Shiny Happy People: A Duggar and IBLP Documentary

[Loveday]

19 minutes ago, Mabel said:

I agree, the overall “point” wasn’t very clear other than what you said, fundies are bad. I also felt like it was very disjointed. We go from talking about Josh’s crimes to the young fundie generation, back to JB being bad. I think it would have helped if each episode had a specific topic. Like just one devoted on Josh, just one devoted on the upcoming fundie generation, and so forth. 

I agree with you and @WatchingTheTireFireBurn that it all seemed a bit disjointed. It didn't confuse me because I've been observing and snarking on fundie behavior since 2012, but after just now finishing the series, I can definitely see how it could be for the non-fundie-obsessed public in general (and FJ'ers who follow other sections of the board more than the Duggars!). I mentioned earlier that my husband had a lot of questions; he has yet to watch the last two episodes, so I'm bracing myself for a shit-ton more. All he knows of this stuff is the rare comment I make about Lori Alexander's latest diatribe on wifely submission or Jill Rodrigues and her e-bike/five thousandth vacation/ten millionth 'date night,' so I'll have a lot more 'splainin' to do when he finishes it. 

Maybe this is just the opening salvo in an ongoing revelatory battle against IBLP, the Duggars, and the movement in general. Maybe we're going to get more, and it will be more sharply focused in future series. I hope so.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Loveday
punctuation and clarification

[Pleiades_06]

10 hours ago, Columbia said:

Did anybody see IBLP’s “response” to the documentary?

 

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The most recent “documentary,” about IBLP, is a reflection of today’s culture. Its misleading and untruthful commentary mocks that which is good and moral in the most sensationalized way possible, both for shock value and for profit. Media story makers are anything but fair and balanced. They produce attractively packaged content to push an agenda, increase viewership, and pursue revenue. We do not want to minimize perspectives that individual people have experienced or expressed, but the creators of these types of “documentaries” have a different agenda than perhaps even those interviewed by them. One-sided and manipulative “journalistic” tactics offer no alternative perspectives for the viewers, and many good people are manipulated and used while others are maligned and attacked.

IBLP is neither a church nor a religion but rather a nondenominational Christian ministry that desires to introduce individuals to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and to help them apply Christian principles found in God’s Word. IBLP affirms and teaches historic Christianity.

For more than sixty years, these principles of God’s Word were taught through the Basic Seminar and other ministries. While selected sound bites of the Seminar teaching may be found on the internet, anyone who wants to know the full context of the teaching, can view the Basic Seminar, free of charge, at basicseminar.com. Several million people from around the world and from many different walks of life, churches, denominations, nationalities, and personal Christian experiences have been positively impacted by our ministry. 

Only the Bible can guide us in these and other areas of life, and IBLP exists to help believers on this journey. Our sincere desire is to help families discover the Lord Jesus Christ, the Scriptures, salvation, and sanctification only by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

The founder, Bill Gothard, resigned from IBLP in 2014 and is no longer associated with the IBLP ministry. The focus of this ministry is the Lord Jesus Christ and the practical truths found in Scripture, and not any single person or family. IBLP will always be about helping people find Christ and the timeless values of the Bible that bring hope and stability to each facet of life. Ultimately, every one of us will give an account to God for our lives and choices and those will be evaluated against the perfect standards of His Word. 

These attacks, as salacious and false as they may be, will cause many to search out our ministry and discover the truth for themselves. For this we are grateful because we know that our aim and our efforts are all designed to help people find God’s love, redemption, and their best lives.   

Sadly, we live in a day where this Gospel is not accepted readily but is, even vehemently, rejected. We affirm the Bible as our final authority, and sadly, this life-changing Book is also rejected by the world. Our desire is that the Person of Jesus Christ would be lifted up and that all men would be drawn to Him, as Jesus stated in John 12:32: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

 

It‘s amazing how the Duggars were their biggest asset and are now their biggest liability. I wonder who wrote that and who does their PR.

[thoughtful]

1 minute ago, Loveday said:

Maybe this is just the opening salvo in an ongoing revelatory battle against IBLP, the Duggars, and the movement in general. Maybe we're going to get more, and it will be more sharply focused in future series. I hope so.

I was just thinking the same. I'm wondering if the filmmakers were hoping to be asked to go into each aspect more deeply, in future segments.

I hope that they will get the backing to do so (and that they want to do so), and cover the current state of the IBLP, how it ties in or compares to other kinds of right-wing crap hiding behind religion, the Bateses, Pecan, etc.

I still haven't watched the last two episodes, so I'm going by the first two.

[JermajestyDuggar]

13 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

So how much money was each family dishing to Bill Gothard? Can’t believe that JB was that generous with his treasure.

I bet Jim Bob expected to be paid by IBLP after every talk they gave at conferences. And I bet he worked out a deal to get all their conference fees waved for the whole family since they were bringing so many people to IBLP. JB is a haggler. 

[CanadianMamam]

40 minutes ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

I've watched 3 episodes on freevee so I can't watch the 4th.

I seem to have a different take to most of you. I think maybe because many of you are more deep into the full fundie soup than me.

I only have kept up with some duggars, some bates, and jrod. I dont know who any of the other people are in the doc. I didn't have first hand exp of homeschooling. I've had several friends become quiverfull and have a passing knowledge of iblp etc.

For me, the doc was confusing. What is the main topic? Fundie bad?

It jumped around so much between what probably should be like 5 different documentaries depending on what topic you want to delve into.

Jill did not explain much. And what she did go into detail was about not getting paid. Which is exploitive sure....but if the doc is about iblp/Gothard then jill not getting paid was a side issue.

If it's about JB duggar is becoming a controlling megalomaniac then all the deep dive into Gothard is distracting. 

If it's about gothard/ibpl power rise then the focus on Josh duggar was pulling focus. And they definitely should have gone into bates.

I found most of what Amy said did not explain or deepen  the narrative. Her husband seemed like a rude asshat. He's joking and interrupting her in a doc about men controlling women. I felt like they didn't cut that out to make a subtle jab.

The Amy note about the probable beatings was the most noteworthy thing she said. Did they ask Jill about that?

And other than "ex-ibpl" identifiers I don't know who any of those other people were and whether they have any significance beyond being victims. Which is significant to them, but why were these particular people interviewed? 

The cult expert lady was handy when she randomly came on. And I feel like the guy with dark hair who sat alone had more of a let me explain the greater significance vibe.

I feel like maybe a narrator or consistent expert tying the victim statements together would have brought it together to be more than the component parts.

I found the couple minute focus on the paramilitary section disturbing. And would like to see a whole documentary focused on that. I started thinking which duggar was the one we saw graduate from there...what did they do to him? What thought bombs got planted in his psyche? What about the police and prison training!

Police in America are pretty stuck on "obey me or i shoot" did that come from.iblp?! From several places? I want to know more. Scary stuff and they glossed by it so quickly.

 

 

 

To me, I think the documentary was trying to draw parallels between Gothard and JB. They were both doing the same things, but on different scales. They were both financially exploring others. Gothard was sexually abusing women in his church, JB covered up his son's sexual abuse of his daughters. Gothard sanctioned child labor and abuse, JB applied those methods to his children. Both kept up a public facade that was far from the truth. 

 

[neuroticcat]

I've wondered if there's some legal reason they didn't really go after current IBLP either. Seems like it would've been a good way to end it, but maybe there just really aren't as many direct believers anymore? I could see how that might undercut their story if it turns out there's only 500 families still with IBLP or something. (I personally think the reach of IBLP was much further than even the documentary indicated given how common his stuff was and how people passed around bits and pieces even outside IBLP)

LOL at the VF post. "Civility" is code for: how can I control the adult children in these movements so they don't come for me next? 

That's the way they control publicly. Shame. Reasonable Christiany sounding reasons. "Disagreement." It's SO gaslighty and gross.

I'm surprised at how emotional I've been after watching, because I've known about most of this forever have been here for years and known how abusive and evil it was. 

I think though I've always kind of held an assumption that most of the parents were absolutely abusive but that they had been duped or didn't know any better or were kind of victims themselves. I think maybe that's true for a small percentage, but this documentary made me see that however much the adults were victims, they sat in those seminars and laughed and grinned and turned a blind eye as they talked about abusing their children and learned how to do it better and I don't even know how to process the magnitude of that.

[SassyPants]

So there you have it. The only person who ever received a paycheck from TLC was JB Duggar. Many of us assumed this, but it’s nice to finally have that confirmed.

[Giraffe]

I hope TLC gets taken to task for this, too. Keeping the adults on as though they were still minors? TLC needs to be held accountable to that kind of bullshit, too. 

[KWLand]

first, thank you for the recaps.  It’s been eye opening how the connections are there among the ones we follow here on FJ.  It makes sense but I wasn’t able to fully connect them to each other.  
 

the objections from some of them is hilarious.  Gothards was something else.  Making it seem that it’s all good teachings.  Even if one person got hurt because of your teachings, it’s a reason to reflect and see why.  But nope, they all double down.

Who is the Paine blogger quoted a view pages back.  Is she related to Erin’s husband?  If so isn’t Erin and him still really involved?  I hate the justification that her parents were doing it for the right reasons and don’t know better.  That doesn’t justify the actions that were harmful.  My parents are amazing but they made some horrible parenting decisions and it is addressed often because those decisions impacted us all.  My brother thinks they are horrible parents and I accept that he believes that.  If my parents didn’t own up to their decisions, I would not have a relationship with them.  I hope all the fundies who are deconstructing realize the importance of parents truly apologizing and taking responsibility for the harm their decisons made, even if they did have the best intent.

Again thank you to those who not only watched but (brain fog) the episodes.  Thank you to those who shared their own story.  I hope the awareness of the harm brings healing amongst the pain.  

[SassyPants]

Unchecked power leads to abuse. IBLP, ATI, the Duggar home, all led to abuse without recourse for the victims. And Gothard was just preying on peoples’ fears.

And those crowds…and using child labor to build all these training centers. 

I need a shower.

[feministxtian]

After watching all 4 episodes, my first thought was that I was glad my X never knew anything about fundamentalist patriarchy. He'd have loved it. I think the whole thing appeals to men that are fundamentally insecure and afraid. My X thought that by being an abusive asshole he could prove that he was all big and bad when the truth was he was a scared, insecure person who felt utterly emasculated by me due to my intelligence (this was later confessed to me by him). I see all those chest-thumping "he-men" in the same light. I think JB, Gil Bates and the rest of them are pathetic...insecure, uneducated, and can only make themselves feel better by essentially being dicks. 

[Lady Dondarrion]

I'm just hoping some proper compensation comes to the the adult Duggar children (at the time those contracts came up) after all this (TLC being held accountable) gets cleared up. 

[llucie]

6 hours ago, KWLand said:

 

Who is the Paine blogger quoted a view pages back.  Is she related to Erin’s husband?  If so isn’t Erin and him still really involved?  

I dont think she is related to Chad Paine, he doesnt have any sister or sister-in law with the name Crystal. I am unsure if Erin and Chad are still involved with the IBLP, she did publically denounce Gothard and they were the ones that were encouraging the other siblings to attend diferent churches than Gils.

But his brother Nate Paine is still very much involved in IBLP. He is still listed as a speaker in the conferences.

[Zebedee]

4 hours ago, feministxtian said:

I think JB, Gil Bates and the rest of them are pathetic...insecure, uneducated, and can only make themselves feel better by essentially being dicks. 

Yes. I've been trying to read Jesus and John Wayne, and I have to keep putting it down, because I am so angry. These useless ignorant pathetic men who expect to the world to fall at their feet because they have a penis - because it's "God ordained", so conveniently, they can never be given arguments against it. Like trying to argue with a YES creationist who claims that fossils only "look old" because God has made it look that way. I so raged at that "spiritual gift" bit too - where all the women were "mercies", and the men "prophets". Prophets get to be arseholes and do what they like, and mercies get to be doormats and domestic slaves, woohoo.  And not just that, as if that isn't bad enough, but having to change every aspect of themselves, voices included; absolutely sick. I'm often annoyed at just how bland and boring these fundie women are - and how they basically are all the same woman.

I mean, I knew all this stuff from years of fundie following, but I rarely actually watched/listened to any of it. Seeing and hearing it, and hearing non-Duggar women talking about it, it was just so striking.

It was nice to hear the women talking in normal voices - I hadn't heard Jill since the Kids and Counting days, and didn't remember how she talked. So, she was sounding normal, and then they played the MK interview - wow, she sounds different now. Michelle sounds ridiculous. As did that awful woman who smiled about beating her child, and the one on the verge of tears for being out from under the umbrella because she wanted to wear trousers. But Michelle sounds like some weird computer voice from the early days. I'd forgotten how absolutely ludicrous she sounds.

I did laugh when one of the guests said "Mike and Debi are some motherfuckers". I really didn't expect that! Also, when Jrod popped up. My friend in the UK was watching, and was like "who ARE all the people". She was equal parts amused and disturbed when I went back and reeled off the names and potted bios of them all... Oh, and when Gothard as a young man who was concerned about the decisions his peers were making - yep, he was an insufferable twat from a young age, and I had the clearest picture of the sort of teenager he was.

@KWLand no, Crystal isn't related. I think somewhere someone has talked about this, maybe on her thread. She was a gateway fundie of mine, back in the 2000s, with her "Biblical Womanhood" blog. I would love to know more about why/how she changed from being a simpering "mercy"...

[Nothing if not critical]

Another thing I noticed in the documentary was when they mentioned the Northwoods (?) IBLP facility where Gothard sent his brother to keep him out of the public eye. Isn't that the same place Chad Paine spent so much time as a teen/young man, as per his old blog entries? I'd have to dig deep to be sure, but maybe someone here has a better memory?

ETA: Yup, found it: https://www.chadanderin.com/family-news/northwoods-again/

He was up there several times, usually on Journeys to the Heart (I think). I checked and that was many years after Steve Gothard had his nice little setup going on up there, but even so...

Edited June 3, 2023 by Nothing if not critical

[hoipolloi]

7 hours ago, KWLand said:

Who is the Paine blogger quoted a view pages back.  Is she related to Erin’s husband?

No relation. Crystal Paine and her husband Jesse were true believers in IBLP, including courtship & SAHW. Fortunately for their children, they have changed. 

Re: Vision Forum. Doug Phillips is a chickenshit little liar. Back in his day, he raged against anyone who didn't agree with VF's ideas, heaped imprecatory prayers upon them, and urged his leghumpers to do the same. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

8 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Unchecked power leads to abuse. IBLP, ATI, the Duggar home, all led to abuse without recourse for the victims. And Gothard was just preying on peoples’ fears.

And those crowds…and using child labor to build all these training centers. 

I need a shower.

It’s a hallmark of a cult. Whether it’s unpaid child labor or unpaid young adult labor. Practically every single cult does it at some point. The Religious cults always frame it as working for the lord. Since so many churches use a lot of volunteer work as well, it’s normalized to people. They think it’s like other churches. But if you look at IBLP, FLDS, and Hillsong, the hours were way way more than just some basic after school volunteering. Scientology is the same way. And so was NXIVM. They work people so hard with so little pay that not only are they growing their money, but they are making their people much too tired to object. If you don’t have the energy to object, you won’t. 

[Cam]

I’ve now watched episode 2 and thought it was more hard hitting than the first. I’m still finding Jill’s conversations annoying for some reason. Her constant use of the work “like”, as in “like, we were supposed to, like, read the wisdom books and like, memorize them” bothers me. It’s as if she’s afraid to appear confident in what she says. By that, I mean she may have strong personal convictions but won’t project that in public. She still has to/wants to appear somewhat soft and compliant. She comes across as still very sheltered. But, I guess it’s good to see her as she really is.

We will no doubt see more of Derik speak when their book comes out. There could possibly even be an in-depth hour interview on Good Morning America or something. Didn’t Jinger do that? I figure their book deal stipulates that they keep the juicier details to themselves until it’s published.

The clip of the little boy getting a pretend spanking was puke-worthy. Talk about a cult! God awful. The “daddy” guy was acting all pleasant but what a fucking power trip he was on, and you know men like that relish spanking children, and when they do it for real, it is in an angry rage and all about dominance over the helpless.

I never spanked my child. We have the best relationship. He is such a fantastic adult.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Cam

[SassyPants]

I really had no idea how big the organization was. A couple of things: When Josh was sent to manuel labor camp, was it to build one of these satellite Gothard institutes? Did JB step out of the umbrella of protection when he signed the TLC contract? Did he and Michelle tempt satan? So if Derick wasn’t getting paid by TLC, why did he quit his WM job? How did he think that he’d support his family? At any time during those years between WM and law school, why didn’t DD get a job? Yes, JB ripped them all off, but DD was not unskilled, so why didn’t he get a paying job vs relying on a food pantry? Obviously, DD knew better, but made some terrible decisions too.

 

1 hour ago, Cam said:

I’ve now watched episode 2 and thought it was more hard hitting than the first. I’m still finding Jill’s conversations annoying for some reason. Her constant use of the work “like”, as in “like, we were supposed to, like, read the wisdom books and like, memorize them” bothers me. It’s as if she’s afraid to appear confident in what she says. By that, I mean she may have strong personal convictions but won’t project that in public. She still has to/wants to appear somewhat soft and compliant. She comes across as still very sheltered. But, I guess it’s good to see her as she really is.

We will no doubt see more of Derik speak when their book comes out. There could possibly even be an in-depth hour interview on Good Morning America or something. Didn’t Jinger do that? I figure their book deal stipulates that they keep the juicier details to themselves until it’s published.

The clip of the little boy getting a pretend spanking was puke-worthy. Talk about a cult! God awful. The “daddy” guy was acting all pleasant but what a fucking power trip he was on, and you know men like that relish spanking children, and when they do it for real, it is in an angry rage and all about dominance over the helpless.

I never spanked my child. We have the best relationship. He is such a fantastic adult.

Neither Jill nor DD come off as articulate at all. Some of the other participants were more informative and concise.

[Columbia]

3 hours ago, Zebedee said:

I did laugh when one of the guests said "Mike and Debi are some motherfuckers".

I cackled at that. 
 

 

[Rio]

Pretty much heartbreaking to watch Jill being asked about Josh when she did not want to discuss him, so then why was that clip of her refusing and tearing up even left in the documentary? Now that we know Josh is actually doing time, it seems likely that the story which went public about him was not the whole story. In any case it’s very personal and obviously devastating to Jill and unfair of interviewers to throw that at her. 
 

As regards the “like” tic, my best friend who is a highly educated professional with a strong personality says “like” two or three times a sentence as well, I thought she picked it up in her sorority in the 90’s? It’s annoying but I am used to it!

[JermajestyDuggar]

“Like” and “Umm” are filler words. They are pretty common. Especially when someone is nervous. If you take a professional public speaking class, you will see a lot of people in the beginning of the class saying like or Umm. Or some other word. Mine is probably “so.” That’s probably one of the first things that will be addressed in a public speaking class. 

I also knew a severe stutterer in college that used like a lot as sort of a stuttering stand in. I have a son who stutters and he can use like a lot as well. 

[Lista]

38 minutes ago, Rio said:

Pretty much heartbreaking to watch Jill being asked about Josh when she did not want to discuss him, so then why was that clip of her refusing and tearing up even left in the documentary? Now that we know Josh is actually doing time, it seems likely that the story which went public about him was not the whole story. In any case it’s very personal and obviously devastating to Jill and unfair of interviewers to throw that at her. 
 

As regards the “like” tic, my best friend who is a highly educated professional with a strong personality says “like” two or three times a sentence as well, I thought she picked it up in her sorority in the 90’s? It’s annoying but I am used to it!

I saw it differently.  Jill said NO. She didn’t want to talk about it.  She stood up for herself & for once, wasn’t forced.  Good for her. She & her siblings were forced to do interviews & had to smile while doing it.  Now she tells “her truth” when she wants. 
 

it can’t be easy to be her. She was put in the spotlight at an early age. Now she’s trying to process wtf happened to her. The whole world (tlc viewers) watched her grow up. Watched her date. Watched her give birth.  Her parents did that.  She didn’t ask for it.  It’s gotta be weird for her & HER family.  
 

 

[Evil Feminist]

I was not expecting anything about TeenPact. I finished the last 2 episodes last night. I'm glad I broke it up. It was a pretty hard watch and I didn't grow up in IBLP/ATI. We were sort of fundie adjacent, but very isolated. The "every father a cult leader and every family an island" is very accurate for my family. I really was surprised to see so many clips from TeenPact promos, but it really ties in with the Christian nationalism. TeenPact was a big part of my life for several years and then CollegePlus, which they didn't mention at all. CPlus got a lot of publicity from the Duggar's endorsement and was largely staffed by young people who had grown up in IBLP/ATI or VF. I had been pretty sheltered from the greater fundie homeschool community and joining CPlus was eye opening to me. Part of what triggered my deconstruction. 

[Laura2730]

Lori Voeller (ex-wife of Jim Voeller, Head of ATI, who ran off with his secretary leaving his wife and 9 children) is featured in the doc:

Spoiler