Checkmate, Pro-Choicers

[emmiedahl]

NOt only that, but isn't the fine for causing a woman to miscarry/lose a fetus less than killing an infant or child?

Yeah, taking a life is a capital offense in the Bible: an eye for an eye. Causing a miscarriage is a property crime, requiring a fine.

[treemom]

.....Because that shows how desperate for an abortion a woman can get?? Does she think that wire hangers and knitting needles must be safe too, then?

She doesn't even seem to understand how logic and thoughts work. Is this an argument for back alley abortions?

She has the dumb.

[Minerva]

As a pro-lifer, I don't see and even remotely valid arguments on what little of that site I bothered to read. At baby doesn't have all the organs and nerves and everything right at conception. There's no brain stem at 4 weeks. That is as dumb as saying that if a baby can breathe at 40 weeks, it can breathe at 4 weeks. That is the single stupidest reason I've ever heard for being pro-life, even stupider than "because the bible says so." Really they're both as stupid, but I've heard the latter so much that I'm desensitized to it. Babies DO feel before birth. No one can say Josie wasn't capable of feeling when she was born, or that she shouldn't have been saved. But she had a nervous system that was developed and a brain and everything necessary to feel pain. At 4 weeks of pregnancy, realistically you're 1-2 weeks post-conception since the first part of pregnancy is before conception (so by default we're all 2 weeks pregnant every month).

Arguments the likes of which are found on Checkmate are why I was frequently embarrassed back in my anti-abortion days. As for babies feeling before birth, I'm impressed that Rebecca (the blogger at Checkmate) conceded that pro-choicers are aware of that. Considering the amount of kool-aid she's chugged, I'm very surprised she doesn't believe the ol' myth that we think fetuses magically become conscious/acquire human DNA/grow arms and legs at the moment of birth. That and her knowledge that Margaret Sanger was anti-abortion make me understand why so many people are calling it a parody.

ETA and the fact that she has access to tumblr despite being a SAHD. Tumblr has n*dity.

[Sunnichick31]

That's why my incredibly pro life grandmother thinks that outlawing abortions is the stupidest idea ever. She says "i'd rather someone get one safely and I disagree with them morally with what they did, than 2 people die in the process"

Pretty progressive for an 90 year old arch conservative....

This is exactly how I feel. I don't like abortion, but since it WILL happen no matter what, having safe, legal abortions performed by a trained proffesional is far, FAR better than having a botched abortion with a coat hanger and some instructions from Google and I will always vote to make sure abortion stays legal and accessable.

[Sola]

I don't see that -- where is it?

Her latest post uses the words "defrauding pictures," though! :lol:

June 3rd entry, a few pages back.

http://checkmateprochoicers.tumblr.com/ ... fetus-does

[thoughtful]

June 3rd entry, a few pages back.

http://checkmateprochoicers.tumblr.com/ ... fetus-does

Thanks.

[Elle]

Why are you pro-life?

I absolutely can not stand how no consideration is given to pain the baby feels when it's killed. While I don't think babies should be killed (and that men should have an out too if they're not ready to be dads), I'd jump the other side if there was a mandate that the baby be given an injection of anesthesia beforehand to ensure there's no pain. If the death penalty for people who rape kids and then kill them can be halted on the concern the raping murdered might feel some pain, then why are we not edging on the side of caution to ensure there's no pain for an unborn baby who didn't do anything wrong?

[Elle]

Arguments the likes of which are found on Checkmate are why I was frequently embarrassed back in my anti-abortion days. As for babies feeling before birth, I'm impressed that Rebecca (the blogger at Checkmate) conceded that pro-choicers are aware of that. Considering the amount of kool-aid she's chugged, I'm very surprised she doesn't believe the ol' myth that we think fetuses magically become conscious/acquire human DNA/grow arms and legs at the moment of birth. That and her knowledge that Margaret Sanger was anti-abortion make me understand why so many people are calling it a parody.

ETA and the fact that she has access to tumblr despite being a SAHD. Tumblr has n*dity.

I've known ONE pro-choicer who believed that a baby has no ability to feel until air touches the skin, like how a baby doesn't take its first breath of oxygen until birth.

[treemom]

I absolutely can not stand how no consideration is given to pain the baby feels when it's killed. While I don't think babies should be killed (and that men should have an out too if they're not ready to be dads), I'd jump the other side if there was a mandate that the baby be given an injection of anesthesia beforehand to ensure there's no pain. If the death penalty for people who rape kids and then kill them can be halted on the concern the raping murdered might feel some pain, then why are we not edging on the side of caution to ensure there's no pain for an unborn baby who didn't do anything wrong?

When do you think this exactly happens? Because I watched my own termination, i can assure you there was no silent scream, no sign of discomfort or pain and as I have said ad nauseum, I had a later term abortion. I am willing to assume that some of this was because of the disorder, but not all of it could have been.

I actually can see what you are saying, but I am not sure I can work out the medical logistics on how it works. It falls under a category 'I could get behind it if it worked somehow' but not anything that moves my position of choice at all times, for all reasons.

[sassycupcake]

I absolutely can not stand how no consideration is given to pain the baby feels when it's killed. While I don't think babies should be killed (and that men should have an out too if they're not ready to be dads), I'd jump the other side if there was a mandate that the baby be given an injection of anesthesia beforehand to ensure there's no pain. If the death penalty for people who rape kids and then kill them can be halted on the concern the raping murdered might feel some pain, then why are we not edging on the side of caution to ensure there's no pain for an unborn baby who didn't do anything wrong?

No consideration is given to fetal pain in routine abortions because the neural connections in the fetal brain are not established to the point of being able to experience pain prior to 24 weeks. Current evidence also suggests that the fetus does not achieve consciousness in utero, especially early in pregnancy, and therefore could not experience pain even if it had a sufficiently developed nervous system

Source: http://www.rcog.org.uk/files/rcog-corp/ ... PR0610.pdf

Less than 1.5% of U.S. abortions take place after 21 weeks, so fetal pain is not an issue for the vast majority of terminations.

Source: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

[Minerva]

I've known ONE pro-choicer who believed that a baby has no ability to feel until air touches the skin, like how a baby doesn't take its first breath of oxygen until birth.

There is a theory among certain medical professionals that something in the amniotic fluid acts as an anesthetic, but it's far from proven. Maybe that's where your acquaintance gets that idea from? As it stands, the entire third trimester is a big grey area in terms of whether/what fetuses can feel. Some consider the last 2-ish weeks of the 2nd trimester as being in that grey area, too.

[treemom]

There is a theory among certain medical professionals that something in the amniotic fluid acts as an anesthetic, but it's far from proven. Maybe that's where your acquaintance gets that idea from? As it stands, the entire third trimester is a big grey area in terms of whether/what fetuses can feel. Some consider the last 2-ish weeks of the 2nd trimester as being in that grey area, too.

It is in a grey area, but since those terminations are totally different beasts in regulation and sometimes how they are performed it does seem silly to act on that.

[jaynie]

No consideration is given to fetal pain in routine abortions because the neural connections in the fetal brain are not established to the point of being able to experience pain prior to 24 weeks. Current evidence also suggests that the fetus does not achieve consciousness in utero, especially early in pregnancy, and therefore could not experience pain even if it had a sufficiently developed nervous system

Source: http://www.rcog.org.uk/files/rcog-corp/ ... PR0610.pdf

Less than 1.5% of U.S. abortions take place after 21 weeks, so fetal pain is not an issue for the vast majority of terminations.

Source: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

In fact, over half of all abortions take place before 8 weeks (http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion ... n_who.html). This is well before the embryo (not even medically a fetus until the end of that period, apparently) has anything like the equiptment to feel pain, so anaesthetizing it would be unnecessarily costly and probably unnecessarily risky to the pregnant woman. That said, they look, fetal pain has been researched quite thorougly! So this "no consideration" idea seems dubious at best.

Aside from which, even if embryos could feel pain from the moment of conception (which is frankly ridiculous, though it seems to be a commonly held belief), wouldn't it be less painful for them to be aborted in a legal, safe, efficient procedure than in a back alley with a coat hanger? At least it would be quick and precise.

[valsa]

No consideration is given to fetal pain in routine abortions because the neural connections in the fetal brain are not established to the point of being able to experience pain prior to 24 weeks. Current evidence also suggests that the fetus does not achieve consciousness in utero, especially early in pregnancy, and therefore could not experience pain even if it had a sufficiently developed nervous system

Source: http://www.rcog.org.uk/files/rcog-corp/ ... PR0610.pdf

Less than 1.5% of U.S. abortions take place after 21 weeks, so fetal pain is not an issue for the vast majority of terminations.

Source: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Give it up. Elle has been presented with these facts more than once (hell, more than once by me alone) and still refuses to reconsider her "OMG, babeez feel pain!!1!!" stance.

Regarding third trimester fetuses in general, it is theorized that the environment of the womb puts the fetus into a state kind of like someone undergoing a type of sedation called "conscious sedation". They can react physically to painful stimuli but don't have a conscious perception of the pain itself.

[formergothardite]

Elle is the one that proudly spanks right?

[emmiedahl]

Elle is the one that proudly spanks right?

Yup. Because unspanked children run in the road. (looks around at five children who are not in road and raises eyebrow)

[Sunnichick31]

and that men should have an out too if they're not ready to be dads)

Who says men dno't have an out? My dad left when mom found out that she was pregnant and dispite repeated attempts to get child support (several of which DID involve lawyers) he rarely paid. It wasn't till high school that he even pretended to care about mom or I. In my experience, men can get out of fatherhood if they want.

[emmiedahl]

My dad hardly ever paid child support. When the DA caught up with him, he would switch jobs and work there until they figured out where he was working.

I was close to my dad, but I was the only child OUT OF FOUR that he visited. I still remember the look on my brothers' faces when I was packing to spend a summer with him. And they weren't. Because I was the child he wanted. And they weren't.

Men don't have a way out? All they have to do is not visit or pay the money. It is literally that easy. My mother and stepfather (who is my *real* papa, the one who washed my clothes and wiped my tears and taught me algebra) were left with the fall-out and the day-to-day support of 4 children, one of whom my dad took occasionally on summers. Me.

[Terrie]

I just find it telling that they don't worry about babies feeling pain during birth.

[Minerva]

I just find it telling that they don't worry about babies feeling pain during birth.

May I ask what about birth is painful for the baby? Is it that fontanelle thing?

[CanadianHippie]

May I ask what about birth is painful for the baby? Is it that fontanelle thing?

Head squishes, whole body squishes when the contractions start, and if they are like my dad a broken collar bone from getting stuck part way out.

[Minerva]

Head squishes, whole body squishes when the contractions start, and if they are like my dad a broken collar bone from getting stuck part way out.

:shock: Oh. Right, I'd forgotten they could break bones.

[Wolfie]

My dad hardly ever paid child support. When the DA caught up with him, he would switch jobs and work there until they figured out where he was working.

I was close to my dad, but I was the only child OUT OF FOUR that he visited. I still remember the look on my brothers' faces when I was packing to spend a summer with him. And they weren't. Because I was the child he wanted. And they weren't.

Men don't have a way out? All they have to do is not visit or pay the money. It is literally that easy. My mother and stepfather (who is my *real* papa, the one who washed my clothes and wiped my tears and taught me algebra) were left with the fall-out and the day-to-day support of 4 children, one of whom my dad took occasionally on summers. Me.

I have a college friend whose ex wife is pretty much ignoring their son, not coming to school events, not regularly paying child support and so on, even though she lives in the same town. So, once the child is born it can go either way.

[valsa]

Head squishes, whole body squishes when the contractions start, and if they are like my dad a broken collar bone from getting stuck part way out.

Good point. I assume Elle must believe in requiring pain medication be used on women during labor, for their babies... otherwise she would come across as a huge hypocrite.

[Guest Anonymous]

Good point. I assume Elle must believe in requiring pain medication be used on women during labor, for their babies... otherwise she would come across as a huge hypocrite.

Ahahahahahaha. Isn't she the one who hates doctors because they are out to give everyone a C-section by force? And she personally knows scads of people that this has happened to? Correct me if I'm wrong, when she gets going on the childbirth stuff I usually try to duck out of the thread before I put my head *through* my desk.