Child Collectors Extraordinaire

[Joan of Snarc]

klf,

I'm curious if Haven has grown any since she was adopted. She's a beautiful little girl, but from her pictures, she looks the same physically now as when she was first adopted -- I can't tell that she's grown or changed. Have you seen her enough to know?

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I hope I didn't imply I thought Haven doesn't HAVE PTSD - I pretty much agree with chaotic life, she very well might but it just can't be ALL that's going on. Not from the behavior, not from being 11 and functioning at the level of 3 and only doing 16 piece puzzles. There's just more happening.

Very early on in the blog she writes about how in China they told her that Haven has "closed syndrome" or something like that - I suspect they were talking 自閉症 (middle character is "closed") and that's just the Chinese word for autism. I know she very much wants to believe they were wrong but just from reading all the rest up until now, I suspect they're not wrong.

I'm just some random reader on the internet who took a few days to read through their entire blog because they seemed interesting. But reading the whole thing, it just really feels (just from the text) that yeah, at some point the parents decided that as long as the kid is happy, all pressure would be off, they'll just let her be her, and well, that's enough. So the other (well, first four) kids are homeschooling, but Haven just... isn't. She just does her own thing. They just let her be an enigma, she's quirky but okay it's cool, and anyway first daughter can "translate." That's a pretty huge responsibility NOW, but what about in 15 years?

It just seems to not be doing them any favors. Not gonna deny either, I wonder about the other disabled kids similarly, are they homeschooling with a good amount of pushing? Whatever level a kid is at, school needs to be challenging and pushing. Because it's not just "they do the normal path so obviously we should push them for a high level", or "they'll forever be dependent so we'll just let them be happy here at home" but even people who never will be independent, the more skills they can get, aimed at the life they WILL likely have, the better off they will be, better able to talk to roommates, express their wishes to staff, better able to enjoy recreational sports and crafts, better able to interact with friends, whatever it is. Because yeah, eventually they WILL move out somewhere as adults. Maybe with a sibling, but maybe not. And they'll need friends.

I think she's just stretched thin.

[klf7412]

klf,

I'm curious if Haven has grown any since she was adopted. She's a beautiful little girl, but from her pictures, she looks the same physically now as when she was first adopted -- I can't tell that she's grown or changed. Have you seen her enough to know?

I haven't seen her enough to know that well... I didn't know them until after they completed the adoptions of Hailee and Harper. I do believe that she has grown smidgens (is that a word? If not, I mean that she has grown a bit), but not a lot. She is very small.

[klf7412]

I hope I didn't imply I thought Haven doesn't HAVE PTSD - I pretty much agree with chaotic life, she very well might but it just can't be ALL that's going on. Not from the behavior, not from being 11 and functioning at the level of 3 and only doing 16 piece puzzles. There's just more happening.

Very early on in the blog she writes about how in China they told her that Haven has "closed syndrome" or something like that - I suspect they were talking 自閉症 (middle character is "closed") and that's just the Chinese word for autism. I know she very much wants to believe they were wrong but just from reading all the rest up until now, I suspect they're not wrong.

I'm just some random reader on the internet who took a few days to read through their entire blog because they seemed interesting. But reading the whole thing, it just really feels (just from the text) that yeah, at some point the parents decided that as long as the kid is happy, all pressure would be off, they'll just let her be her, and well, that's enough. So the other (well, first four) kids are homeschooling, but Haven just... isn't. She just does her own thing. They just let her be an enigma, she's quirky but okay it's cool, and anyway first daughter can "translate." That's a pretty huge responsibility NOW, but what about in 15 years?

It just seems to not be doing them any favors. Not gonna deny either, I wonder about the other disabled kids similarly, are they homeschooling with a good amount of pushing? Whatever level a kid is at, school needs to be challenging and pushing. Because it's not just "they do the normal path so obviously we should push them for a high level", or "they'll forever be dependent so we'll just let them be happy here at home" but even people who never will be independent, the more skills they can get, aimed at the life they WILL likely have, the better off they will be, better able to talk to roommates, express their wishes to staff, better able to enjoy recreational sports and crafts, better able to interact with friends, whatever it is. Because yeah, eventually they WILL move out somewhere as adults. Maybe with a sibling, but maybe not. And they'll need friends.

I think she's just stretched thin.

I just want to point out that Hannah Claire "knowing what her sister needs" is taken out of context. I know that this isn't something I can prove to people on the internet, but they don't treat their kids like the j'slaves or anything close to that. Anthony and Adeye raise the children. Period. If an older helps out, it is because they want to.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

That I don't doubt. I think the "translate" thing just happens, from the posts about it they just came across as sort of "well, we're thankful that her sister understands" so sort of "takes some pressure off" sort of thing. Just from the blog, anyway.

[klf7412]

That I don't doubt. I think the "translate" thing just happens, from the posts about it they just came across as sort of "well, we're thankful that her sister understands" so sort of "takes some pressure off" sort of thing. Just from the blog, anyway.

DO you mean that you disagree, and that you don't doubt that Hannah Claire is a bit like the J'slaves? Or that you don't doubt that Anthony and Adeye to the primary raising? (Sorry! Am a bit confused!)

[klf7412]

Oh and sorry for the double post but I am pretty sure Adeye accepts all FB requests from blog readers.. If you guys are interested in pics of Haven recently, she just posted one on FB.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

DO you mean that you disagree, and that you don't doubt that Hannah Claire is a bit like the J'slaves? Or that you don't doubt that Anthony and Adeye to the primary raising? (Sorry! Am a bit confused!)

I mean I don't doubt you when you say that she does the raising, and I do think she means well, and I think she loves the kids. It just seems that she has taken on a gigantic task, that she's (inevitably!) stretched very thin, and that in some ways she seems very naive about it all.

Love is a great thing. Optimism can be good. But let's just say we come from very different worlds, so all the "Jesus will provide!" stuff just seems VERY Pollyanna. Love doesn't actually heal all, even while love is necessary. And kids aren't kids forever, they won't be with her forever, so what then?

I do think that having someone in the house who seems to (as per the blog) "just know what her sister wants" takes some of the pressure off of Mom and so inevitably she relies on it. Who wouldn't? I don't think that Mom is forcing anything.

[So Many Lies]

Can I just ask what the odds are of all of these children being given Western/European names like Sarah and Emma at birth? I can't help but think that these people are assigning new names to 10 year olds, which seems awful, for myriad reasons.

Eta: holy shit, and now having read the linked blog post- that is a LOT of medical conditions. Jumping from surgery to surgery on an almost weekly basis? Shit. Also (not to start an off-topic debate or anything) I am appalled that they circumsized 3 and 5 year old boys. Seems like a rough thing to do to children who already have a sense of their bodies, and for no real reason. Welcome to your new home, kids! Here are your new siblings, your new culture, your new language, (possibly) your new names, your new parents, and your new penises!

Agree with all this. It was not compassionate to circumsize those kids. Seriously wtf. :shock:

[chaotic life]

IMO, regardless of what decision parents make to circumcise infants or not, the idea of circumcizing older, new adoptees is HORRIFYING to me.

However, the idea of changing an older child's name and Americanizing them to fit in horrifies me just as much. I gave my boys middle names and they took our last name. The only one who changed his name I had changed it legally for security and intended to call him his birthname but HE opted to not go by that name.

But hey, what do I know about integrading and dropping a child's history, my oldest just made a 1.5 hour call to another continent last night because we accidentally re-found his birthfamily and I have always encouraged my kids to hold onto their history as well as their futures. Instead of feeling threatened, I marveled that after a decade he could instantly slip back into his native language and back and forth into English.

[LilMissMetaphor]

However, the idea of changing an older child's name and Americanizing them to fit in horrifies me just as much. I gave my boys middle names and they took our last name. The only one who changed his name I had changed it legally for security and intended to call him his birthname but HE opted to not go by that name.

But hey, what do I know about integrading and dropping a child's history, my oldest just made a 1.5 hour call to another continent last night because we accidentally re-found his birthfamily and I have always encouraged my kids to hold onto their history as well as their futures. Instead of feeling threatened, I marveled that after a decade he could instantly slip back into his native language and back and forth into English.

Yeah, me too. This probably belongs on the Ashley Lancaster thread, but:

Liam will have at least one sibling (Evy Kate) that does not have a Korean name and he will most likely have at least one more biological sibling that doesn't have a Korean name. We want to make Liam's presence in our family as seamless as possible in that there aren't unnecessary hurdles he has to jump emotionally.

What does that even mean?? He doesn't LOOK like you, you dumbasses. You think sticking a new name on him is going to help him blend in seamlessly? It's not even as if she adopted him when he was a newborn and didn't know his name. He was a toddler.

Pisses me off.

Here's the whole post where she blathers on about how changing his name was the right choice FOR THEM.

ouradoptiontapestry.blogspot.ca/2011/03/for-us.html

[LilMissMetaphor]

Adeye has updated about Haven.

It's about what you might expect. Haven doesn't talk and THAT'S OKAY!!

[chaotic life]

Adeye's updates on Haven are nothing but lather, rinse, repeat of the identical information that was recycled the last time she "updated" on Haven. There are no meaningful changes on Haven. She sounds as lost in her autistic world as she was previously and since they still insist it's nothing but PTSD and won't even acknowledge the autism, even as she describes CLASSIC autism behaviors, there's little progress to BE made.

[LilMissMetaphor]

Adeye's updates on Haven are nothing but lather, rinse, repeat of the identical information that was recycled the last time she "updated" on Haven. There are no meaningful changes on Haven. She sounds as lost in her autistic world as she was previously and since they still insist it's nothing but PTSD and won't even acknowledge the autism, even as she describes CLASSIC autism behaviors, there's little progress to BE made.

But chaotic life, that's okay because Jesus.

[Joan of Snarc]

I almost thought it was the same update! I thought I was reading in the wrong place!

She did say Haven has advanced to 100-piece puzzles. Wasn't it 12-piece puzzles the last time she updated? And she did say she's doing a little better with her hygiene and will go get her own glass of water now. So, I'm happy to hear that Haven has made a little progress. It sounds like she has a lot of fun with Hailey and Harper, too.

I wonder if she still sticks like glue to Hannah-Claire? Maybe since Hannah-Claire is out of the house a couple days a week now with that co-op or whatever it is, Haven has been forced to make some adjustments, which have actually aided her progress. That would be a win-win.

[patsymae]

"Eta: holy shit, and now having read the linked blog post- that is a LOT of medical conditions. Jumping from surgery to surgery on an almost weekly basis? Shit. Also (not to start an off-topic debate or anything) I am appalled that they circumsized 3 and 5 year old boys. Seems like a rough thing to do to children who already have a sense of their bodies, and for no real reason. Welcome to your new home, kids! Here are your new siblings, your new culture, your new language, (possibly) your new names, your new parents, and your new penises!"

And any possible problems the children could have (because the problems are the chldren's, and not the parents', or the whole sick situation) will be attributed to RAD.

[Sarietty]

Yeah, me too. This probably belongs on the Ashley Lancaster thread, but:

What does that even mean?? He doesn't LOOK like you, you dumbasses. You think sticking a new name on him is going to help him blend in seamlessly? It's not even as if she adopted him when he was a newborn and didn't know his name. He was a toddler.

Pisses me off.

Here's the whole post where she blathers on about how changing his name was the right choice FOR THEM.

ouradoptiontapestry.blogspot.ca/2011/03/for-us.html

One thing that strikes me about the quote from Ashley you posted is that she refers to Liam's (theoretical, at that point) non-adopted brother or sister as his biological sibling. What does Ashley think biological means? It's clear that she hasn't researched enough about adoption to understand that terminology is important. A child she has with her husband will not be Liam's biological sibling, and she's creating emotional hurdles for him to jump through by implying that non-biological = less than.

With that said, I do think there are understandable reasons for wanting to give a baby or young child's name in a culture he or she is going to be raised in, and that older children should have the option to do so if they want. A child who already looks different from his family members may not want to go by a name that emphasizes that he is from another culture, particularly when he is a teenager. It can be hurtful to constantly be mistaken as the friend or babysitting charge who is tagging along with the family, not really part of the family itself. A culturally familiar name can lessen that chance somewhat.

There are compassionate ways to go about a name change, of course - choosing an alternate name with a similar sound or meaning to the child's original name, keeping the original name as part of the legal name, and calling the child whatever name he or she prefers. Thoughtful parents with their child's best interests at heart can come to different conclusions on this issue. But "what's best for us" should never be a primary concern when making a decision that will have the biggest impact on the child. Especially when "what's best for us" refers to an adoptive parent's desire to choose a name that's "cute" or obliterate a child's connection to his or her first family and culture.

[ILoveJellybeans]

http://stfubelievers.tumblr.com/post/47 ... y-newsfeed (dont need to break link, I think I actually found this forum through a comment on one of the posts a while ago)

This sums up the fundie child collector mentality, and is also kinda racist and offensive :o

[chaotic life]

Ugh, ugh, UGH. Found another collector. stillwaterjulee.blogspot.com

Fourteen children in her home, significant special needs, spent years adopting and being resentful of her kids because they did NOT have Down's Syndrome. Just brought two toddlers home from China a few months ago and are already working on another China adoption....which is apparently the ONLY reason to take a family picture (how very SAD of a statement to your children that the only thing worthy of capturing their place in your family is your own insatiable need to adopt yet another item for your collection). They celebrated their travel date for this last adoption by eating Chinese food. RIGHT because adopting children with signficant special needs from China merely requires you take them to a Chinese restraurant to learn culture.

:disgust: :ew: :disgust:

[ILoveJellybeans]

Wow, she bought home 6 children in 4 years, 3 within 18 months of her son's death (was she trying to replace him or something?)

How can someone care for 14 children (with a lot of them having special needs), I think there comes a limit to how many children one or two people can take care of on their own.

How are these children getting time to adjust being in a new home when theyre adopting more than one child a year?

I think if when you have just added a new child to the family and you are already thinking of when youre going to add another, youre doing it wrong.

[chaotic life]

IME, you cannot bond with and meet all of the needs of that many children, that many diverse special needs and that fast of adding them. It's absolutely impossible, thus why they become collectors.

I've only ever adopted one child at a time. With our first two adoptions, we were open to siblings as we had fewer children *in* the home, but it never happened that we adopted more than one child at a time. In four adoptions, it took six months to feel like you can stand on your own two feet again. This is a sentiment expressed over and over and over again by experienced adoptive mothers. It takes a YEAR to feel like you're reaching equilibrium with a child without trouble attaching and bonding or significant medical needs. For my kids who had attachment issues, it took a full two years for them to feel attached me to me AND for me to feel attached to them completely. That doesn't mean their behaviors and struggles were resolved in two years. In fact, not one of my kiddos had their issues resolved within two years but by then I never had the sensation that I was their nanny instead of their mother as we worked on it together.

There's absolutely no way to bond and help a child with both their medical needs and their emotional void the way she's doing it.

Furthermore, I have only parented ONE child with the level of medical needs that most of her children have. My one medically fragile child took the committment, patience and love of his ENTIRE family to support him and protect him. Parenting all eight of his siblings feels like child's play compare to the effort and energy it took to parent Micah. When he died, I used to wake up at night in a dead panic that I had forgotten to take care of him. The world had to always accomodate his needs. We're starting to go back to going places, going to church, taking trips to museums and things just NOW. We're all realizing that as Micah got sicker, we had to face a choice of leaving him behind to live our lives, or stop living our lives to stay with him. We stopped living our lives because no one was willing to leave him behind. There is absolutely NO WAY a family with that many children with that many special needs can EVER meet all of the needs of those children. Bio and foster parents who end up with multiple children with those level of needs are given nurse aides and home health nurses. The danger of utilizing that type of staffing as an adoptive parent is that you simply become the director of your own orphanage and not the mother of your children.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

They celebrated their travel date for this last adoption by eating Chinese food. RIGHT because adopting children with signficant special needs from China merely requires you take them to a Chinese restraurant to learn culture.

:disgust: :ew: :disgust:

Wow. Not gonna lie, this sort of thing probably makes me more angry than perhaps it should. Just... argh. That's even BEFORE we get to the special needs part and the 14 of them part.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Just heard on the radio that "Fresh Air" with Terry Gross today is going to have a segment on evangelical foreign adoptions, reviewing a book "The Child Catchers: Rescue, Trafficking, and the New Gospel of Adoption."

"Fresh Air" puts their content up as podcasts/mp3 download after the show, if people are interested. I think I'll give it a listen later tonight.

[wild and free]

I was under the impression that the school Adeye's children go to is a University Model school not a coop - but I could be wrong.

[dianapavelovna]

Oh yay, someone else posted in this thread, so I can talk about Adeye without seeming like a stalker! 8-)

She & hubs are leaving their fragile, just adopted children and flying across the country to encourage more people to follow their lead. I frickin' hate the way she describes every poor choice she makes as divinely inspired:

We've been preparing to leave for Summit in just a few days! Getting schedules, food, medications and everything else ready at home for those who will care for our blessings while we're away is a fine art, I tell you. Making a list and checking it fifty times. Leaving is hard for me. I keep having to remind myself that when God opens a door, we must walk through it. This is one of those times for me--an open door and the obedience to say yes--even though being away from my kids is one of the hardest things for me. "Yes, Lord!"

nogreaterjoymom.com/2013/04/random-tidbits.html

Also, she says she is going to "share her thoughts" about the Mother Jones/Joyce article on the Campbells. Y'all know I can't frickin' wait for that. :nenner:

Meanwhile, Jean at There's No Place Like Home is making me like her more and more in spite of myself. She recently posted that she is struggling to homeschool all their children, so they are putting some of their kids in public school.