Checkmate, Pro-Choicers

[pomology]

Crisis Pregnancy Centers exist to convince women considering abortion to keep the baby, that is all. They lie, guilt, and pressure a woman into giving birth to a baby she never wanted in the first place. Prior to Roe v. Wade a wouldn't have gone into a Drs office to get a pregnancy test and told anyone there she was thinking of abortion. If there were no CPC's back then it's simply because the pro-lifer's never had face the fact that women were choosing abortion over carrying a child to term and that's all.

No, I know, but given the bolded I'm not sure what point she's trying to make.

[CanadianHippie]

No, I know, but given the bolded I'm not sure what point she's trying to make.

I think the point she's trying to make is that before Roe v. Wade all women who got pregnant either wanted to keep their baby or at least carry it to term and give it up for adoption.

[holothuroidea]

I know this argument is long over and there was a lot of TL;DR going on but I just want to say to Elle, you deserve a better place to live and your children deserve to be treated with respect. I am not going to call you a bad mother, it sounds like you don't have a lot of options. I hope that your situation improves for both you and your children.

It's not okay to hit people. If you believe that children are people, then it follows that it is not okay to hit children.

A lot of parents don't seem to think children are people. Except when they are fetuses. (Full circle back on topic, yeah!)

[Minerva]

Well here I go:

If a “zygote†is not a person at conception, but a baby is at birth, when does the magic Personhood Fairy come along?

*sigh* YOU are the one who believes in a magical personhood fairy, here. YOU are the one who thinks it's possible to know the moment personhood begins, and dictate your arbitrarily chosen moment. We don't believe in magic - just good laws that protect everyone's rights, including protecting them from being overridden by someone else's survival, and prevent suffering.

If everyone had abortion, there would be no more people.

If everyone lived in New York City, we'd all be crushed to death. Guess we'd better outlaw living in NYC. If everyone owned car lots, the economy would crash and burn. Better outlaw owning car lots. Even more fittingly, since it too ignores the fact that you can make different decisions at different points in your life: IF EVERYONE PRACTISED ABSTINENCE, THERE'D BE NO MORE PEOPLE!!!!1!!1

If you have time to have sex, you have time to get a job and support your new baby.

Clearly the words of someone who's never held down a job. It takes 20 minutes of free time to have sex. It takes at least 10 hours of free time per week to have a job. Most of the jobs one can easily get are NOT going to pay well enough to support a new baby.

Pro-lifers care about ALL WOMEN, not just the born ones.

A female fetus is not a woman. It's a fetus.

If there were a “gay gene,†it would be the pro-LIFERS defending the right to life of the gay babies and the “pro-CHOICERS†arguing that they should be killed.

Because we're totally the homophobic ones. Totally.

[CanadianHippie]

A female fetus is not a woman. It's a fetus.

And many pro-lifers don't care about the born ones, at least not once her life is in danger and the only thing that can save her is an abortion.

[muffynbear]

I couldn't resist:

It's a shame your mother didn't swallow. Why don't you use actual facts instead of using Bible verses for your so-called "logic". You don't control my uterus nor do you control any other woman's uterus. You have the right to be a sanctimonious twat- which is something you're quite good at it. So checkmate, twat.

[Maul the Koala]

Or they're stuck in a patriarchal society that they have no other choice but to get married and become a walking uterus. :evil:

Because they should be punished for having sex! Filthy whores, a pregnancy and raising a baby will teach you not to enjoy sex!

Ugh. Head meet desk.

[alba]

If you don’t want a baby, don’t spread your legs. It’s 100% effective in not making babies.

Slut-shaming is bad, m'kay?

NO woman (or man, for that matter) should be criticised or shamed for engaging in consensual sex. End of story.

Not to mention the fact that pregnancy isn't necessarily the product of consensual sex.

“What about the pain of childbirth?†Epidurals have been around since the 80s. You have no excuse not to pick adoption.

Epidurals are no use while the cervix is still dilating, which is PAINFUL. That doesn't even go into the fact that pregnancy itself is painful and giving a child up for adoption is for many women on the same emotional level as bereavement.

Can I just say how much I hate it when pro-lifers equate pro-choice with "abort ALL THE FETUSES"? I support every woman's right to decide whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term; that means I support her right to choose adoption or keeping the baby AS MUCH AS I support her right to abort it. In terms of sex-selective or sexual-orientation-selective abortion (if the latter existed, as she suggests), she, like many pro-lifers, approaches it from the wrong angle. Ending sex-selective abortion won't end misogyny; ending misogyny will end the vast majority of sex-selective abortion. Thus if you want to end sex-selective abortion, respect women's rights, including their rights over their own bodies.

[Minerva]

Epidurals are no use while the cervix is still dilating, which is PAINFUL. That doesn't even go into the fact that pregnancy itself is painful and giving a child up for adoption is for many women on the same emotional level as bereavement.

So many of these "checkmate pro-choicers" just scream SOTDRT. I can't believe someone this ignorant is 19.

[Terrie]

42) If abortion is as normal and acceptable as you claim, why are there so few movies and TV shows that show it?

Taking a shit is normal and acceptable ('cause if you don't, it's a serious medical issue), but we don't show THAT in movie and TV shows.

[Maul the Koala]

There are hundreds of movies and television shows that deal with abortion. Erica Kane on All My Children and the Cider House Rules are two I can think of.

[treemom]

And Maude and 90120

[dairyfreelife]

Not to mention the fact that pregnancy isn't necessarily the product of consensual sex.

Umm...actually it is. Sometimes it might be from non-consensual sex, but it's either one or the other. For the most part, pregnancy results from consensual sex. Having sex doesn't mean you'll get pregnant, but it you get pregnant, sex had to be involved.

If you don’t want a baby, don’t spread your legs. It’s 100% effective in not making babies.

Am I the only one who sees "don't spread your legs" and thinks about yoga and wonders how simply spreading my legs makes a baby? I guess so. ;)

So many of these "checkmate pro-choicers" just scream SOTDRT. I can't believe someone this ignorant is 19.

Well... I think it's normal for someone who's not been pregnant and hasn't seen anyone have one to not realize about epidurals. I'm 23 and I only know that epidurals only work during certain parts of labor or that it can cause problems after the fact sometimes, etc. because I used to watch A Baby Story. I learned quite about labor and delivery from that show. My public school health education really never taught that at all. I saw the very ends of a natural and c-section in health class, but that was it.

[bananacat]

Umm...actually it is. Sometimes it might be from non-consensual sex, but it's either one or the other. For the most part, pregnancy results from consensual sex. Having sex doesn't mean you'll get pregnant, but it you get pregnant, sex had to be involved.

Are you confused by the concept of "consensual"?

Well... I think it's normal for someone who's not been pregnant and hasn't seen anyone have one to not realize about epidurals. I'm 23 and I only know that epidurals only work during certain parts of labor or that it can cause problems after the fact sometimes, etc. because I used to watch A Baby Story. I learned quite about labor and delivery from that show. My public school health education really never taught that at all. I saw the very ends of a natural and c-section in health class, but that was it.

This is no excuse. Lots of people know about things that they haven't directly experienced. Lots of people who don't know things will be willing to rethink their stances when they learn new information. And any ethical person wouldn't try to make arguments based on things they know nothing about. I don't care how much some random person knows about epidurals. I do care that she's using it in arguments without bothering to take a second to learn about the topic. She should either research it or STFU about it. Ignorance isn't an excuse because she's acting like she knows everything.

[valsa]

Are you confused by the concept of "consensual"?

Also, consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

[holothuroidea]

Also, consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

If someone agrees to have sex without the knowledge of the chance there they will become pregnant (Even a 0.5% chance with BC, for example) and the responsibility that that pregnancy entails (adoption, abortion, raising the child), I would argue that that person has not truly consented.

[CanadianHippie]

And Maude and 90120

Vera Drake

[CanadianHippie]

Are you confused by the concept of "consensual"?

It seems she is...

If you don't agree to have sex, it's rape which is non-consensual. Rape is very much capable of getting a woman pregnant. All we can deduce from this is that a woman who has non-consensual sex can get pregnant.

Also... It is possible to get pregnant without having sex. It's called in vitro fertilization. No penis in vagina required at all.

[keeperrox]

I can hardly stand the delicious irony of being called a bitch by the Queen Bitch herself. Too funny!

But Elle, you're not a good mother. You're a bad mother and you hit children. Isolating them at home with you doesn't make you better; it makes you worse. You don't get bonus points or cookies for perpetuating the Mommy Wars. I know it's completely taboo to call someone a bad parent, but sometimes it just has to be said. I'm not gonna lie.

Like I said before, Elle is most likely a fundie lurker. I wonder which blog she comes from.

I liked it much better when Elle was on hiatus, because she was all butthurt when we didn't fawn all over that pet fundy of her's.

[dairyfreelife]

It seems she is...

If you don't agree to have sex, it's rape which is non-consensual. Rape is very much capable of getting a woman pregnant. All we can deduce from this is that a woman who has non-consensual sex can get pregnant.

Also... It is possible to get pregnant without having sex. It's called in vitro fertilization. No penis in vagina required at all.

Well no shit. I thought non-consensual sex=rape was obvious. Guess I was wrong to assume people here know that. And since most people who have IVF want to be pregnant, it's highly unlikely they'll abort. Outside of that, sex is required for a pregnancy to occur and it was either consensual or it wasn't. If it wasn't, it's rape. However, most women who get pregnant got that way through consensual sex. Consent equals a mutual agreement between parties amongst themselves to be specific.

[CanadianHippie]

Well no shit. I thought that was obvious that non-consent means rape. I guess that needs explained specifically. But since people have fertility treatments because they WANT to get pregnant, it's unlikely they'll abort. Outside of that, one can't get pregnant without sex and that sex was either consensual or it wasn't. For the most part woman who get pregnant do so through consensual sex. Consent to sex does not mean a woman has to consent to stay pregnant should a pregnancy occur.

As for Bananacat's comment, I did not defend her. I wasn't talking about Rebecca. I was responding the person who's quote you removed about the fact that 19yos should know about epidurals and to not know=bad schooling, which isn't true. It didn't have to do with Rebecca's ignorance, just that SOTDRT isn't the reason she might be ignorant on epidural facts. Everyone makes mistakes, but it's not like Rebecca will fix hers and apologize or admit she does not know about birth or labor or pregnancy. We all are aware she's a know-it-all who doesn't really know much of anything.

I didn't remove anything personally. Nothing I quoted has jackshit to do with epidurals. And you did write, and I quote (again), in repsonse to pregnancy not always the result of consensual sex:

Umm...actually it is.

[Minerva]

Well no shit. I thought non-consensual sex=rape was obvious. Guess I was wrong to assume people here know that. And since most people who have IVF want to be pregnant, it's highly unlikely they'll abort. Outside of that, sex is required for a pregnancy to occur and it was either consensual or it wasn't. If it wasn't, it's rape. However, most women who get pregnant got that way through consensual sex. Consent equals a mutual agreement between parties amongst themselves to be specific.

People do abort planned pregnancies when things change like a job is lost, a partner gets deployed, etc. The thing that makes IVF different is that you spent an arm and a leg on it.

[Maul the Koala]

And you do get people who abort after undergoing IVF. I can't remember the website but it was the stories of parents who decided to terminate due to the fetus having birth defects. There were a few stories where IVF families chose to terminate. I can't fault them for that. If I got a diagnosis where there was a high chance of stillbirth or unlikely that the child would live more than a few days, I'm not going to carry the pregnancy to term. It's fine if other people do but I don't want the choice decided for me.

[PennySycamore]

Vera Drake

Up the Down Staircase had a plot line about the aftermath of a student's illegal abortion. The student was noted on the daily attendance sheet to have died of an AB which she had induced with a knitting needle, I think. This was in the book; don't know if it made it to the screen.

Love With The Proper Stranger had Natalie Wood seeking an illegal abortion. She didn't go through with the termination, though, when she saw how dangerous and dirty the procedure was. Mad Men has also had a plot line about illegal abortion although it would have occurred in a doctor's office. Joan Holloway decided to have her baby. She'd already had several abortions.

There were some films in the pre-Code era that dealt fairly frankly with abortion, but their names escape me at the moment. Abortion was one of the things banned by the code.

edited for riffle

[lilah]

14) Lots of parents wait YEARS to adopt a baby because there aren’t enough children.

No, there just aren’t enough healthy white infants. And as much as I might feel for those parents, it is nobody else’s responsibility to carry children to term for their sake.

In almost every adoption there's lots of time spent processing forms, getting home studies and dealing with other red tape even if the baby isn't white. Shocker!

15) Which would rather have? Motherhood or BREAST CANCER?

I was not aware it was an either/or decision. Many mothers have had breast cancer. I also have no idea what this has to do with abortion.

Anti-women anti-choices have made an argument that because having a baby can reduce a woman's chance of getting breast cancer, ergo having an abortion increases your chance of breast cancer. Even though there's no direct link between having an abortion and having breast cancer, in some states doctors are forced to tell women there's a link between abortions and breast cancer even though no peer-reviewed scientific study can actually prove a real link that a causes b.

19) If most people getting abortions are poor, why don’t they just get welfare? More babies= more money. Everyone wins.

Babies are not the same as free money.

Weird to see a pro-lifer who is pro-welfare. Weird.

24) Being pregnant means no periods for nine months! How could you say no to that?

Being pregnant is one of the few things that sounds worse than nine periods.

Clearly this was written by a teenager who has no idea what it's like to be pregnant. Just about everything I've heard about the average pregnancy makes even difficult periods seem like a total picnic.

44) If you have time to have sex, you have time to get a job and support your new baby.

Not necessarily and irrelavent.

Yeah it's so easy to get a job when you're pregnant or mom to a newborn, you have scads of energy and time to start a new job and if you're a mom of a newborn you have scads of time to work! And in our economy it's so easy to get a job that pays a living wage so you don't need welfare! Well tumblr writer it wasn't like you'er anti-welfare.