with me). Like the Pearls, Bill Gothard, the Duggars, etc. My goal is to be educational plus funny. I inject a lot of memes and jokes in the videos and I like to manipulate clips I find of my subjects online. I am shooting all of these on my iphone and I'm learning to use the editing software, so sometimes the videos can be rough at times. I wanted to share my videos with FJ because this was the forum that really got me invested in fundies. I also feel like this community might get some of the more obscure references to different people in the videos. This has become a labor of love for me. I am going to link to my 3 best videos (in my opinion, at least.) Feel free to check them out and let me know what you think. Vision Forum The Pearls The Duggars Part 1

I grew up in IT. All of it. A lot of it. I’m almost 35. And I am finding FJ healing as I work through a lot of crap. Here to share. I do have to be careful....

Only about 5 million photos, courtesy of Melissa Niednagel, who of course looked amazing and perfect three weeks after giving birth to an infant who of course was a perfect angel throughout the entire event. Needless to say, it was a retro hipster nightmare-- with no alcohol, as far as I could see!

Hi all. Old member returning here. Some of you may remember my association with the Niednagel family. Still trying to get my Christian views and living into perspective. As with most things in life that are important, it hasn't been easy. For those unfamiliar, I was actually raised in a happy, non-legalistic, broadly conservative Christian home (WELS Lutheran first and then vaguely Pentecostal later). My brother had a tragic death in 1997, my late mother retreated into watching TBN even more than she did before (I learned later that this wasn't good, I know), my parents left church and did home-study for years after that (and became obsessed with the End Times, along with an idiosyncratic and completely unorthodox view that people can be saved after they die, hence no interest in evangelism per se), and I myself went through an agnostic period in my late teens and early twenties (2003-2005). Around that time, I also became increasingly acquainted the famous/infamous Niednagel family through their Brain Types theory and a shared interest in basketball and other sports (my late mother and I were huge basketball fans), returned to Christianity in 2005 (though not because of the Niednagels, whose version of Christianity I was still ignorant of -- but because of a vision that I was leading a fornicating and unbelieving life and would go to hell if I didn't repent), later learned all about Calvinism and ATI/Vision Forum and the Stay-At-Home Daughters movement through the Niednagels (2007-2012), subsequently got completely confused over what type of Christianity was best (2012-2013ish and beyond), got disheartened over the perceived inadequacies of my alleged "Brain Type," attended Calvary Chapel for a few years (2013-2017), then attended an IFB church for half a year (2017 through early part of this year), witnessed my mother's passing (Feb of this year), and now am with the LCMS church (April to present). My husband, whom I married in 2016 and met back in 2004 when I was agnostic, remains skeptical of theism, but has never dissuaded me from my faith when I returned to it in 2005. My father still attends Calvary Chapel, yet his laid-back theism is essentially this: Jesus is the Only Way, but there are no hills worth dying on after that (and yes, he remains convinced that people can be saved after they die, and has no interest in debating politics and religion with people, though he is supportive of Trump and doesn't think transgenderism or homosexuality is right, but refrains from judging the eternal state of such people). He's enjoying the single life, golfing, food, drink, and basically the "eat drink and be merry" type of life. He could have no more gotten into the Niednagels' version of controlling and rigid patriarchy than fly to the moon. They look down on him as a generic FCIR "Brain Type." Contrary to what the Niednagels think, I don't think that's an entirely bad thing. So I've pretty much seen and analyzed the whole spectrum of conservative Christianity, even as I approach merely my mid-thirties. I'm now at the stage of, what is truly important? I don't believe secularism, liberalism, or other faiths hold the answers from what I've perceived and studied -- but conservative Protestant Christianity is so divided that it's been tough to navigate the terrains, especially since my parents weren't exactly theologically rigorous themselves. Becoming affiliated with the Niednagels, and witnessing the hair-splitting tendencies of Calvinists, really opened my eyes. I also learned about all kinds of other things my less-than-systematic parents ignored, like how the Pentecostal dispensationalism my mother embraced for the final twenty or so years of her life is COMPLETELY at odds with the Wisconsin Synod Lutheran upbringing she touted so much, how my father is perceived as theologically weak even by Calvary Chapel standards, and just how little doctrine my parents imparted compared to other conservative Christian factions. My parents were always like, "this doesn't pertain to salvation, so don't worry about it!" Even in somewhat more stringent Calvary Chapel circles, the message always is, "it's a relationship, not a religion" -- way too fluffy for the likes of Calvinism! The Niednagels and other Calvinists, instead, were always like, "you need to engage the analytic concrete left brain more, Christianity is about rules and regulations which you abstract right brainers struggle with meeting, you need to analyze Scripture in context with the left brain instead of your dominant right brain, God may be love but that is not all He is, holiness is a mandate, women are property" etc. Not convinced either of these extremes are good anymore, tbh. I wouldn't say my parents were outright Antinomians, but they were close. And I do think there are Scriptural and practical problems with that. But I'm also skeptical of the pride, hypocrisy, and legalism of the Niednagels and other Calvinists. I don't think their way is Scripturally right or balanced, either. I like the LCMS because I think their doctrines make the most sense, theologically and practically. I don't want to write a treatise here, so if you want further analysis of these people and groups, and how their beliefs, doctrines, and practices pertain to Scripture (or lack thereof), feel free to ask. I'm just giving background for context here to start. Oh, and if you follow Michelle Lesley's web site, I was the one who recently asked about the Great Commission and women's roles.

And guess what, bro? Blow jobs are TOTALLY AWESOME!!!

Hello! I wanted to start reading the threads on DPIAT but have no idea where this started or where to look. Can anyone help?! Thanks!

Awhile back, I mentioned making a thread about ATI beliefs vs VF beliefs. I know it's been a few weeks and I'm sorry - I got swamped with my final paper for my class (which I got a B in!), I got seriously ill, my doctor changed my anti depressant and I'm still adjusting, etc. I'm now able to make the post and point out some of the theological differences. Again, I am so sorry it took so long. ATI is Calvinist in belief. To put it simply, here are some basics on Calvinism. I'm pretty well-versed in it, as a common debate at my old school was Calvinism vs Arminianism. Calvin can best be summed up in the "Calvin's Tulip". There is much more to it, of course (which I can expand on if people have questions) but it gives it a simple summary. Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) Unconditional Election Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement) Irresistible Grace Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved) (http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm) So, these are the basics of Calvinism. You can also read more here: http://www.thecaveonline.com/APEH/calvinTULIP.html Which explains it far better than I could in my slightly groggy, drug-changing state. VF, on the other hand, is Baptist. Which, here is a link: http://www.wordmp3.com/files/gs/einwechter.htm So, how are they the same? How do they differ? Glad you asked! These links sum it up well! http://www.baptistpillar.com/article_166.html http://www.biblebelievers.net/calvinism/kjcalvn1.htm I apologize for the massive amount of links, but I figured I should cite my sources. And anyone who wants to read more about how Calvinism and Baptism differ and are similar. I can answer questions or provide more links if anyone wants more reading than the massive amount here, but, I hope this helps answer some questions!

On this, the one year anniversary of what will forever be known as Tool O'Ween, I give you, an LOLDOUG! Let us take this day to mock into oblivion the biggest tool that ever lived! Post some new LOLs, repost your favorites, dig up his greatest quotes. Go nuts. As I was at work one year ago when all the shit hit the fan, I'm am commemorating today by WFH, so look for LOLs throughout the day. Doug Phillips is a Tool!

And telling us who to vote for: One of his "friends" is dismayed at this advice, because the candidate's married daughter hyphenates her last names! Some other Dumb Dora thanks Doug for his manly leadership, which has been so lacking in his absence. You just know that Doug and Spanks have been hanging on the phone like two thirteen-year-old girls, excitedly planning their dual comeback.

I haven't been keeping up with this. The last I knew, Lourdes was divorcing Nolan, and he wasn't coping well. I encourage anyone with more knowledge than me to post a quick recap of recent topics. Part 1: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21996 Older thread about this stuff: Previous Lourdes Manteufel threads: Part 1: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21549 Part 2: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21709 Previous Doug Phillips (is a tool) threads: Part 1: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19831 Part 2: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19945 Part 3: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20076 Part 4: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20272 Part 5: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20492 Part 6: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20934 Part 7: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21372 Part 8: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21590

She’s accused of— gulp— helping to hide the body of a murder victim. http://www.ksat.com/content/pns/ksat/ne ... o-cre.html Jen asks for your prayers: facebook.com/Jensgems/posts/10207045252956930?pnref=story Natasha’s FB page: facebook.com/tashanastasiaJAP?pnref=story Natasha was once the best friend of Doug Phillips' victim, Lourdes Torres.

You decide! Former Vision Forum wunderkind John Robert Moore is gushing about his most recent project, “Chasing American Legends,” a reality TV show about Texas politician Rick Green and his family doing “history” stuff (and shootin' guns!) to teach kids. https://www.facebook.com/thepaladinian/posts/10152914191269649?pnref=story Let’s have a look at Rick Green’s Wikipedia page, shall we? “Green is associated with WallBuilders, an organization that seeks to present America's ‘forgotten’ history as a Christian nation.[4] WallBuilders was founded by former Texas Republican vice-chairman David Barton of Aledo, Texas.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Green_(Texas_politician) Yes, that David Barton! Here’s the WallBuilders website: “To assist in the formation of sound public policy, we have established the WallBuilders' ProFamily Legislative Network. This arm of WallBuilders monitors and collects pro-family legislation from the various states in over a dozen different areas (e.g., marriage, abortion, education, public morality, gambling, parental rights) which we then make available to legislators and activists in other states at their request, thus enabling pro-family legislation to be introduced in states across America.” http://www.wallbuilders.com/ABTOverview.asp But more on Rick: He’s endorsed by James Dobson of Focus on the Family, Mathew Staver of the Liberty Counsel, Kelly Shackelford of the Liberty Institute, Cathie Adams of the Texas Eagle Forum, and Chuck Norris of the Rightwing A-Holes League. http://rickgreen4texas.com/ Wow, John Robert Moore! It must be totally awesome to “leave Dominionism” and add stuff like ample-bosomed burlesque performers, bisexuality, and polyamory to your life but still make money pushing sexism, racism, and homophobia on others. Tell us again about your amazing “journey” and how much you’ve learned.

Thinking about Benessa and baby Spurgeon Seewald got me thinking - if Vision Forum were still around, I could see them trying to get in with that crowd (although I know the crowd is still around, if fractured) although I feel like VF would look down on them as 'nouveau riche'. I certainly think the Seewalds Jr are heading Reformedwards. Are there any other ATIers/non-Reformed types heading that way, or vice versa? I guess Lina going Catholic was a pretty big switcheroo.

I want to thank Jordan Niednagel, from my heart, for ten years of so beautifully documenting the wild and wacky world of Dominionism! Who can forget all the awesome, candid photos of dozens of Vision Forum events? The unintentionally hilarious (and revealing) home videos? The intimate tour of the interior of the Botkin home? The hot, half-naked brothers-in-law? (Wait, wut?) Congrats, Jordan, on a job well done under oftentimes trying circumstances. VF may be gone, but our mem’ries live on in your always stunning pics and always asinine commentary. http://www.niednagel.com/blog.htm

Well it's been 2 years since the day Doug Phillips fell from grace, or as he puts it, "The day the costume parties died". Let us take this day to do what we here can do like no other site on the internet, mock Doug into oblivion so Google will always know that Doug Phillips is a Tool! Post your favorite LOLDOUGS or make some new ones, and reminisce about shenanigans we laid upon him (the poll bomb, hacking his wikipedia page).

Sep 25-26: they continue to play dress-up with soldier uniforms and plenty of red lipstick, after dougie's fall. Courters, seargeants, verniers, bowmans, verrets, and other people i dont recognize in attendance. Boyer sisters sang. instagram.com/rememberingwwii Or check out the hashtag #rememberingwwii instagram.com/explore/tags/rememberingwwii

Beall posted this photo on FB of her looking very pretty and grown up: facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1135644953129467&set=p.1135644953129467&type=3&theater ETA: Among those who “liked†the post: James Pennington, Susan Disharoon, Emily Gunn, Kevin Turley, Joel Wean, Deborah Yuck, Bonnie Chancey, Wesley Strackbein, and Breezy Brookshire. Doug’s tragically Catholic mother, Margaret Phillips, left her Catholic germs in the thread.

I got a VF catalog today in the mail(that's a whole thread by itself), and i saw a whole page in there featuring DVDs by the West ladies. I've seen them around before and keep meaning to ask what the deal is with them. Obviously, they're very handy with sewing, cooking, gardening, etc... and I'm guessing they are fundie of some variant since they are in the VF catalog. Does anyone know where they fit into everything? I'd heard of a lot of the VF crowd at least in passing before this, but the Wests are new to me.