Shiny Happy People: A Duggar and IBLP Documentary

[FilleMondaine]

Watching the 4th episode, now. Ugh, I see this ‘Joshua Generation’ in the military community. And I hate it.

I will be agnostic about Jill and Derrick. I see things like him allowing her to interrupt him, and with no butthurt expressions like Amy’s husband.

As for holding out for a book deal, I wonder if it more about being able to pause and think about what you want to say. In an interview, you are asked questions to answer on the spot. With a book, you have more time to think about answers, and pause, and add more things.

[AussieKrissy]

So do we think this doco (when it was in the works) was the reason the bates got dumped off Up. Personally if so I think them getting dumped may have meant they got over looked for this doco. Maybe if their show was still running they may have been more of interest to include in depth in the doco. (Disclaimer, I haven’t watched the docos yet). Just what I have read here and it does not seem like they are in it. Happy to be corrected. 

[CanadianMamam]

8 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

So do we think this doco (when it was in the works) was the reason the bates got dumped off Up. Personally if so I think them getting dumped may have meant they got over looked for this doco. Maybe if their show was still running they may have been more of interest to include in depth in the doco. (Disclaimer, I haven’t watched the docos yet). Just what I have read here and it does not seem like they are in it. Happy to be corrected. 

I think it was a combination of the documentary team sniffing around (they got dumped around when filming was starting) and the George Floyd comment. I think they might have been able to survive the George Floyd comment if there wasn't another potential big scandal looking, just like I think the documentary itself would not have been a factor of the Bates hadn't been currently embroiled in a scandal. 

[FilleMondaine]

And…finished. Wow. I think that I am going to take Doggie Mondaine for a walk and spend some time thinking. 
 

First takeaways are similar to others: too disjointed, even individual episodes had no through-line. It’s a bummer, because there is so much there!

I recognize so much from the other speakers in my own life. Sigh. Lots for therapy this week.

Too bad that the present-day people didn’t use the current term (trigger) ‘child sex abuse images’, and speaking of the term ‘trigger’, I wish I had a warning before they showed descriptions of the sick, sick stuff.

so grateful for Recovering Grace and the friends that I made there. I wish that Love Joy Feminism were also included, along with more stuff from Homeschoolers Anonymous. 
 

Well, onto some self care and dog walking. Whew!

[hoipolloi]

Re: disjointed nature of the documentary. I can appreciate why people find it disjointed and somewhat sprawling. IMO, we are seeing only a few heads of the hydra --  in this case, some of the heads (or headships, if you will) are the Duggars, Gothard, ILBP/ATI, and the Pearls. I am not sure that one documentary could pull them together unless it used a work like Jesus and John Wayne as its template. No producer will ever do that -- indeed, Kristin Kobes Du Mex has talked about the things she had to leave out of her excellent book. The wider prominence of the Duggars through the TLC series made them a relatively useful entry point.

The paradox of the fundie Christian world is its many heads AND the rats' nests of connections between and among those heads. When I first started my "journey" into this corner of the web, I quickly noticed how many of the prominent bloggers were connected in multiple ways -- attending each other's "conferences," marrying each other's kids, endorsing each other's products. This documentary actually shows these links but usually in passing. I had to rewind to catch the fact that Oak Brook School of Law -- beloved alma mater of VF leghumper Natty Darnell and others -- is considered to be one of the IBLP offshoots like ALERT, ATI, Journey to the Heart, etc.

Edited June 4, 2023 by hoipolloi
Clarity

[Smee]

53 minutes ago, FilleMondaine said:

 

Too bad that the present-day people didn’t use the current term (trigger) ‘child sex abuse images’, and speaking of the term ‘trigger’, I wish I had a warning before they showed descriptions of the sick, sick stuff.

 

Oh shit do they go into detail about what Josh was watching? I’ve only seen the first 2 episodes so far (& agree with everyone about how revolting that spanking demonstration was), and thus far have managed to avoid any graphic details about the CSAM - thanks FJ community for using spoilers in the Josh threads. Which episode goes there? From the preview it looks like the 3rd is going to be loosely focused on the paramilitary stuff.

So far I agree that it could do with a tighter structure. I think it wanted to be everything all at once and include all the people and angles. There are a lot of people interviewed and it’s often hard to track who is speaking or remember if they’re ex-IBLP or an expert of some kind. They all have valuable stories I’m sure, but it’s feeling like a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth. Hard to focus. 
 

If I didn’t know what I do from here about Bobye Holt and the divorce, violence order etc, I would never have guessed it from the simpering gaze she’s giving Jim in this doco, the way she laughs at his jokes and lets him tell the sanitised “we’re in the best light” version of the Josh story.

[JermajestyDuggar]

8 minutes ago, Smee said:

Oh shit do they go into detail about what Josh was watching? I’ve only seen the first 2 episodes so far (& agree with everyone about how revolting that spanking demonstration was), and thus far have managed to avoid any graphic details about the CSAM - thanks FJ community for using spoilers in the Josh threads. Which episode goes there? From the preview it looks like the 3rd is going to be loosely focused on the paramilitary stuff.

So far I agree that it could do with a tighter structure. I think it wanted to be everything all at once and include all the people and angles. There are a lot of people interviewed and it’s often hard to track who is speaking or remember if they’re ex-IBLP or an expert of some kind. They all have valuable stories I’m sure, but it’s feeling like a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth. Hard to focus. 
 

If I didn’t know what I do from here about Bobye Holt and the divorce, violence order etc, I would never have guessed it from the simpering gaze she’s giving Jim in this doco, the way she laughs at his jokes and lets him tell the sanitised “we’re in the best light” version of the Josh story.

Bobye has been with Jim since she was underage. She said they met when she as 14. I think if you spend the majority of you life with someone, you get pretty good at seeming happy and normal with them. She doesn’t know anything else. I can’t help but wonder if Bobye started to question a lot of things due to the court case and how everything played out. And as I said in another thread, the adult and single Holt daughters live outside the home and have instagram. For years they have shared cryptic self help type quotations about relationships and trauma in general. I always wondered if it was about ex boyfriends. Now I wonder if it was about their dad all along. 

[SisterMom]

1 hour ago, Smee said:

Oh shit do they go into detail about what Josh was watching? I’ve only seen the first 2 episodes so far (& agree with everyone about how revolting that spanking demonstration was), and thus far have managed to avoid any graphic details about the CSAM - thanks FJ community for using spoilers in the Josh threads. Which episode goes there? From the preview it looks like the 3rd is going to be loosely focused on the paramilitary stuff.

So far I agree that it could do with a tighter structure. I think it wanted to be everything all at once and include all the people and angles. There are a lot of people interviewed and it’s often hard to track who is speaking or remember if they’re ex-IBLP or an expert of some kind. They all have valuable stories I’m sure, but it’s feeling like a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth. Hard to focus. 
 

If I didn’t know what I do from here about Bobye Holt and the divorce, violence order etc, I would never have guessed it from the simpering gaze she’s giving Jim in this doco, the way she laughs at his jokes and lets him tell the sanitised “we’re in the best light” version of the Josh story.

Eep never mind, I'm wrong! 🥺

Edited June 4, 2023 by SisterMom

[Loveday]

5 minutes ago, SisterMom said:

No, don't worry, they don't go into detail about what Josh was watching!

I'm not sure I'm recalling correctly, but I do think there's a moment where the age of one of the CSA  victims is mentioned along with a slight hint of detail at the abuse itself. I don't remember which episode it was in, 3 or 4, and I don't want to go back and look for it for obvious reasons. I managed to avoid any details during the trial era, so that very brief moment in the doc was upsetting to me. Perhaps someone else who hasn't seen that part yet will give us a time stamp for it when they do unfortunately come across it, so we can fast forward if we feel we need to and avoid it on first and future viewings.😢

[SisterCupcake]

6 hours ago, Smee said:

Meh, I think for someone who had no choice about her entire life being filmed for public consumption (& the money going elsewhere) her desire to not go public with details of being sexually abused in childhood are perfectly reasonable.

I agree with you here. When I watched it though, I felt like she was more saying she wished the details had never come up at all. As in, it happened in her family and they never talked about it Out they were all told to keep it within the family, which was better. Basically, she was okay with how it was handled because it meant she didn’t have to deal with healing from the trauma. But secrets make us sick.

I get that, having been in a DV relationship myself, but only through counseling did I manage to deal with what happened. I wouldn’t have wanted it exposed on national television, but not talking about it at all wasn’t healthy either. 

[noseybutt]

I finished the series and found it both disjointed and very well done. IMO the film makers were very much going for a “show, don’t tell” vibe which fits well with letting survivors speak for themselves. A narrator adding in voiced over details (and especially a male narrator) would be too close to a voice of authority.

The lack of a central voice or thread does make it harder to follow but also mimics real life in terms of how messy the overlap is between families and churches and organizations and politics.

Jill presents as both a bad ass and a work in progress. I have zero issues with her not wanting to discuss her sexual abuse—that is forever her choice and especially as @Smee points out, she was forced to live life in the public eye. But I share @SisterCupcake’s take that it feels very much work-in-progress when she shows so much shame about the abuse being known. 

While the documentary made the point that IBLP is in many states and countries, the way Jill spoke struck me as also embedded in Ozark culture. It’s very clannish and often speaking of abuse (or mental illness or addiction or the struggles of poverty) to anyone outside the family is considered more shameful than the abuse itself. 

 IBLP is not everywhere equally. There are cultures where it finds more fertile ground because of the fit with what is already there and what is lacking. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

34 minutes ago, SisterCupcake said:

When I watched it though, I felt like she was more saying she wished the details had never come up at all. As in, it happened in her family and they never talked about it Out they were all told to keep it within the family, which was better. Basically, she was okay with how it was handled because it meant she didn’t have to deal with healing from the trauma. But secrets make us sick.

Agree. Josh's sister victims filed a lawsuit against city and county officials alleging invasion of privacy over the freedom of information release of the police report to InTouch. It was later dismissed by the same judge who presided on Josh's criminal trial. I took her comment to mean she is still understandably upset about the world finding about her abuse as a child in a tabloid. 

Would she prefer no one ever found out what Josh did as a teen and that the everything had stayed swept under the carpet? Hard to say, but my guess is yes, she would have preferred that, and I get it. The irony is, though, that Josh almost certainly would have gotten a significantly lighter sentence had his earlier crimes stayed hidden and never been considered during sentencing.  And he'd be back home in a few years with his still very young children and submissive wife.

 

[MomKB]

I had never heard of this Paul and Morgan, but his smug look when she said wives have to submit tells me all I need to know. 

[Gobsmacked]

On 6/2/2023 at 10:20 PM, TN-peach said:

Question though - Derick ever sign one?  They only talk about Jill signing it and it was right before her wedding. 

JB knew deep down that Derick would have asked to read before signing. He wasn’t married in quite yet so not a family member willing to Jump for JB.  

[CanadianMamam]

2 minutes ago, MomKB said:

I had never heard of this Paul and Morgan, but his smug look when she said wives have to submit tells me all I need to know. 

Yeah, he oozes slime.

My husband loves to tell the story of our marriage prep class. The priest was explaining how the vows have changed over the years and singled me out and asked me if I would vow to obey and I said "no", the whole class laughed. I like to point out my husband knew exactly what he was getting with me 😂

[FilleMondaine]

As for the CSAM, there is just enough to tell you about Josh’s sheer depravity. Not all the details, but enough to be disturbing and triggering. I think it was episode 4, but obviously I am too shook up to quite remember exactly.

As far as Jill wanting it not mentioned, I will say that the kindest thing that we can do is respect their time to tell or not tell their story. And sometimes, we survivors just want to live life sometimes without the reminder. But because it was so public and the whole world knows, she won’t even have the ability ever again to go out and enjoy life without the threat of a pitying look and a whole new reminder.

Too many cooks is a swell way to describe this doc!

Sorry for not quoting well or doing an @, only that I am on a mobile, and it always outsmarts me.

[noseybutt]

4 minutes ago, FilleMondaine said:

As for the CSAM, there is just enough to tell you about Josh’s sheer depravity. Not all the details, but enough to be disturbing and triggering. I think it was episode 4, but obviously I am too shook up to quite remember exactly.

As far as Jill wanting it not mentioned, I will say that the kindest thing that we can do is respect their time to tell or not tell their story. And sometimes, we survivors just want to live life sometimes without the reminder. But because it was so public and the whole world knows, she won’t even have the ability ever again to go out and enjoy life without the threat of a pitying look and a whole new reminder.

Too many cooks is a swell way to describe this doc!

Sorry for not quoting well or doing an @, only that I am on a mobile, and it always outsmarts me.

The bolded is beautifully stated.

I kind of wish I could retract my “work in progress” comment about Jill. Because she feels what she feels and it’s her story.

Maybe a better way to phrase it: Oh that we lived in a society that attached zero shame to being a survivor. 

[Jackie3]

1 hour ago, FilleMondaine said:

 she won’t even have the ability ever again to go out and enjoy life without the threat of a pitying look and a whole new reminder.

 

You had me this until this.  She can't enjoy life because of the "threat" of a "pitying look"? 

How strange that a pitying look can stop her from enjoying life. And I speak as a survivor myself.

There are plenty of people enjoying life to the fullest under much harsher conditions. 

If a pitying look  is going to mess up Jill's life, she needs to get therapy asap to develop some resilience and inner strength. She must still be internalizing a belief that Josh's abuse was her fault, and carrying a lot of shame. 

Of course, the media was wrong for breaking that story. But Jill has nothing to be ashamed of and she needs to learn that. 

[Evil Feminist]

On 6/3/2023 at 12:10 PM, noseybutt said:

Oh goodness I completely forgot about College Plus! I remember hearing about it through a homeschooling support group circa 2008-2010. Would love to hear more of you perspective.

I remember being fascinated that a group could take something so hated (academia/higher education) and mine it for the credential and little else.

CPlus was a great way to get an inexpensive, accredited college degree and stay under your parents control and authority. I think that quite a few girls signed up so they could get a degree in case they needed one to homeschool future children and to keep themselves busy while waiting for marriage and children. 

Most, if not all, of the early coaches and employees had been in IBLP/ATI and had spent time in the Verity program. For awhile CPlus would only allow male interns at their onsite offices in TX and WA. Much like VF and their male only intern team. VF and CP had a annual soccer match that was only for males even after CP started hiring onsite female staff. They got to watch and cheer from the sidelines. 

The premise of studying for CLEP and DSST tests to avoid the time and expense of college courses works, but it's definitely not for everyone. A lot of students seemed to  struggle, especially younger ones and so many had family responsibilities that came first over studying. I overheard comments from coaches about the slow progress of the Duggar and Bates kids.  Wonder why. But the Duggar girls even had their coach living with them for awhile. Not sure about the Duggar boys coach. 

For awhile, it was possible to completely test for all the credits required for a couple of the degrees offered by TESU. Not a great way to get a comprehensive education. I think it  also hurt some of the coaches ability to coach students through more complicated degrees if they didn't have at least some experience with online courses. Then CPlus also added their leadership courses and required all students to take the first two. I remember quite a bit of the material was from leaders in the fundie homeschool world. Voddie Baucham for example. The third had an in person capstone event with Jeff Myers. While an engaging speaker, he was very sexist and misogynistic. Hearing  questions from female students about how they could be leaders without stepping outside of their role as women and leading boys and men was infuriating. 

I heard of a convo with a student who thought it was normal ans right for a husband to discipline his wife, so that part of Tia Levings story did not surprise me. I don't know how common that was, but the other students in the convo I know of, were horrified and tried to get the student to understand how wrong that is. Of course, they had no issues with parents using corporal punishment on children. 

[noseybutt]

1 hour ago, Evil Feminist said:

CPlus was a great way to get an inexpensive, accredited college degree and stay under your parents control and authority. I think that quite a few girls signed up so they could get a degree in case they needed one to homeschool future children and to keep themselves busy while waiting for marriage and children. 

Most, if not all, of the early coaches and employees had been in IBLP/ATI and had spent time in the Verity program. For awhile CPlus would only allow male interns at their onsite offices in TX and WA. Much like VF and their male only intern team. VF and CP had a annual soccer match that was only for males even after CP started hiring onsite female staff. They got to watch and cheer from the sidelines. 

The premise of studying for CLEP and DSST tests to avoid the time and expense of college courses works, but it's definitely not for everyone. A lot of students seemed to  struggle, especially younger ones and so many had family responsibilities that came first over studying. I overheard comments from coaches about the slow progress of the Duggar and Bates kids.  Wonder why. But the Duggar girls even had their coach living with them for awhile. Not sure about the Duggar boys coach. 

For awhile, it was possible to completely test for all the credits required for a couple of the degrees offered by TESU. Not a great way to get a comprehensive education. I think it  also hurt some of the coaches ability to coach students through more complicated degrees if they didn't have at least some experience with online courses. Then CPlus also added their leadership courses and required all students to take the first two. I remember quite a bit of the material was from leaders in the fundie homeschool world. Voddie Baucham for example. The third had an in person capstone event with Jeff Myers. While an engaging speaker, he was very sexist and misogynistic. Hearing  questions from female students about how they could be leaders without stepping outside of their role as women and leading boys and men was infuriating. 

I heard of a convo with a student who thought it was normal ans right for a husband to discipline his wife, so that part of Tia Levings story did not surprise me. I don't know how common that was, but the other students in the convo I know of, were horrified and tried to get the student to understand how wrong that is. Of course, they had no issues with parents using corporal punishment on children. 

What’s interesting is that I don’t recall there ever being any kind of explicit connection between IBLP and College Plus advertised. It was marketed independently, of course.

[Bad Wolf]

The Duggars sed College+ , but I don't remember any of them getting a degree. Did Jill use it for her midwifery course?

[Manda]

Jill took some unaccredited online "midwifery course."

[Cam]

11 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I have a feeling Jinger was heavily prepped for interviews. She interviews much better now than in the past. I don’t know if Jill will have that. I’m sure MacArthur wanted Jinger to be perfect for interviews so he may have hired someone. Jill’s book interviews may not come off as flawless and easy as Jinger’s. Plus Jinger never talked about her family (the hard stuff) that Jill will be delving into. 

All very good points.

This thread moves fast! I finished episode 3. In episode 2, I thought Michelle came off looking bad. In the 3rd, it’s JB. He literally made bank off the backs of his daughters, then the prick turned around and used a huge chunk of the money defending Josh! Surely part of his motivation was a passive aggressive move against Jill and Derick. The had to be beside themselves. It’s a very tangled web.

Episode 3 briefly discusses how a dad is responsible for his daughter’s purity. It is all so nauseatingly disgusting.

About signing contracts, what happens if an unmarried kid signed then married. What provisions for the spouse? Do they sign some kind of prenuptial? 
 

 

1 hour ago, Manda said:

Jill took some unaccredited online "midwifery course."

I didn’t see a lot of the series, but caught a few where Jill was doing this. I could tell what a lightweight she was, she did not really seem to have a clue and her heart didn’t truly seem to be in it. Now I think it was something constructed by TLC for a convenient storyline and not something Jill sought out for herself.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Cam

[Cam]

7 hours ago, noseybutt said:

 

 IBLP is not everywhere equally. There are cultures where it finds more fertile ground because of the fit with what is already there and what is lacking. stated!

7 hours ago, noseybutt said:

While the documentary made the point that IBLP is in many states and countries, the way Jill spoke struck me as also embedded in Ozark culture. It’s very clannish and often speaking of abuse (or mental illness or addiction or the struggles of poverty) to anyone outside the family is considered more shameful than the abuse itself. 

 IBLP is not everywhere equally. There are cultures where it finds more fertile ground because of the fit with what is already there and what is lacking. 

Well said!

Did Jill and Derick watch the entire documentary and gain further insight?

 

[ladyicantxplain]

I've taken a two year sabbatical away from FJ and much of the web, including social media, only to return after watching SHP in a binge today.

I find it to be well-done as a former gothard-ite church member (I was in a gothardite cult in MN for a couple of years about twenty years ago).

(FYI: I won't capitalize the man's name anymore.)

I could easily ask an atheist friend to watch this to help them understand why I used to be the way I used to be, and they could walk away saying, "Ahhhhh, I get it now, girl."

Very impressed with Jill.

Jim Bob is a malignant narcissist of the highest degree.

11 hours ago, CanadianMamam said:

I think it was a combination of the documentary team sniffing around (they got dumped around when filming was starting) and the George Floyd comment. I think they might have been able to survive the George Floyd comment if there wasn't another potential big scandal looking, just like I think the documentary itself would not have been a factor of the Bates hadn't been currently embroiled in a scandal. 

What was the George Floyd comment, please?

On 6/3/2023 at 4:14 PM, Jackie3 said:

I agree. It's disjointed (I've only seen two so far).

I was puzzled by the brief segway into Christian domestic discipline. Out of nowhere, they started talking about "corner time" and "choosing implements". Apparently, fundie women are spanked for forgetting to call their husband's lord? Where did that come from?

I suppose there may be fundie families where this sort of thing is practiced, but I've never heard Kelly Bates call Gil "Lord" or "sir." Or Michelle Duggar for that matter. There's no need to make the fundies crazier than they really are!

 

CDD (Christian Domestic Discipline) was endorsed and practiced within the gothardite cult I was in almost twenty years ago.

I would awaken to the lady of the house (I was a live-in domestic) lying prostrate at the feet of her husband, saying, "Lord, my Lord..."

Ugh.