Trace Bates 3

[SassyPants]

So Lydia and her adult brother separated from her parents’ case, but did not do their due diligence for beginning a new case based on her marrying an American citizen?

Did she think because she married a citizen that she is guaranteed the ability to stay legally in the US without having to complete a long process? 

 

[Keys]

11 hours ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

My understanding is that they arrived during the Obama administration and therefore were dealing with Obama's ICE and cabinet on the asylum request. While Trace and Lydia's father (in older videos) state that Obama denied the request for asylum, their request was denied on the grounds that being fined for not following a law is not persecution. If the law states you don't do something, you fight the law and try to get a new law. You don't break it and then act shocked when you are fined and your children are removed from your custody (temporarily for that family). They appealed the denial to the Immigration Appeals Board. They went on television and radio (Glenn Beck, Huckabee, etc.) and on church speaking tours. Trace earlier said he and the other Bates heard Lydia's parents or heard of them and prayed for them. There was a petition and supposedly people were demanding that Obama reverse the denial and explain why it happened. Meanwhile, Lydia's father was giving interviews that he and his family were seeking religious freedom but that the US was in danger of losing that under Obama. Then why did they come to the US? They claimed that under Obama that cabinet members had said it would not be unconstitutional to ban homeschooling. 

The Immigration Appeals Board denied their request for asylum and the federal court system upheld that denial. They then filed a lawsuit and tried to get it up to the Supreme Court. That didn't work and the case wasn't ever heard at that level. So in around 2014 they were offered indefinite status. That meant they weren't under immediate threat of deportation but couldn't go forward with citizenship either. It is a supervised status, meaning they have to register each and every year in order to get work visas and even be able to drive. However, they can't have a US passport and can't really leave the country because they would probably not be allowed back in the US. Lydia was quoted in an article around their wedding that she wanted a passport to take Trace to Germany to show him where she was born.

Per the video today from Trace, Lydia and her family went to the yearly appointment and were asked about their passports from Germany. I'm not clear on if they have those or not. I'm thinking not. They were told rather than a year from now they need to come back in a few months. Trace said they were facing self deportation. The problem here is that we only have Trace's account and he's not really the sharpest tool in the shed. 

A few other things of note: 

Lydia was part of her parents lawsuit, as was her married brother. They have petitioned or been taken off said lawsuit so that they can pursue residency and citizenship because they are married to US citizens. In many such cases, the undocumented spouse must return to the birth country and file for residency from there. It appears that Trace was thinking Lydia could skip that part of things. 

Some people have questioned why the US government is suddenly paying attention to the family. I would say it is probably two fold. 

1. They have been vocal critics of the government while trying to seek political asylum here. That is a red flag to the government. However, I don't see anything that would indicate why the US is worried about them now from that standpoint.

2. The timing that is significant is that Lydia was visibly pregnant during the visit to do the paperwork this time. Immigration officials might have made note of that and realized the family was becoming more and more entrenched into US life. If the US was going to remove them or deport them, the fact that the family is marrying off children, having grandchildren, etc. could have triggered some sort of review. 

3. In the video that the Romeike family put out, the father claims that Immigration officials told him that his family was on deferred status but offered no paperwork to support that. He claimed he asked for it and that the official said, "you just have to trust us." I'm not sure I buy that story.

Thanks so much for taking the time to explain all this!

[rebeccawriter01]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

So Lydia and her adult brother separated from her parents’ case, but did not do their due diligence for beginning a new case based on her marrying an American citizen?

Did she think because she married a citizen that she is guaranteed the ability to stay legally in the US without having to complete a long process? 

 

So because they weren't and aren't considered refugees, the best and only way to gain citizenship or resident status would be for Lydia and her brother to apply from Germany. In the US there isn't really a program or pathway that allows an undocumented person to become a citizen while here without permission. The exception to that is if the person who is the refugee is in some sort of danger if they return to the country of origin. Even that is a bit tricky because danger isn't defined as I don't feel safe. It is defined as a viable threat. So you can't say I won't return to country X because the crime rate is high and these things are happening all around my family. It has to be something like the government has said if I return I will be executed or all homes have been destroyed by the war and guards are preventing me from entering. That is not the case with Lydia or her brother.

Lydia's marital status essentially is a non-factor in this sort of immigration decision. At best she can point to it and say he is providing her a home and lifestyle and that she wouldn't be a burden on government resources. I hate that term but that's how some view it. 

The Romeike family appears to have come here with the help of some homeschooling legal defense group. The parents assumed they could just get in and claim religious persecution. When that was turned down and they lost their appeal, they didn't seem to have a plan and just continued on year to year. I don't know if Lydia thought the marriage (and baby) would help, but I'm betting Trace thought in that direction.  

[rebeccawriter01]

4 hours ago, freethemall said:

Okay a few clarifications based on my experience in working in immigration processes:

-You apply for asylum, not sue for it. They tries that after the denial, it didn't work. None of this is a lawsuit, because the family is on the defensive not offensive and they are not entitled to it. Any current lawsuit i think they mean they are appealing their original asylum and withholding application denial and trying to get the withholding of removal which they previously got via deferred action

 

The Romeikes came to the U.S on a ninety-day visa and applied for asylum. It was granted by one judge and then denied on appeal by the government. The BIA appeal did not work in the family's favor. The argument appears to be around the definition of who is subject to persecution. Current thinking is that a refugee is “an alien who is unwilling or unable to return to his or her home country ‘because of persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion." The Romeikes and the HSLDA state that homeschooling falls into that definition. The US government does not agree.

The lawsuit being mentioned is in reference to a court petition by HSLDA regarding the appeal process and denial. It was done in an effort to reopen the case. Because it is referred to as HSLDA "litigating on behalf of a German family that is seeking asylum in the United States" it is for appearance's sake like a lawsuit that was filed in order to bring attention to the issue. 

HSLDA and Focus on the Family had filed suit on behalf of several families, including the Romeikes who they refer to as "modern day pilgrims." Nothing ever came of that one.  

 

[gobucks]

It is interesting that the youngest child of theirs that is a German citizen is now 18. It makes me wonder if ICE feels that they are now safe to return as they are out of school age. I know nothing about these things but I found that quite a coincidence. 

[arareyeah]

This is quite interesting to see how it'll end up. My dad's aunt moved to the US back in 95 because her husband was hired by Boeing. IIRC back in 1999 her whole fam was forbidden to leave the US soil for a full year as part of the green card process (not sure about her current citizenship status but she still lives there despite her husband took early retirement last year. I'll ask.) The most recent one is a friend. Her husband is an American but they lived in our country after she got pregnant. Exactly a year ago her fam went to the US, it was supposed to be a 2 months long vacation but changed into moving permanently to the US somehow. I'm not sure what kind of visa she uses beforehand (visitor? spousal?) but AFAIK, she's in the process of applying for a green card for the time being. But of course, both of these cases are through regular and very legal proceedings, unlike the Romeikes.

[Keys]

I wonder if this situation with make any of the Bates reconsider their political stances. Or, probably more likely not, given what others have said about the video by Trace. It’s hard to believe how strong their cognitive dissonance is sometimes. 

[JDuggs]

6 hours ago, llucie said:

If they get deported to Germany at least their vlogs will be interesting for once!

While I’ll assume that Trace is probably worried about the situation, I’m sure there’s  a part of him thinking that this is good content and he finally has something unique and interesting going on in his life.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

So because they weren't and aren't considered refugees, the best and only way to gain citizenship or resident status would be for Lydia and her brother to apply from Germany. In the US there isn't really a program or pathway that allows an undocumented person to become a citizen while here without permission. The exception to that is if the person who is the refugee is in some sort of danger if they return to the country of origin. Even that is a bit tricky because danger isn't defined as I don't feel safe. It is defined as a viable threat. So you can't say I won't return to country X because the crime rate is high and these things are happening all around my family. It has to be something like the government has said if I return I will be executed or all homes have been destroyed by the war and guards are preventing me from entering. That is not the case with Lydia or her brother.

Lydia's marital status essentially is a non-factor in this sort of immigration decision. At best she can point to it and say he is providing her a home and lifestyle and that she wouldn't be a burden on government resources. I hate that term but that's how some view it. 

The Romeike family appears to have come here with the help of some homeschooling legal defense group. The parents assumed they could just get in and claim religious persecution. When that was turned down and they lost their appeal, they didn't seem to have a plan and just continued on year to year. I don't know if Lydia thought the marriage (and baby) would help, but I'm betting Trace thought in that direction.  

I actually love that this happening and that we are getting a chance to discuss it here. Every time people scream, “I am for legal immigration”, I always say that they have no idea what they are talking about. There are some countries where there are almost zero current paths for legal immigration to the US. Let that sink in. For many others the wait is decades long. The hoops that folks need to jump through are many and costly; well beyond marrying a US citizen or birthing a child on US soil. My daughter has walked the path in reverse. Immigrating or emigrating are both stressful and costly processes, and generally only the privileged and well connected need apply.

I know that if I needed to illegally cross a border to protect my family or feed by children, I would do so in a heart beat. Most sane people would.

Lots of folks (the Bates included) are clueless on this issue. Time they get educated.

[Manda]

A family friend ended up getting married in Canada.  Her now husband was banned either permanently or long term from the US for working here illegally.  They were going to live in NY after the wedding, but have been living in London..  Over staying one's visa or breaking US laws while not a citizen can have long term consequences..

It's quite possible Lydia will have to return to Germany and file paperwork from there to come to the US as the spouse and/or parent of US citizens.  Sometimes the parent route is easier than the spouse route.  They are different categories with different allowable limits although I'm not sure on the parent route if the child has to be a certain age and able to petition for the parent.  

[SassyPants]

9 minutes ago, Manda said:

A family friend ended up getting married in Canada.  Her now husband was banned either permanently or long term from the US for working here illegally.  They were going to live in NY after the wedding, but have been living in London..  Over staying one's visa or breaking US laws while not a citizen can have long term consequences..

It's quite possible Lydia will have to return to Germany and file paperwork from there to come to the US as the spouse and/or parent of US citizens.  Sometimes the parent route is easier than the spouse route.  They are different categories with different allowable limits although I'm not sure on the parent route if the child has to be a certain age and able to petition for the parent.  

My daughter works with a man (American) who is married to a foreign woman from the same country as my SIL. Both families live in that foreign country. This friend, his wife and child immigrated to the US 6 years ago (legally) and stayed for a year. The wife (who was a professional worker in her own country) does not speak English and had a hard time adjusting to life in the US, so the family moved back to So America. According to my daughter, the family is now at the back of the queue for returning to the US. They had their chance, and it didn’t work. They may never get another chance. 

[Dandruff]

15 hours ago, GreenBeans said:

I’m sure they’d struggle in Germany, even with no more school aged children. In the US, they have a community of like-minded people, their views are common enough that, while not exactly mainstream, at least in their area and circle of friends, they are just part of the religious/political spectrum, at the very right, conservative end, but still normal enough. In Germany, they would be isolated. They would be part of tiny church of people with similar beliefs, but they would be considered a cult by everyone else. And some of the hate fundies spew would be considered a crime here. It would be very different from the US.

Trace's mastery of the English language seems far below Lydia's, who was born and spent her early years in Germany!  I can't imagine he'd do well learning German.  Could he even legally get a job there to support his family, assuming he could find one that accepted homeskool English?

[GreenBeans]

Just now, Dandruff said:

Could he even legally get a job there to support his family, assuming he could find one that accepted homeskool English?

I think it’s far easier to get a permanent visa to Germany when you are married to a German, than vice versa to the US. BUT you need to demonstrate at least basic skills of the German language to get the visa. It is super basic, but he’d have to study for it. And I’m not sure if he’d pass the integration test (he’d probably have to answer against his beliefs on some of those questions, with questions on a secular state and equality of man and woman…).

He’d probably be able to get some kind of job (delivery driver or something) once he has at least learned some basic German. But definitely nothing academic or an office job (Germans tend to put lots of emphasis on diplomas, it’s a hassle getting a foreign diploma recognized in Germany even with a legit school and profession, a home schooling diploma would count for nothing). And being overtly Christian in a professional context would be considered really, really weird here. No Christ-honoring lawn services here.

[GreenBeans]

Here is a summary of what is needed to apply to a visa to Germany as a spouse married to a German:

https://www.germany.info/blob/977612/1a7e6612a1988f364a5aafcf0d019357/familiy-reunion-german-familymember-data.pdf

Not many hoops to jump through, especially compared to the US.

Why? Because it’s considered a general human right to be with your family under German law (it’s the same with children).

Edited September 17, 2023 by GreenBeans

[SassyPants]

3 hours ago, arareyeah said:

This is quite interesting to see how it'll end up. My dad's aunt moved to the US back in 95 because her husband was hired by Boeing. IIRC back in 1999 her whole fam was forbidden to leave the US soil for a full year as part of the green card process (not sure about her current citizenship status but she still lives there despite her husband took early retirement last year. I'll ask.) The most recent one is a friend. Her husband is an American but they lived in our country after she got pregnant. Exactly a year ago her fam went to the US, it was supposed to be a 2 months long vacation but changed into moving permanently to the US somehow. I'm not sure what kind of visa she uses beforehand (visitor? spousal?) but AFAIK, she's in the process of applying for a green card for the time being. But of course, both of these cases are through regular and very legal proceedings, unlike the Romeikes.

Yes, I think all of these processes involve a stated period of time within the country over a given amount of time. As an example, my husband and I are eligible for residency in the So American country where our daughter and her family live. We meet residency requirements because we have a grandchild who is a citizen of the country, plus we own a home in that country. The hard part is, we have to stay in that country {contiguous}for 18/24 months to attain that residency. We can not do this at this time d/t work {my husband} and family {my aged parents} responsibilities.

Also, there’s lots of paperwork, money and lawyers involved. We had to get copies of our college transcripts {apostilled and notarized } and it needed to be noted if the classes were given in person or online. Um, I went to college in the 70s, there was no internet. Financial documents, fingerprints, state and federal level clearance, and on and on.

 

[BeccaGrim]

So I am confused about a lot of it because I don't think he's using the right terms or understands the law. But, when they "took the kids from their parents" in Germany, it was not to go to a foster home. It seems they were made to go to school. Lydia can remember being taken to school.  Presumably they went home at night, they just had to go to school. Am I understanding this correctly? 

[GreenBeans]

23 minutes ago, BeccaGrim said:

So I am confused about a lot of it because I don't think he's using the right terms or understands the law. But, when they "took the kids from their parents" in Germany, it was not to go to a foster home. It seems they were made to go to school. Lydia can remember being taken to school.  Presumably they went home at night, they just had to go to school. Am I understanding this correctly? 

I think at some point, when parents consistently refuse to let their children go to school, this is considered educational neglect, and just like other neglect can eventually lead to the children being taken out of the home. Because children have a right to receive a proper education (and this right prevails over the parents’ right to raise their children the way they see fit). I don’t know if this was the case with the Romeikes, though.

EDIT: If anyone cares to read, here is a judgment of the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) in a similar case: https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/app/conversion/docx/pdf?library=ECHR&id=001-188994&filename=CASE OF WUNDERLICH v. GERMANY.pdf&logEvent=False

Edited September 17, 2023 by GreenBeans
Added ECHR judgment for further information and background

[browngrl]

4 hours ago, Keys said:

I wonder if this situation with make any of the Bates reconsider their political stances.

It will not. The immigrants and refugees their political beliefs are about are of a darker skin shade than Lydia. Hypocrisy thy name is Bates. 

[freethemall]

7 hours ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

The Romeikes came to the U.S on a ninety-day visa and applied for asylum. It was granted by one judge and then denied on appeal by the government. The BIA appeal did not work in the family's favor. The argument appears to be around the definition of who is subject to persecution. Current thinking is that a refugee is “an alien who is unwilling or unable to return to his or her home country ‘because of persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion." The Romeikes and the HSLDA state that homeschooling falls into that definition. The US government does not agree.

The lawsuit being mentioned is in reference to a court petition by HSLDA regarding the appeal process and denial. It was done in an effort to reopen the case. Because it is referred to as HSLDA "litigating on behalf of a German family that is seeking asylum in the United States" it is for appearance's sake like a lawsuit that was filed in order to bring attention to the issue. 

HSLDA and Focus on the Family had filed suit on behalf of several families, including the Romeikes who they refer to as "modern day pilgrims." Nothing ever came of that one.  

 

Yes that gets to the point of what I was trying to say - lawsuits in this are irrelevant and convolute the various applications and appeals which all put the family on the defensive not offensive (though they are applying for affirmative asylum). 

Yeah so basically the US government saw through their BS asylum claim and was like yeah no.

2 hours ago, GreenBeans said:

I think at some point, when parents consistently refuse to let their children go to school, this is considered educational neglect, and just like other neglect can eventually lead to the children being taken out of the home. Because children have a right to receive a proper education (and this right prevails over the parents’ right to raise their children the way they see fit). I don’t know if this was the case with the Romeikes, though.

EDIT: If anyone cares to read, here is a judgment of the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) in a similar case: https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/app/conversion/docx/pdf?library=ECHR&id=001-188994&filename=CASE OF WUNDERLICH v. GERMANY.pdf&logEvent=False

I wish the US had a law like that. I'm curious if other countries in the EU do too and if that was part of their reasoning not to go anywhere in Europe but the US instead.

[JermajestyDuggar]

The US makes everything unnecessarily hard and expensive. It’s a wonder anyone actually wants to come here from Germany. Sorry but Germany seems to offer much more than the US in my opinion. Of course I’ll probably always live here and I have no desire to leave the US. But there is so much wrong with the way the US is run. 

[AussieKrissy]

On 9/17/2023 at 11:13 AM, rebeccawriter01 said:

From his garbled mess of a message, The youngest two were born in the US, but would probably go back with their parents to Germany rather than be separated. 

Lydia and her brother who are both married to US citizens are an interesting conundrum. There was a lawsuit to grant asylum and a path to citizenship for the whole family. Trace and Lydia have their own attorney now and asked if she can stay because she married a US citizen and just had a baby (she was still pregnant when this came up). They (she and her brother) are trying to be removed from the family's original lawsuit and formally begin the process of citizenship fast-tracking due to marriage. 

 If they are required to self-deport, Lydia would currently need to go back. Ryker would be allowed to stay, but that doesn't really work well with a newborn. Trace says that if they go back to Germany then he's going with them. I will keep my thoughts on that to myself because I was about to lobby Germany to keep him.

hey if it is looking like Australia is gunna get a duggar other places like germany should take one for the  team and take a Bates lol

[Melissa1977]

It infuriates me that a German family seeks ASYLUM. Oh come on. People around the world seek asylum because their lives are in danger, they are living terrifying situations... and Barbie and Ken Romeike pretend to be one of them? Just because their kids had to go to a clean, safe, full-of-books school... 

The sad part of it is that, after all what is happening, Bates will double down their homeschool commintment and it will be more difficult for the grandkids to go to a school at some point.

[frumperlicious]

The US really is draconian with visas. I have temp residency in Mexico, and had interviews and all but it was a very straightforward process. I brought my mom via family reunification a year later and it was easier still. Yet my Mexican friends- one who has an ex wife and children with an American- it takes 2 years and several hundred dollars to even get an interview for a visa to the US. It’s just total bullshit. 
 

No wonder people come illegally,it’s impossible even with US citizen children and such! 
 

 

[GreenBeans]

5 hours ago, freethemall said:

Yes that gets to the point of what I was trying to say - lawsuits in this are irrelevant and convolute the various applications and appeals which all put the family on the defensive not offensive (though they are applying for affirmative asylum). 

Yeah so basically the US government saw through their BS asylum claim and was like yeah no.

I wish the US had a law like that. I'm curious if other countries in the EU do too and if that was part of their reasoning not to go anywhere in Europe but the US instead.

They could have gone to other European countries. Germany is one of the strictest, but there are quite a few European countries where home schooling is permitted. I’ve heard about other fundamentalists moving to Austria (?) I think, which is just across the border and even has German as official language. They would not even have needed a visa or anything, people are free to move between EU member states and settle down wherever they like. But I guess Austria would still have been too liberal for them, they wanted to be in a place where they wouldn’t be socially isolated, the odd ones out and labeled a cult, which is probably (ISB) at least in part why they went to the US. Their brand of fundamentalism is a lot more common there. 

[ven]

Where the organisation now that is responsible for this mess?  I Iive in belgium, the country next to Germany. We have a trilingual community , dutch, French and German speaking   .  you can homeschool here. They would only have had to move an hour away from where they came from  lol. It is however very very heavy regulated if you don't want to put your child in the regular schooling system. We have public , Catholic,  Jewish and now islamitic schools also, a plethora of free top notch schooling to your choice. I am pretty sure Germany is the same way in that regard. Nobody wants to move to the US,  maybe only those who would want to because of ❤️  , and even then the system/ comfort of life is much much better here. ( sorry guys) . There are however almost no Christian communities in the flavour they are used to now in our neck of the woods. There is however a broad freedom of religion. Flat earthers can actively live out their  believe here if they would want to. 

Trace would very easily find a job in construction over here ( belgium, Germany, Netherland ) but he would at least have to speak a bit German to apply for citizenship. Being married to a German and living in Germany would not necessitate changing his citizenship tho. He can just live and work here when married to an German citizen. Without any problems. There is absolutely no reason to not be able to move back here. Nor was there any reason really to " flee" from Germany lol . I am sure the US government knows that it is all bullshit. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by ven