Shiny Happy People: A Duggar and IBLP Documentary

[neuroticcat]

6 hours ago, Columbia said:

Did anybody see IBLP’s “response” to the documentary?

 

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The most recent “documentary,” about IBLP, is a reflection of today’s culture. Its misleading and untruthful commentary mocks that which is good and moral in the most sensationalized way possible, both for shock value and for profit. Media story makers are anything but fair and balanced. They produce attractively packaged content to push an agenda, increase viewership, and pursue revenue. We do not want to minimize perspectives that individual people have experienced or expressed, but the creators of these types of “documentaries” have a different agenda than perhaps even those interviewed by them. One-sided and manipulative “journalistic” tactics offer no alternative perspectives for the viewers, and many good people are manipulated and used while others are maligned and attacked.

IBLP is neither a church nor a religion but rather a nondenominational Christian ministry that desires to introduce individuals to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and to help them apply Christian principles found in God’s Word. IBLP affirms and teaches historic Christianity.

For more than sixty years, these principles of God’s Word were taught through the Basic Seminar and other ministries. While selected sound bites of the Seminar teaching may be found on the internet, anyone who wants to know the full context of the teaching, can view the Basic Seminar, free of charge, at basicseminar.com. Several million people from around the world and from many different walks of life, churches, denominations, nationalities, and personal Christian experiences have been positively impacted by our ministry. 

Only the Bible can guide us in these and other areas of life, and IBLP exists to help believers on this journey. Our sincere desire is to help families discover the Lord Jesus Christ, the Scriptures, salvation, and sanctification only by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

The founder, Bill Gothard, resigned from IBLP in 2014 and is no longer associated with the IBLP ministry. The focus of this ministry is the Lord Jesus Christ and the practical truths found in Scripture, and not any single person or family. IBLP will always be about helping people find Christ and the timeless values of the Bible that bring hope and stability to each facet of life. Ultimately, every one of us will give an account to God for our lives and choices and those will be evaluated against the perfect standards of His Word. 

These attacks, as salacious and false as they may be, will cause many to search out our ministry and discover the truth for themselves. For this we are grateful because we know that our aim and our efforts are all designed to help people find God’s love, redemption, and their best lives.   

Sadly, we live in a day where this Gospel is not accepted readily but is, even vehemently, rejected. We affirm the Bible as our final authority, and sadly, this life-changing Book is also rejected by the world. Our desire is that the Person of Jesus Christ would be lifted up and that all men would be drawn to Him, as Jesus stated in John 12:32: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

 

Gothard himself also emerged from hiding to tweet about it.

 

5 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’m a bit annoyed that Jim Holt said something very quickly I the first episode that I wish was touched on more. He said TLC finished their huge house which was like $100,000 plus worth of work. I want to talk about how the Duggars would have lived if TLC had never come along. They would have been working on that house for years to come. Living in a half finished work zone. Expecting teenagers to do the work. Just like Bret Alan Smith expected his teenagers to do a shitload of work they had no experience in. And that’s why his 18 year old daughter ended up dead from a tree hitting her when she was helping to cut an entire tree down with little to no experience. 

Yes. He said 200K so they could finish. They also later showed a clip of all the kids working on the Bates remodel when they were focusing on child exploitation BUT they did not say it was for the Bates. 

I wonder if current IBLP board threatened to sue or something and they had to dodge legal things and only focus on Gothard.

Edited June 2, 2023 by neuroticcat

[neuroticcat]

5 hours ago, Antimony said:

I'm mid-Ep 2 and I feel, well, freshly bad for Jill. Always have, but it's clear that she isn't necessarily done deconstructing but she is at some point in the process. 

What is interesting, though, and I wonder if she's here - there is a lot of talk of the "burden" she had and she understands very clearly that she was in a unique position. She even says it, that she was the only one who could fix it. That's a huge burden. It's also, and Jim Bob never wanted her to figure this out, a huge source of power. I think she's starting to recognize that. It's just an interesting dichotomy here. Burden or power.

What's so striking to me is she still carries that burden in a way. She's the one going public - yes to reclaim her story and also maybe to do the right thing. It's kind of a catch-22. I started crying when she talked about "no one should ever have this happen to anyone else again." I am glad she is going public and hope she gets a lot of support but she clearly never wanted it to all happen so publicly.

I know we've discussed on here that it's often the true believers who end up making it out, because they really were trying to be virtuous or selfless or all the things they were told to do. They wanted to help people. And I think that maybe makes sense for Jill and Jessa.

[FilleMondaine]

Ok, watching episode 1, now.

can someone help me understand why Derrick is so cringe? I couldn’t keep track of the Dugger threads.

And oh em gee YES, it is wild to know about something here, and the. It shows up later on the news. The wildest was the Remnant plane crash in real time!

[Jasmar]

20 hours ago, thoughtful said:

The second episode gets more into the wisdom booklets. All of the quotes from the booklets, the slut-shaming, racism, and crappy anti-science stuff is read in a gentle, righteous-sounding female voice-over. As a reminder that this shit was being taught to children by their mothers and older sisters, it's a nice touch.

 

My daughter and I just finished - took us eight hours to get through all four episodes as we processed so much of what we went through as Christian homeschoolers (and I learned that there was a LOT of shit my kids were taught behind my back). We did a lot of laughing, too, including joking about how talented that voice actress was!

[FleeJanaFree]

I watched it all and didn’t really learn anything that shocked me. i didn’t find it explosive. It’s a good doc for people less familiar with IBLP/duggars. I do wish they went a little harder and mentioned Gil bates for example. 
 

jill Rod does make a very brief appearance! (In episode 4 I think, a clip of her talking about gender dress code) got a jump scare there and I’m sure she’ll make a social media post about it. 
 

I like that Jill Dillard drew some boundaries about what she was willing to talk about and derrick did seem supportive. 

krista gay (ex fundie, has been in some Duggar shows,  who is now a lawyer in New York) addresses the doc on her instagram. I really really like her and enjoy reading her opinions on religion. She is very balanced and open minded. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by FleeJanaFree

[AnnaSofia]

Overall, I thought it was well done. There's probably not a single detail active FJers or Reddit snarkers didn't already know, but for people just casually aware of the TLC show, or the shit show surrounding Josh, it did a great job of explaining just how toxic the culture behind the "Shiny Happy" facade was. Even as someone familiar with the details, it drew me in in a way that the Gwen Shamblin documentary (for example) didn't. I watched the "The Way Down" in it's entirety, but really only did so because I was already invested in the subject. If I'd casually run across it suggested on a streaming site while knowing nothing of the backstory, I don't think it would have kept me hooked. I think this one would have.

It went pretty hard on (heh) Gothard, thought I didn't think it went nearly hard enough on JB, or on TLC for that matter. I feel like TLC has yet to get the backlash it truly deserves for both general cultural reasons (the absolute trash it made it's fortune off of) or legal ones. I get that the Duggar offspring were technically signed with JB's "production company", but I can't believe that no one at TLC (including their lawyers) caught things like JB and Michelle signing for kids who were no longer minors. There's no excuse for a modern company to not have their ducks in a row, for "let's cover our asses legally" reasons if no other.

Jim Holt can fuck himself off into the sun. You have him making the accurate observation that his daughter was being used by JB as a "carrot" to dangle in front of Josh to make him behave, without expressing any personal guilt, humility, or even general self-awareness about his own role in the cult (or, at very least, the culture) that led his family to be in that position in the first place. Not the biggest Bobye fan either, but at least her testimony at Josh's trial gives her a bit of late-in-the-game redemption.

Could have done with about 80% less cousin Amy (and 100% less Amy's husband). She clung to the fringes of that circus like a barnacle as long as she thought she might get something out of it. Hell, it's presumably the only reason she was even known professionally by the name Duggar at all (her first album was as Amy Jordyn). I find it incredibly difficult to believe that she wouldn't have distanced herself from JB and family years ago if they'd just been her weird, fundie relatives who *weren't* the face of a popular television show. Even Deanna annoyed me a bit with her whinging about how everything came as a total surprise to her. I can fully believe that JB did everything he could to sweep Josh's actions under the rug, and yet I got a very "protests too much" vibe from Deanna. Especially with the Holts insisting that it was a bit of an open secret.

Wasn't crazy about the whitewashing of Derrick, but I suppose it's to be expected if the documentary producers wanted Jill onboard.

Not sure why Paul & Morgan got such a huge montage of clips compared to other fundies mentioned. I guess it's because they were willing to sit down for an interview. but honestly it seemed like undeserved publicity for their channel, even if they did come away looking like complete and utter idiots.

The Bates are so DEEPLY up the asshole of IBLP leadership that it felt very strange to spend so much time going after the organization and not even mention them (other than being pictured very briefly). Did they threaten to sue or something?

Edited June 2, 2023 by AnnaSofia

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 minutes ago, AnnaSofia said:

Overall, I thought it was well done. There's probably not a single detail active FJers or Reddit snarkers didn't already know, but for people just casually aware of the TLC show, or the shit show surrounding Josh, it did a great job of explaining just how toxic the culture behind the "Shiny Happy" facade was. Even as someone familiar with the details, it drew me in in a way that the Gwen Shamblin documentary (for example) didn't. I watched the "The Way Down" in it's entirety, but really only did so because I was already invested in the subject. If I'd casually run across it suggested on a streaming site while knowing nothing of the backstory, I don't think it would have kept me hooked. I think this one would have.

It went pretty hard on (heh) Gothard, thought I didn't think it went nearly hard enough on JB, or on TLC for that matter. I feel like TLC has yet to get the backlash it truly deserves for both general cultural reasons (the absolute trash it made it's fortune off of) or legal ones. I get that the Duggar offspring were technically signed with JB's "production company", but I can't believe that no one at TLC (including their lawyers) caught things like JB and Michelle signing for kids who were no longer minors. There's no excuse for a modern company to not have their ducks in a row, for "let's cover our asses legally" reasons if no other.

Jim Holt can fuck himself off into the sun. You have him making the accurate observation that his daughter was being used by JB as a "carrot" to dangle in front of Josh to make him behave, without expressing any personal guilt, humility, or even general self-awareness about his own role in the cult (or, at very least, the culture) that led his family to be in that position in the first place. Not the biggest Bobye fan either, but at least her testimony at Josh's trial gives her a bit of late-in-the-game redemption.

Could have done with about 80% less cousin Amy (and 100% less Amy's husband). She clung to the fringes of that circus like a barnacle as long as she thought she might get something out of it. Hell, it's presumably the only reason she was even known professionally by the name Duggar at all (her first album was as Amy Jordyn). I find it incredibly difficult to believe that she wouldn't have distanced herself from JB and family years ago if they'd just been her weird, fundie relatives who *weren't* the face of a popular television show. Even Deanna annoyed me a bit with her whinging about how everything came as a total surprise to her. I can fully believe that JB did everything he could to sweep Josh's actions under the rug, and yet I got a very "protests too much" vibe from Deanna. Especially with the Holts insisting that it was a bit of an open secret.

Wasn't crazy about the whitewashing of Derrick, but I suppose it's to be expected if the documentary producers wanted Jill onboard.

Not sure why Paul & Morgan got such a huge montage of clips compared to other fundies mentioned. I guess it's because they were willing to sit down for an interview. but honestly it seemed like undeserved publicity for their channel, even if they did come away looking like complete and utter idiots.

The Bates are so DEEPLY up the asshole of IBLP leadership that it felt very strange to spend so much time going after the organization and not even mention them (other than being pictured very briefly). Did they threaten to sue or something?

I kind of wish Paul and Morgan had their interview cut out. They are annoying. Paul would be so pissed if their interview got cut out. However it was very short. I bet they said a lot more and Paul is probably mad most was left on the cutting room floor. 

[Antimony]

10 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I kind of wish Paul and Morgan had their interview cut out. They are annoying. Paul would be so pissed if their interview got cut out. However it was very short. I bet they said a lot more and Paul is probably mad most was left on the cutting room floor. 

They're already pissed off. Paul has informed us that "the gloves are coming off". 

Timbers shall shiver, to be sure. 

[AnnaSofia]

7 minutes ago, Antimony said:

They're already pissed off. Paul has informed us that "the gloves are coming off". 

Timbers shall shiver, to be sure. 

🤣

[Evil Feminist]

6 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

What Josh did was horrific and there is understandably a lot of focus on it.

However, it surprises me that there is little attention on what Amy revealed. She confirmed that the Duggar kids were being beaten (probably with PVC piping) on a regular basis. That's a crime, too!

If Michelle "encouraged" 2-3 kids per day, that's over 1000 beatings per year, beatings where a small child is whipped with a rod.

Michelle's been a parent for 35 years, let's say this has been going on for 30 years. That means the Duggar parents have administered 30,000 beatings. Call it 20,000 to be conservative (she's probably not doing it much nowadays). 

And how many of the 2nd gen Duggar parents are buying PVC pipe at the store? Are Mackynzie and Michael living with a mom who does these things? It's possible

What Josh did was evil but it happened maybe a couple dozen times. The physical abuse of those children was an ongoing, daily event that affected every one of them, every day. It deserves more attention in the documentary (admittedly, I have only seen the first episode and bits of the second).

I hadn't thought of it from this angle and how frequently they were beating their kids or threatening them with it. Makes me incredibly sick. Because hitting children's bottoms with plumbing line isn't just physical abuse. Its sexual assault. Josh is sick and what he did was wrong. But JB and M were inflicting sexual violence on  their children on a daily basis. And then to call it fucking "encouragement". Very few people will bring up the sexual connection to spanking. I've only found a couple ex-fundies that address it and Sheila Wray Gregoire wrote about it last year. Dr Stacey Patton really explains it well. Its been eye opening to discover her material. If I believed in hell, I would hope there was a special place just for people who hit their children and call it spanking or even encouragement. 

[TuringMachine]

I'm halfway through episode 3 now and this episode seems to jump around the most. Weaving Jill's financial abuse / TLC departure with the sexual abuse that was rampant in IBLP doesn't really flow. I guess they're trying to give context to Jill's lack of perceived choice in doing the show and signing contracts but I think that would have worked better with the umbrella of authority stuff. 

Speaking of which, the Gothard teachings seeping into the military was not something I think I really knew about. And it's a scary thought. Made me think about how avian safely has pretty much gone the opposite route of authoritarianism after finding that the unwillingness to question a captain was a contributing factor in plane disasters such as the tenerife airport disaster.

[smittykins]

7 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’m a bit annoyed that Jim Holt said something very quickly I the first episode that I wish was touched on more. He said TLC finished their huge house which was like $100,000 plus worth of work. I want to talk about how the Duggars would have lived if TLC had never come along. They would have been working on that house for years to come. Living in a half finished work zone. Expecting teenagers to do the work. Just like Bret Alan Smith expected his teenagers to do a shitload of work they had no experience in. And that’s why his 18 year old daughter ended up dead from a tree hitting her when she was helping to cut an entire tree down with little to no experience. 

I don’t know if it’s true or not, but I read(possibly on Reddit)that when TLC got involved, they had to pretty much tear down what the Duggars had built and start over, because inexperienced workers(including children).

[eljayem]

I just watched the doco series - Amy and her husband - her husband especially - gives no fucks. The snark he has for the Duggar family is hilarious.

Wish they had put the spotlight on the current IBLP hierarchy. Gothard may have been booted out but there's probably still a lot of abuse and harm happening.

[JermajestyDuggar]

That’s my only complaint. That they didn’t name the current board that is running IBLP. Jim Bob may have wanted to run it, but the board has the most power currently. And one person on the board had a show on TLC too.

[TuringMachine]

3 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

That’s my only complaint. That they didn’t name the current board that is running IBLP. Jim Bob may have wanted to run it, but the board has the most power currently. And one person on the board had a show on TLC too.

Yeah there is a criminal lack of Batesesss here. Where's the Happy birthday mr Gothard "Grooms cake"?

[Columbia]

I’m assuming that this is DPIAT’s take on the documentary. 

[Jasmar]

2 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

I know we've discussed on here that it's often the true believers who end up making it out, because they really were trying to be virtuous or selfless or all the things they were told to do. They wanted to help people.

This is exactly what happened to my oldest daughter and me. I really want to write and talk about it, because there’s so much trauma there, but I’m a little too shaken right now. It was weird, I felt such elation when it was over, just over the moon excited that FINALLY people outside of FJ and Reddit would be learning about this stuff. But then my body started to tremble, and after spending about 15 minutes putting dinner together, just started sobbing. I’m still not entirely sure why, and I don’t regret watching at all. But it’s hard.

[JermajestyDuggar]

5 minutes ago, Columbia said:

I’m assuming that this is DPIAT’s take on the documentary. 

He’s allowed to rebrand himself as some sort of VF guru back in the early 2000s and sell books but if someone else does it then that’s bad. He’s just worried someone will make a documentary about his downfall now that there’s a Hillsong documentary and a an IBLP documentary. 

[Columbia]

4 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

He’s just worried someone will make a documentary about his downfall now that there’s a Hillsong documentary and a an IBLP documentary. 

From your mouth to some producer’s ears. 

[SassyPants]

I have learned something. Gothard is EIGHTY EIGHT years old, will turn 89 in November. Holy hell!

Also Jim Holt, looks like Mike Pompeo. 

Edited June 3, 2023 by SassyPants

[JermajestyDuggar]

I am going to point out that Bobye and one of their adult sons has a restraining order against Jim Holt. I don’t trust Jim Holt as far as I can throw him. I would listen to Bobye long before I would listen to Jim. And I hope she’s much happier and feels safer now that they are separated. 

Edited June 3, 2023 by JermajestyDuggar

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

I've watched 3 episodes on freevee so I can't watch the 4th.

I seem to have a different take to most of you. I think maybe because many of you are more deep into the full fundie soup than me.

I only have kept up with some duggars, some bates, and jrod. I dont know who any of the other people are in the doc. I didn't have first hand exp of homeschooling. I've had several friends become quiverfull and have a passing knowledge of iblp etc.

For me, the doc was confusing. What is the main topic? Fundie bad?

It jumped around so much between what probably should be like 5 different documentaries depending on what topic you want to delve into.

Jill did not explain much. And what she did go into detail was about not getting paid. Which is exploitive sure....but if the doc is about iblp/Gothard then jill not getting paid was a side issue.

If it's about JB duggar is becoming a controlling megalomaniac then all the deep dive into Gothard is distracting. 

If it's about gothard/ibpl power rise then the focus on Josh duggar was pulling focus. And they definitely should have gone into bates.

I found most of what Amy said did not explain or deepen  the narrative. Her husband seemed like a rude asshat. He's joking and interrupting her in a doc about men controlling women. I felt like they didn't cut that out to make a subtle jab.

The Amy note about the probable beatings was the most noteworthy thing she said. Did they ask Jill about that?

And other than "ex-ibpl" identifiers I don't know who any of those other people were and whether they have any significance beyond being victims. Which is significant to them, but why were these particular people interviewed? 

The cult expert lady was handy when she randomly came on. And I feel like the guy with dark hair who sat alone had more of a let me explain the greater significance vibe.

I feel like maybe a narrator or consistent expert tying the victim statements together would have brought it together to be more than the component parts.

I found the couple minute focus on the paramilitary section disturbing. And would like to see a whole documentary focused on that. I started thinking which duggar was the one we saw graduate from there...what did they do to him? What thought bombs got planted in his psyche? What about the police and prison training!

Police in America are pretty stuck on "obey me or i shoot" did that come from.iblp?! From several places? I want to know more. Scary stuff and they glossed by it so quickly.

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by WatchingTheTireFireBurn
Typing on phone is hard

[Mabel]

I agree, the overall “point” wasn’t very clear other than what you said, fundies are bad. I also felt like it was very disjointed. We go from talking about Josh’s crimes to the young fundie generation, back to JB being bad. I think it would have helped if each episode had a specific topic. Like just one devoted on Josh, just one devoted on the upcoming fundie generation, and so forth. 

[eljayem]

Yeah I'm not sure if it was intentional or not but they focused a lot on what has happened in the past with no clarity on how things stand now now. Is that for legal reasons, or do they not know? The way they described IBLP with it's diffuse organisation structure makes me wonder if it's permeated everywhere - and was that the point they were wanting to make? For example Amy would not consider herself IBLP but she grew up with close cousins that were. Take the TLC show and the the FBI investigation into Josh out of the equation and she just has a branch of her family that that she would describe as "more conservative". That could describe a lot of extended families, work colleagues etc

Edited June 3, 2023 by eljayem

[SassyPants]

So how much money was each family dishing to Bill Gothard? Can’t believe that JB was that generous with his treasure.