Checkmate, Pro-Choicers

[SomewhatFundy]

No prob. I am terrible with screen names, so I get posters on various message boards mixed up all the time.

Anywho, after reading some of the RSS on that site I have to think that the "checkmate" author is a joke. But then there are a few things she's posted that make me think "well, maybe not".

I hope it is a joke anyway. It's one thing to have an opinion, but this person honestly terrifies me. I noticed there were even a few pro-lifers on there calling her out. If your own kind think you are nuts, maybe there is a problem.

[Elle]

Popping a fully-clothed butt with an open palm (after three warnings) doesn't hurt, but gets the message across that a behavior is not acceptable. Not all children respond solely to positive reinforcement or to just being redirected. How nice for those of you who have separate rooms in your home and children who are content being given a different toy when what they want is something they aren't allowed to play with. I wish those of you who have or have had toddlers could have spent even one month living in as tiny of a place as my family lives, with no separate rooms, and very limited space to "just put stuff up." You can only toddler-proof 200-ish square feet of space (and no yard or porch or anything to store stuff) so much and be realistic about it, especially when you literally do not have separate rooms or the ability to put up doors anywhere and the walls are not the type you can just put shelves on. It would be so much easier to not see a need to ever spank if you can just set a toddler in their safe little bedroom and close the door if they're throwing a hissy fit over not being allowed to pull shit out if the kitchen drawers than it is when you don't have another room to put a toddler in to let them cool off.

It's incredibly foolish to think that a non-hurting open-palmed swat to a clothed bottom (if it doesn't hurt my hand, it's not hurting her) and whipping a child with pipe are the same, or that it's the same as ripping apart a living being with the ability to feel. That is so fucking stupid. This issue isn't black and white. There are shades of grey. Many of you snark fundies who only see the world in black and white without realizing you're plenty guilty of it yourselves and that, like the fundies, you like to pretend you are the expert in a given subject and know the one and only right way to do it and if you only do it right, then you're sure to succeed. Hmm, follow your method of raising kids and yore sure to succeed, or follow the bible close enough and nothing bad can happen, and failure means you personally fucked up along the way.

[Anise]

Popping a fully-clothed butt with an open palm (after three warnings) doesn't hurt, but gets the message across that a behavior is not acceptable.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I would like to note, however, that not all potential damage from spanking is physical- there is an emotional aspect to being hit in any sense of the meaning by someone who is supposed to be a figure of love and trust.

[hapamama]

Anyone see the "9 months with no periods!" one? This girl has obviously never been pregnant. And I say that as someone who has never been pregnant. I'd take 9 periods over the side-effects of a healthy pregnancy any day. And I have bad periods.

With 4 of my 5 pregnancies, I had awful morning sickness... no fun. Periods are a cakewalk compared to that.

Sure, you may go 9 months without a period, but lochia and after pains after delivery make my worst periods look like that cakewalk.

[valsa]

Popping a fully-clothed butt with an open palm (after three warnings) doesn't hurt, but gets the message across that a behavior is not acceptable. Not all children respond solely to positive reinforcement or to just being redirected. How nice for those of you who have separate rooms in your home and children who are content being given a different toy when what they want is something they aren't allowed to play with. I wish those of you who have or have had toddlers could have spent even one month living in as tiny of a place as my family lives, with no separate rooms, and very limited space to "just put stuff up." You can only toddler-proof 200-ish square feet of space (and no yard or porch or anything to store stuff) so much and be realistic about it, especially when you literally do not have separate rooms or the ability to put up doors anywhere and the walls are not the type you can just put shelves on. It would be so much easier to not see a need to ever spank if you can just set a toddler in their safe little bedroom and close the door if they're throwing a hissy fit over not being allowed to pull shit out if the kitchen drawers than it is when you don't have another room to put a toddler in to let them cool off.

It's incredibly foolish to think that a non-hurting open-palmed swat to a clothed bottom (if it doesn't hurt my hand, it's not hurting her) and whipping a child with pipe are the same, or that it's the same as ripping apart a living being with the ability to feel. That is so fucking stupid. This issue isn't black and white. There are shades of grey. Many of you snark fundies who only see the world in black and white without realizing you're plenty guilty of it yourselves and that, like the fundies, you like to pretend you are the expert in a given subject and know the one and only right way to do it and if you only do it right, then you're sure to succeed. Hmm, follow your method of raising kids and yore sure to succeed, or follow the bible close enough and nothing bad can happen, and failure means you personally fucked up along the way.

None of the wall of butthurt you just posted changes the fact that you are hitting a child.

[luckystone]

This site must be an elaborate joke?! Someone asks if they're inspired by Colbert, and they ask if that's some kind of preacher...

[BlondeAgent007]

I wish those of you who have or have had toddlers could have spent even one month living in as tiny of a place as my family lives, with no separate rooms, and very limited space to "just put stuff up." You can only toddler-proof 200-ish square feet of space (and no yard or porch or anything to store stuff) so much and be realistic about it, especially when you literally do not have separate rooms or the ability to put up doors anywhere and the walls are not the type you can just put shelves on. It would be so much easier to not see a need to ever spank if you can just set a toddler in their safe little bedroom and close the door if they're throwing a hissy fit over not being allowed to pull shit out if the kitchen drawers than it is when you don't have another room to put a toddler in to let them cool off.

You live in a 200 square foot place? I think you need to start an "ask me" thread. i thought emily was pushing it with her 450 square foot apartment. Holy smokes!!! I think my bedroom at my parents house is about that size. is your kitchen, sleeping area, and living area really all in the same room?

[Minerva]

I prefer that abortion for reasons of birth control be performed prior to 24 weeks

They are.

[Gizmola]

None of the wall of butthurt you just posted changes the fact that you are hitting a child.

:clap: Valsa, have I told you lately that I love you??

[CanadianHippie]

You live in a 200 square foot place? I think you need to start an "ask me" thread. i thought emily was pushing it with her 450 square foot apartment. Holy smokes!!! I think my bedroom at my parents house is about that size. is your kitchen, sleeping area, and living area really all in the same room?

And really, if the place is only 200 square feet how far from you can a toddler really get before you notice?

[ilovetchotchkes]

With 4 of my 5 pregnancies, I had awful morning sickness... no fun. Periods are a cakewalk compared to that.

Sure, you may go 9 months without a period, but lochia and after pains after delivery make my worst periods look like that cakewalk.

And I'm the opposite..... I would rather be pregnant than have my period. Though, mine is accompanied by joint pain that's very similar to what RA sufferers endure. And then the cramps that are so bad they leave me dry heaving....

And I can't get meds for it either. Hormonal birth control triggers migranes and any pain meds that actually work nobody will give me. Let's put it this way, viccodin doesn't even touch it. With my son I got an almost 2 year reprieve because I breastfed. W girl fetus I'm hoping for similar, and if we get pregnant again, or choose to stop, is bad enough I will strongly consider a hysterectomy.

[Childless]

How does one teach a child not to hit if they in turn hit them? That's what always confused me with regard to spanking. Right now, my 19 month old son has taken to hitting me or my husband when he doesn't get his way or gets angry. How can I say it's wrong to do that when I turn around and hit him when he's misbehaving? It would make me a hypocrite and wouldn't teach my child anything other than the fact that mommy lies when she says hitting is bad.

Back to the thread though, I've had an abortion. It was the best decision I ever made and I have no regrets about it at all. I would have lost my ability to reproduce if I had not had it and my son wouldn't be here today. So, I'm one of those women who does not regret my decision and would make the same choice if the situation happened again.

[Minerva]

How does one teach a child not to hit if they in turn hit them? That's what always confused me with regard to spanking. Right now, my 19 month old son has taken to hitting me or my husband when he doesn't get his way or gets angry. How can I say it's wrong to do that when I turn around and hit him when he's misbehaving? It would make me a hypocrite and wouldn't teach my child anything other than the fact that mommy lies when she says hitting is bad.

Back to the thread though, I've had an abortion. It was the best decision I ever made and I have no regrets about it at all. I would have lost my ability to reproduce if I had not had it and my son wouldn't be here today. So, I'm one of those women who does not regret my decision and would make the same choice if the situation happened again.

My parents hit me when I was a toddler and they subsequently had a major problem with me hitting my brother quite hard whenever he did something I didn't like. It took them awhile, but they eventually figured out where I was getting the idea from.

[freejoytoo]

If an adult hits a fellow adult it's assault but it's okay to hit someone younger and more vulnerable than you? And then we teach them not to hit?

[Maude]

Popping a fully-clothed butt with an open palm (after three warnings) doesn't hurt, but gets the message across that a behavior is not acceptable.

...

It's incredibly foolish to think that a non-hurting open-palmed swat to a clothed bottom (if it doesn't hurt my hand, it's not hurting her)...

If the swat doesn't hurt, how exactly is it 'getting the message across?' I'm genuinely curious because I always thought the purpose of spanking was to cause pain and/or humiliation to deter bad behaviour.

Not all children respond solely to positive reinforcement or to just being redirected. How nice for those of you who have separate rooms in your home and children who are content being given a different toy when what they want is something they aren't allowed to play with. I wish those of you who have or have had toddlers could have spent even one month living in as tiny of a place as my family lives, with no separate rooms, and very limited space to "just put stuff up." ... It would be so much easier to not see a need to ever spank if you can just set a toddler in their safe little bedroom and close the door if they're throwing a hissy fit over not being allowed to pull shit out if the kitchen drawers than it is when you don't have another room to put a toddler in to let them cool off.

Designating a chair or a corner of a room for time-outs or 'cooling off' periods would work just the same.

It's incredibly foolish to think that a non-hurting open-palmed swat to a clothed bottom (if it doesn't hurt my hand, it's not hurting her) and whipping a child with pipe are the same, or that it's the same as ripping apart a living being with the ability to feel. That is so fucking stupid. This issue isn't black and white. There are shades of grey. Many of you snark fundies who only see the world in black and white without realizing you're plenty guilty of it yourselves and that, like the fundies, you like to pretend you are the expert in a given subject and know the one and only right way to do it and if you only do it right, then you're sure to succeed. Hmm, follow your method of raising kids and yore sure to succeed, or follow the bible close enough and nothing bad can happen, and failure means you personally fucked up along the way.

In terms of the amount of pain being caused, a swat with a hand and being whipped with an object like a pipe or plumbing line are clearly not on the same level. However, the point is that it's still hitting a child to correct wrong behaviour. We don't hit other adults in an attempt to teach them right from wrong, so why do we think it's okay to do it to a child? It doesn't make a lick of sense.

[Elle]

Minerva, my brother and I were occasionally spanked. We also knew that parents have the job of teaching us what we are allowed to do and not allowed to do, and us hitting each other because we wanted a toy the other had wasn't the same as being spanked as a punishment to doing something we knew we weren't allowed to do. Even kids who aren't spanked can have fights where they hit each other.

Maude, it's a sensation she doesn't like. When she's not dressed, she'll smack her own butt and laugh, one hand on each cheek and smack smack smack. Or we'll lightly tap her bum like bongos. She loves that. But get cloth in the way and she doesn't like it. It's almost like it offends her. That's why it stops her. Clearly she's not associating our way of spanking with anything ZOMG traumatizing if she has fun smacking her own butt when she's naked and takes our hands to tap her bum while saying boom boom and giggling. I can smack my own thigh with just a single layer of cloth, and it's not very comfortable, but doesn't hurt. But if I smack my thigh without cloth, it still doesn't hurt, but the different sensation feels good. (I just did this to myself.) Some people can get back massages where a chopping motion, a form of hitting since apparently anything like that is hitting, feels very good, and others find it unpleasant, even if it doesn't hurt. Not all unpleasant things cause pain. Sensation also changes depending on the presence of a barrier.

And really, if the place is only 200 square feet how far from you can a toddler really get before you notice?

Our living space is about 7 feet wide on the inside. I've mentioned before that my family is pretty poor. We live in a vintage RV. Since the bathroom is not large enough to take her in there with me when I'm going, it's vital that she knows a sharp NO means STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING IMMEDIATELY. It's not feasible to expect me to be able to get to her the second she tries grabbing at something that could hurt her. Sit on the toilet and time how long if takes you to get your pants up without even wiping (so make sure you didn't actually go) so that you can actually walk without tripping.

Because space is at a premium, we have to use floor space for things a lot of you would put in drawers, making it like an obstacle course. Our home isn't a nice neat little square with everything stacked against the wall so that there's an open space in the center. She can get close to 30 feet away from me in here. Most very small spaces like this are studios and in them, usually a bed and maybe a couple small nightstands. This place we have has a table and two bench seats, a couch, two seats in the front with another table by one of them, a closet, a fridge (but it's set into a wall-type thing, so there's no storage above it), oven and stove with a microwave above it, a small counter area with a sink, and in the bedroom, we have a slightly-smaller-than-queen bed and two night stands, in addition to the teensy bathroom. Imagine fitting all of those things into such a small area. All of these things are bolted to the floor, so we can't rearrange them in a way that could open more floor space. As far as storage space, we have a few overhead cabinets that have about a foot of height in each one.

With RV walls, you can't just bolt shelves to the wall. It doesn't work that way. And even if it did, when you've got furniture bolted to the floor, that won't stop a toddler from reaching them. As far as floor space itself goes, there is an aisle that's about 30" wide that goes from the foot of the bed to the front of the RV, and about 16" that goes around the bed. Add in the space under the tables, and this is literally all the floor space we have. Just a toy or two on the floor can make running tricky.

Since we don't have a door closing off the bedroom from the rest of the "house," it's not possible to restrict her to a confined area until she calms down. Not unless we put her in the bathroom with a toilet that doesn't flush to a city sewer (the way it works is a hatch opens, and everything drops into a holding tank, and when it gets full, you drain it to a sewer access line, but if you leave it open all the time, the liquids drain away but the solids will remain, and that can destroy the tank, and it's extremely expensive to replace a tank since it means cutting a hole in the side of the RV and welding it back together afterward). So it's not even remotely sanitary to put a child in a confined space like that. (As far as showering goes, that happens in the public showers we have access to.)

When I've said my family lives in a really small space, I doubt any of you really thought I meant it, did you? Probably thought I was talking about a small apartment or something.

Anyway because we can't close off the bedroom when we're sleeping, it can be a matter of life and death for our daughter to know to not ever touch the knobs on the stove or oven (they aren't removable, and since it's a gas system, if you turn them on and don't like them, we could all die of propane poisoning). She needs to know to not ever grab the knives. She knows how to get onto the counters by using the drawers are steps, and removing them would leave the equivalent of a ladder. She knows how to get into the overhead cabinets using the furniture we can't move. If we lived in a place with separate rooms, then it would be possible to take her into her safe little bedroom and let her have her fit over not getting to play with scissors. It would be easier to distract her when she can't easily see the location of what she wants. It would be easy to remove temptations or put them behind a closed door so she never saw them. If she were smaller or weaker, I might be able to hold her tightly when she pitches a fit but when I did that, in her fit-induced rage, she smashed her head into my nose and broke it. If there was more room to let her pitch a fit on the floor, that might be an option, but the one time we tried that, she kicked against a drawer and slammed her mouth into the bottom of the leg holding the table up and there was a lot of blood from how that hurt her mouth. Since we have no yard we can call ours and close off to traffic, we can't take her outside to let her just run around and know she'll be safe. Both in front of and behind the RV right now are two lanes, and drivers don't go slow. Our car is packed about 150 years away since our current spot doesn't have parking with it. Since we don't have much room in here, she has very few toys. Those she has are far more important to her than your children's many toys are to them. When a child doesn't have much, taking away what little she has is far crueler than an open-handed swat to a clothed bottom. She gets over the swat quickly. But if you take away her few little toys, and she will try to not fall asleep to make sure they don't go anywhere. She lost a doll (it ended up in a clothes basket), and that was really hard for her.

So. In my position, what would you do? How would you enforce time-outs, or removing privileges when a child has none, or revoke toys when a child has so few that she is so emotionally attached that not knowing where ones causes devastation? How would you hide things that could be dangerous when there are so few places to put anything, and none that she can't access? If your child wakes up before you do, how do you make as sure as you can that she won't get into the forbidden knives, run, and trip on it?

You might think this way of life is extreme, but to use right now, it's life, and we are making the best of it we can and doing the best we can. We don't have the same options available to us that some of you, who live in 5-bedroom houses and make six figures a year, have available to you.

Because our options are so limited and we don't enjoy even those non-painful swats, in some ways we are more permissive. Right now my daughter is playing with some DVDs that I'd really rather she not play with, but it's a novelty, and so I'm picking my battles, and that isn't one I'm willing to fight. So when she hears a NO, at this point, more often than not, she knows that I mean it. Since we are permissive enough to let her play with DVDs and other things toddlers usually don't get to play with, we hope that helps balance out the areas where, for the safety of her life, we must be strict. Since we can't have many toys in here for her, while she wants to know where they are at all times, she does get bored and wants to play with new things, and we can not let those things be knives, scissors, cleaning supplies, the stove knows, etc..

Giving her up for adoption isn't an option, and anyone who wants to even consider that is a fucking moron. Removing a child from a home where she is loved and cared for and away from the people she is very attached to over what is really only going to be a temporary situation would harm her a hell of a lot more in the long run than the occasional swat to the bottom. And I'd rather be "that awful mean mom who hits her kid" than to be that mom whose having to bury a child who didn't see enough reason not to get into the knives really early one morning while her parents were still sleeping. I wish we had more space. I wish we could move our furniture around and keep the dangerous things away. I wish we could lock the door in a way that she couldn't unlock herself and go outside. I wish the bathroom was large enough to take her in there with me if I had to. I wish we could move temptations to somewhere she couldn't access and just let her pitch a fit on the floor because we won't let her have it. Unfortunately we do not have these PRIVILEGES. And I would rather give her a non-painful swat to head off a melt-down than to let her pitch a fit that results in a very painful lip that she busted open on the table leg. Who really thinks it's kinder to let a child hurt herself than to swat her clothed butt? Who thinks it's kinder to hope a child who wakes up super early one day stays out of the dangerous things and doesn't try turning the stove on than to give open-palmed swats when she does try getting into those things during the day and won't stop after three warnings?

And guess what. Because we don't have all the options many of you are privileged to have, we will not be having another child. Unlike the fundies, we don't use a whipping pipe at the presumption that a child might be thinking about acting up. We don't tell her she's doing wrong by whipping her bare skin and then shipping her for crying. Unlike the fundies, we give warnings and use an open palm to make sure we aren't causing pain. Unlike the fundies, we won't have more children when there's more that the child we already have should have, like enough space and enough toys that she doesn't have to form such passionate feelings for those she has that separation is so devastating she can't sleep.

Doing what we are doing right now has resulted in a very happy child who doesn't realize she's poor compared to a lot of other kids. The difference between her and other kids is that she has to know where her toys are, but she'll gladly share with someone sitting in front of her. She's very happy and very sweet. She loves us and knows she is protected. When she gets scared of seeing tons of other kids at a play place (she does get shy sometimes), she runs to us instead of away. When we go out and about and we are with her, she's outgoing and VERY polite, and she learned that by observation. We didn't teach her to take please and thank you by telling her to, or to pick up something someone dropped and to hand it to them, but telling her to, but she learned by observation. We do not have an emotionally damaged child. We have one who knows she's safe expressing herself and that she can come to us when she's upset about something or when she bumps her knee. She's not scared. She knows she is safe. Right now she is asleep on the upper part of my right arm slightly suckling (she still breastfeeds, it's comforting to her, and that which comforts her we won't take away) with her head on my shoulder. Damaged child? No. One who's afraid of us? Hell no! Are we harming her? Fuck no. We are protecting her in the best way we can with the very few options available to us, and you know what? Allowing her to pitch fits and hurt herself of trying to confine her in my arms when she's angry and then breaking my nose (and potentially associating my arms with a place to be that's bad) aren't what I'd consider to be options, nor is it a good option to emotionally harm her by taking away the few possessions that are hers and hers alone. And anyone who could observe my family for a day and spend time with her would be able to see that we are doing just fine.

[Elle]

You live in a 200 square foot place? I think you need to start an "ask me" thread. i thought emily was pushing it with her 450 square foot apartment. Holy smokes!!! I think my bedroom at my parents house is about that size. is your kitchen, sleeping area, and living area really all in the same room?

Linsday, yes. Bathroom, bed, two nightstands, closet, table and bench seats, couch, two other chairs and a small table, fridge, over and stove (the microwave is above them, so doesn't take more floor space, and kitchen since and counter that has a few drawers and small cabinet underneath. All of this stuff is fixed in place so we can't move anything. Remove it all, and you're have about 200 square feet. We've got three people and four animals living in here. It's VERY tight, but we make it work. In addition to this, to make ends meet, I also operate a small business out of here. We use the trunk of our car for additional storage, but it's not feasible to store things like knives and whatnot out there since it's a bit of a walk to get to where we can park the car. Not far, but not really feasible to walk almost a quarter of a mile when you need to get a knife to cut up something you're cooking, and then the same walk to put it back, especially when I'm home with just my daughter and would have to take her on a lane where drivers drive too damned fast for as narrow as the lanes are.

Before this we lived in a three-bedroom house with a pool. Then income issues and a bunch of shit wiped us out, and for a while we had nowhere to live. To get our family all back together, we cashed out what my husband had for a 401k (no great sum, unfortunately, but fortunately enough for what we bought). It's a small miracle that we didn't lose any of our animals along the way. To get us all back together, it required moving more than 1,000 miles away from home. The option otherwise was homeless shelters. No, I'm not kidding at all. We'd already gone through the TB testing required for me and our daughter to stay in the women with children shelter.

We've adapted the best we can and are generally happy, though a lot of people think they would be miserable with this kid of downsizing. We would have been if we hadn't just spent months not having regular places to sleep and going weeks at a time without getting to see each other. That was devastating. Compared to that, out family getting to be together again in an RV was wonderful.

[CanadianHippie]

That's a big long justification for hitting a child.

For the record, when I'm home I wear either sweat pants or yoga pants, don't put them around my ankles when I sit on the toilet, and it takes me less than a second to pull them up.

[Minerva]

Minerva, my brother and I were occasionally spanked. We also knew that parents have the job of teaching us what we are allowed to do and not allowed to do, and us hitting each other because we wanted a toy the other had wasn't the same as being spanked as a punishment to doing something we knew we weren't allowed to do. Even kids who aren't spanked can have fights where they hit each other.

Maude, it's a sensation she doesn't like. When she's not dressed, she'll smack her own butt and laugh, one hand on each cheek and smack smack smack. Or we'll lightly tap her bum like bongos. She loves that. But get cloth in the way and she doesn't like it. It's almost like it offends her. That's why it stops her. Clearly she's not associating our way of spanking with anything ZOMG traumatizing if she has fun smacking her own butt when she's naked and takes our hands to tap her bum while saying boom boom and giggling. I can smack my own thigh with just a single layer of cloth, and it's not very comfortable, but doesn't hurt. But if I smack my thigh without cloth, it still doesn't hurt, but the different sensation feels good. (I just did this to myself.) Some people can get back massages where a chopping motion, a form of hitting since apparently anything like that is hitting, feels very good, and others find it unpleasant, even if it doesn't hurt. Not all unpleasant things cause pain. Sensation also changes depending on the presence of a barrier.

My siblings and I were the same way. A tap framed as a spanking made us go ballistic, a friendly tap was fine. I don't know what my siblings' reasoning behind that was, but in my case, since spanking was reserved for really bad behaviour, it was the realization that I'd crossed the line combined with the fear of another one. I was afraid of my mother in the early years. I remember asking her to look less angry because it scared me (she had tweezed high arched eyebrows), and I remember nightmares where she was a bee trying to sting me, where she had sticks, etc. I did rationalize hitting my brother as spanking, and the parents had to stop spanking us before they could logic me into not hitting my brother (thankfully, the youngest siblings didn't come along until after all this). We still had all kinds of physical fights after that, but by the time I was in elementary school I no longer saw myself as my brother's backup disciplinarian, punishing him whenever my parents or the babysitter inexplicably let his misdeeds slide. (My idea of misdeeds included whining, wetting himself, mispronouncing words, being unable to read, and not following along during TV shows, to give you an idea of the type of kid I was.)

[Elle]

My siblings and I were the same way. A tap framed as a spanking made us go ballistic, a friendly tap was fine. I don't know what my siblings' reasoning behind that was, but in my case, since spanking was reserved for really bad behaviour, it was the realization that I'd crossed the line combined with the fear of another one. I was afraid of my mother in the early years. I remember asking her to look less angry because it scared me (she had tweezed high arched eyebrows), and I remember nightmares where she was a bee trying to sting me, where she had sticks, etc. I did rationalize hitting my brother as spanking, and the parents had to stop spanking us before they could logic me into not hitting my brother (thankfully, the youngest siblings didn't come along until after all this). We still had all kinds of physical fights after that, but by the time I was in elementary school I no longer saw myself as my brother's backup disciplinarian, punishing him whenever my parents or the babysitter inexplicably let his misdeeds slide. (My idea of misdeeds included whining, wetting himself, mispronouncing words, being unable to read, and not following along during TV shows, to give you an idea of the type of kid I was.)

When we were little, we were never spanked when our dad were angry. He made damn sure of that. But we also had enough warnings that we didn't fear our parents at all. If we were told a few times to stop doing what we were doing or we would get a spanking and we chose to continue misbehaving knowing full well that a spanking was on the way if we kept it up, then why would we fear our parents all the time? Sometimes we would act up and stop on the last warning just to keep doing the fun misbehavior as long as we could. Sometimes the misbehavior wasn't worth going to a second warning. Sometimes we just plain decided to ignore all the warnings. No matter, we always got warnings, and more often than not, the second and third warnings would come with milder punishments, so we really had to work our way up to getting spanked. I was spanked maybe a dozen times in my life, and the worst one was when I saw my dad had tears in his own eyes. I asked him why he was the one crying when I was the one who got spanked, and he told me he hates having to spank us, but if the other stuff doesn't work, then he can't let us learn we can ultimately get away with doing what we want, and he left my room before I could say anything. By then I was 12 and was definitely old enough to know what I was allowed to do and not allowed to do.

When we spank our own daughter, again we check our anger. If we were swatting her enough to cause her pain, I'm pretty sure she'd cry. We aren't spanking her enough to cry. She's a kid who can get the slightest bump or scrape and she'll cry like the world is ending. But she doesn't cry when she gets a swat. It more or less stops her in her tracks and usually she'll say, "Heeey!" and pout. But it gets the message across to stop. And it's definitely better than the alternatives of moving her three feet enough times that she throws a tantrum and hurts herself, or holding the object above her head or shoving it in a cabinet she can open while holding it closed to that she knows she could get it if we weren't preventing her with our own hands and throwing a tantrum and hurting herself, or letting a tantrum start and holding her still in my lap so that she connects my arms with a bad place to be and slams her head into my nose and breaking it again. When we had a house, it was easier to put things away that she wanted and to let her pitch a fit on the floor because she couldn't reach the cabinet, and it was easier to take her to her room with a toy to distract her from trying to climb the bookcase because in her room she couldn't see what she wanted and so was easier to distract. It was easier put her to bed at a decent hour when we had a tub so we could give her dinner, a bath, then bed, in a regular routine every night in her own room so we could do what we wanted to in the evenings without keeping her awake (guess how many times we've had "relations" since we lost our home...zero....nothing in over a year because we can't in what's essentially the same room and in our child's bed). I wish we still had the space we once did, and the options we had then.

Even though our spanks don't hurt her, we would love to have other options to resort to first, and we would love for her to have her own space and the room for more toys and more clothes and somewhere to go when she wants to be alone instead of having to sit by the side of the bed with a blanket over herself and a toy under it with her (she grabs the blanket and does that, we're not the ones throwing a blanket over her). This is why I can't stand the judging. We are making the most of the situation we have, and unlike the fundies, give warnings, don't cause pain, and aren't having more kids when we're barely able to meet the material needs of the one we have because it actually matters to us that our daughter be allowed to have things that are her own, and that has to mean having her own space before we could even think about adding another and expecting her to share what little she has. Instead I'm seen as being as bad as the fundies who beat the hell out of their kids while depriving them of an education and adding more when there are already kids sleeping in bathrooms and pantries. Somehow I'm exactly the same way because I'll swat my daughter on the bottom after a few warnings even though it's not hard enough to make her cry.

[CanadianHippie]

If you want other options besides spanking start looking up non-violent parenting tips and tricks. The alternatives are numerous, some are good, some aren't, but they are out there.

[muffynbear]

We really need to start a "Checkmate, Anti-Choicers" site. Rebecca is one major thundercunt. She makes me want to rage. HARD. :evil:

[Minerva]

When we were little, we were never spanked when our dad were angry. He made damn sure of that. But we also had enough warnings that we didn't fear our parents at all. If we were told a few times to stop doing what we were doing or we would get a spanking and we chose to continue misbehaving knowing full well that a spanking was on the way if we kept it up, then why would we fear our parents all the time? Sometimes we would act up and stop on the last warning just to keep doing the fun misbehavior as long as we could. Sometimes the misbehavior wasn't worth going to a second warning. Sometimes we just plain decided to ignore all the warnings. No matter, we always got warnings, and more often than not, the second and third warnings would come with milder punishments, so we really had to work our way up to getting spanked. I was spanked maybe a dozen times in my life, and the worst one was when I saw my dad had tears in his own eyes. I asked him why he was the one crying when I was the one who got spanked, and he told me he hates having to spank us, but if the other stuff doesn't work, then he can't let us learn we can ultimately get away with doing what we want, and he left my room before I could say anything. By then I was 12 and was definitely old enough to know what I was allowed to do and not allowed to do.

When we spank our own daughter, again we check our anger. If we were swatting her enough to cause her pain, I'm pretty sure she'd cry. We aren't spanking her enough to cry. She's a kid who can get the slightest bump or scrape and she'll cry like the world is ending. But she doesn't cry when she gets a swat. It more or less stops her in her tracks and usually she'll say, "Heeey!" and pout. But it gets the message across to stop. And it's definitely better than the alternatives of moving her three feet enough times that she throws a tantrum and hurts herself, or holding the object above her head or shoving it in a cabinet she can open while holding it closed to that she knows she could get it if we weren't preventing her with our own hands and throwing a tantrum and hurting herself, or letting a tantrum start and holding her still in my lap so that she connects my arms with a bad place to be and slams her head into my nose and breaking it again. When we had a house, it was easier to put things away that she wanted and to let her pitch a fit on the floor because she couldn't reach the cabinet, and it was easier to take her to her room with a toy to distract her from trying to climb the bookcase because in her room she couldn't see what she wanted and so was easier to distract. It was easier put her to bed at a decent hour when we had a tub so we could give her dinner, a bath, then bed, in a regular routine every night in her own room so we could do what we wanted to in the evenings without keeping her awake (guess how many times we've had "relations" since we lost our home...zero....nothing in over a year because we can't in what's essentially the same room and in our child's bed). I wish we still had the space we once did, and the options we had then.

Even though our spanks don't hurt her, we would love to have other options to resort to first, and we would love for her to have her own space and the room for more toys and more clothes and somewhere to go when she wants to be alone instead of having to sit by the side of the bed with a blanket over herself and a toy under it with her (she grabs the blanket and does that, we're not the ones throwing a blanket over her). This is why I can't stand the judging. We are making the most of the situation we have, and unlike the fundies, give warnings, don't cause pain, and aren't having more kids when we're barely able to meet the material needs of the one we have because it actually matters to us that our daughter be allowed to have things that are her own, and that has to mean having her own space before we could even think about adding another and expecting her to share what little she has. Instead I'm seen as being as bad as the fundies who beat the hell out of their kids while depriving them of an education and adding more when there are already kids sleeping in bathrooms and pantries. Somehow I'm exactly the same way because I'll swat my daughter on the bottom after a few warnings even though it's not hard enough to make her cry.

Yeah, see my parents caused us pain. The 2 spankings I got past the age of 5 left marks (I didn't know to check if the preschool spankings left marks, but they hurt quite a bit). We'd start crying at the threat of a spanking (not that threats usually happened - we'd just get spanked). I can't imagine preschool-age me just pouting after being hit the way my parents did it. Cringing, maybe, but not pouting. And usually crying. My parents would then explain that they didn't want to do it but had to, and I didn't believe them. I still don't believe it. They had a ton of different time-out spaces available to them, both of their jobs gave them ample experience working with small children, and they totally had the option to hit us less hard. When they realized they had to stop hitting, parenting book after parenting book started appearing around the house, and my youngest siblings benefited from a pretty much spank-free childhood. I can't blame them for being more desperate with their first two children than the last ones, but I still resent them for not at the very least spanking less hard. What you do doesn't sound anywhere near what they did. I wouldn't even swat a kid, but I'm finding it hard to judge you for what you do.

[bananacat]

Spanking is frankly ridiculous. Every single day millions and millions of children are cared for by their parents, teacher, or baby-sitters without ever being spanked and without ever running into a road or killing themselves on a hot stove. It's clearly not necessary to hit kids to make them behave, otherwise we'd have an epidemic of kids wandering into streets and hot stoves everywhere. Your laziness as a caregiver is not a legitimate excuse to hit.

[Elle]

And this is why I usually don't bother arguing with you idiots who think that the resources available to you are available to all people.

Banana, quit being a fucking bitch and insisting I'm a lazy parent. I spend more time with my child than you do with yours, guaranteed. I'm with her 24/7, including when we sleep, and it's been this way every day and night of her entire life. It's rare I'm further from her than 20 feet. Her care is never passed onto anyone else, and she's spent a grand total of less than 24 hours total away from me, including when I spent 4 days and 3 nights in the hospital - she was there from 6am until midnight every day because I didn't want her away from me. So about 18 hours there. She's been babysat twice each for 90 minutes or less, and the rest have been a few trips to the grocery store with her home with her daddy. Even with her daddy home, I'm still with her. My guard never gets to be completely down. Spend a day in my shoes and see how much time you spend doing nothing at all with her. Even my time online isn't without my daughter. Usually, like now, she's asleep having just finished nursing, but she's on me. Lazy parents are people like the Duggars who do whatever they can to spend the least amount of time directly taking care of their kids as they can get away with, or people like the Pearls whose ultimate goal is to be able to ignore their kids and have then too afraid to breathe.