Racism within the BRF

[noseybutt]

3 minutes ago, treehugger said:

I think it's most likely he has been told by many people to get help, but would rather not.  I feel for him, because mental illness is just horrible to live with, but the options are there for him none-the-less

I'm pretty sure he and Kim and now either divorced or working on it, but I think I read somewhere that that had something to do with it.  

I am trying to choose words carefully so that I don’t diagnose from afar.

Refusal to recognize symptoms is a hallmark of certain psychiatric and neurological conditions. It’s part of the illness. Access to resources is NOT what’s critical here. A man who is homeless and has a serious mental illness may be offered wrap around services by county mental health yet not take it. The is not that he lacks access to resources, the problem is that he sees no reason to take what is offered.

2 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

Yeah it's  not really about how many times you've been told to get help if the inability to see or acknowledge the problems is a symptom of whatever you're suffering from.  Arguing about getting help may sometimes work against the purpose because the person may see it as  a sign of aggression and loses trust.

I don't actually know what Kanye has been diagnosed with, if anything. Just speculating. Sometimes the things he says or does seem so weird

Or, what this poster said.

To tie back to topic of racism and BRF, I think most people here would agree that it’s an issue on some level. I suspect our disagreements are over the seriousness of it and whether it can be fixed at either the individual or institutional level.

 

[treehugger]

Oh, I understand that also.  I do.  

And that actually wasn't what I was going for when I started out, but I should have made myself more clear.  I apologize.  

It's more so that after that, there isn't much else anyone can do.  It's one of the horribly difficult things of mental illness and addictions also.  But me feeling more sorry for him won't make a difference there.  

I apologize for muddying the waters and implying that Kanye should just get his life together.  Obviously that is a monumentally difficult thing for someone with bipolar (which is what Kanye has apparently been diagnosed with), and having a lot of money doesn't mean he will seek or accept help any more than a homeless person with the disorder would. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by treehugger

[noseybutt]

@treehugger I appreciate your clarification.

Some of this conversation around racism feels weird to me because it’s not really a topic either had here or (more precisely) not had sanely.

It is part of the fundie childhood experience, as in many of these kids don’t experience it or don’t have much exposure to the wider world and then, when they grow up, encountering the world view of people of color must be very disorienting.

As much as I have argued for not making comparisons, I do think the BRF is pretty isolated on this one too. 

[treehugger]

@noseybutt I agree with your assessment of racism, especially the correlation between both the BRF and fundie kids.  It's an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of before.  

 

[viii]

2 hours ago, louisa05 said:

As for people wanting Lady Sarah Hussey retired, that has been done. So what else are you asking for? Because clearly, that having happened isn't enough. No one in the thread seems able to acknowledge that it did. 

It’s great that she resigned but if you think that her resigning is enough, it’s not. Directly related to her victim, perhaps, but overall with the BRF institution - it is not enough. It’s a band aid over a gaping wound. They need to do more. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by viii

[noseybutt]

I am going to say something potentially unpopular and provocative.

But if the victim in this situation profits from a Go Fund Me: Who cares. More power to her.

A significant portion of modern BRF wealth was derived from the colonies and racist practices. No matter their personal beliefs, they benefit. And they are not letting go of it.

The victim is not asking for reparations. She is not suing. She is asking for voluntary donations. Nobody is compelled to give.

It gets a big meh from me.

 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

Just stopping by to say that Diana’s inadequate and likely miserable tutorial on her new role was conducted not by her grandmother Lady Fermoy, as depicted in the “Fairytale” episode of The Crown, but by Lady Susan Hussey. (Who is both “Lady Susan” and “Lady Hussey,” by the way.)

[Anna Bolinas]

5 hours ago, louisa05 said:

And the victim has multiple GoFundMes set up. This seems to be working out well for her. 

A GoFundMe??? What a horrid thing to set up! Why, the idea of someone being gifted money they don't deserve! Next you'll be telling me some people get given money out of some kind of government-funded civil list or grant! I mean, really! Imagine!

Sarcasm aside, some of y'all just need to just say with your whole chests that you believe the BRF and its associates cannot do anything wrong, they can only be wronged. There's no way an old rich white lady was racist of her own accord; rather, everything is the result of a pernicious conspiracy against the poor innocent royal lambs. 

[Coconut Flan]

4 hours ago, viii said:

It’s great that she resigned but if you think that her resigning is enough, it’s not. Directly related to her victim, perhaps, but overall with the BRF institution - it is not enough. It’s a band aid over a gaping wound. They need to do more. 

Just me, but I'd retire ALL the hangers on from Elizabeth's era.  Truly slim down the whole mess of them.  That would do wonders for removing what I call the older attitudes.  Maybe not the way to express it, but they grew up and operated in a different type world. People who were in my mother's age group had an entirely different perspective on what was OK to say.  Then make it plain to all the unpaid yet still around royal type appointments that it's contingent on good behavior on all fronts just like paid positions.  

Edited December 2, 2022 by Coconut Flan

[viii]

It’s a good suggestion but really, even Charles should be put out to pasture. He’s of the same generation and I don’t think he can be relied on to bring in a modern monarchy. 

[Coconut Flan]

Charles is in my age range rather than my mother's and is a lot more likely to be aware of the racism in the remarks.  Although I'm obviously not in the BRF so can't guarantee it and some people my age who are less socially aware (er hm, Republican) can certainly imitate people 20 years older.  

[anjulibai]

The BRF (both the working Royals themselves and their courtiers) need intense diversity, equity and inclusion training. My understanding is that they have thus far been exempt from DEI type laws and regulations, and that needs to end. 

[noseybutt]

45 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

The BRF (both the working Royals themselves and their courtiers) need intense diversity, equity and inclusion training. My understanding is that they have thus far been exempt from DEI type laws and regulations, and that needs to end. 

Can you imagine being the trainer asked to provide that service? I mean. 

[prayawaythefundie]

22 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Can you imagine being the trainer asked to provide that service? I mean. 

It’s said they have training staff for speech and how to handle themselves in public (think posture & gestures & faces) nowadays, at least for people marrying in. That‘s pretty personal. You are practically told you are not ok the way you are and need to appear different. You need to get over yourself quite a bit to be successful. I‘d imagine if they can do that, they can be trained in sensitivity regarding diversity and inclusion.

Edited December 2, 2022 by prayawaythefundie

[noseybutt]

14 minutes ago, prayawaythefundie said:

It’s said they have training staff for speech and how to handle themselves in public (think posture & gestures & faces) nowadays, at least for people marrying in. That‘s pretty personal. You are practically told you are not ok the way you are and need to appear different. You need to get over yourself quite a bit to be successful. I‘d imagine if they can do that, they can be trained in sensitivity regarding diversity and inclusion.

For sure.

People talk about 80 year olds like they can’t change or learn yet I personally know several who have figured out smartphones. The generation thing is just an excuse. These people have been trained from a very young age and know good and well the importance of their words.

[just_ordinary]

Of course the institution of the monarchy is benefiting from racism, sexism, elitism, colonialism, inequality and so one. So are the people living in it or working for it. And of course there must be some structural racism going on. Give me one example of an older Western institution that isn’t? The mere fact we can all comfortably chat here about this, is build on the same thing. The Westen World and all its comforts are build on it and it’s only from this place of comfort that we are looking down and decide to help. In fact we and our governments are still perpetuating certain highly problematic schemes right now to maintain our comforts. The second that comfort is threatened 90% of the people take a step back to care of themselves first. And I get it. Maybe you are poor. And that’s why you shop at H&M, target, Aldi…. the girl sewing your coat, the chicken living in horrific circumstances, the farmer getting a joke of money for his produce doesn’t care one bit about your circumstances make you shop cheap so that you can have a second winter coat or an egg or flour. The children working in appalling circumstances, sorting our trash that has been transported around the world don’t care if we found it too hard/stressful/expensive to use porcelain plates instead of the paper plates they now sort through. I digress though. Denying that the institution has benefited and still has structural problems is crazy. Now, we wouldn’t abolish democracy, medicine or universities because they have same problems but we trust that changing the people will help to change the institution. I am pretty sure the RF (apart from the obligatory one or two noses) is just as appalled by racism, doesn’t want to be racist but falls into the same missteps and benefits from structural racism just as much as we. 

My opinion is this:

Ms. Fulani set up a worthwhile charity that tackles an important issue in a certain subgroup because that’s what she experienced growing up. She is very open about this, as this is public information. Her Caribbean background was a big motivator. It seems she has looked but found no records about her African heritage.

People don’t chat by chance to you at those events. They have profiles and everyone prepares for a certain group of people they work through so that afterwards everyone feels they had been noticed and appreciated.
Mrs. Hussey used a pretty common conversation starter and probably thought Fulani would talk about her Caribbean heritage and the conversation would go to her motivation and the charity from there. Another two sentences about how it is going and what they plan to do in the future. Next. 
The second Fulani answered Hackney, SH should have been able to switch to a different script and jump to her charity. 
I wonder if Ms. Fulani would have answered differently if SH hadn’t invaded her personal space in such a rude manner first. That was definitely the first strike. Pushing this topic for minutes was racist and rude and unprofessional. And she showed an inflexibility in conversation management that doesn’t agree with her job. Honorary or paid. Even without the racism,  BP should have considered putting her into retirement.

I do have a problem with the following. 
I think Ms. Fulani should have written an official complaint mail before putting it out there. This could have happened right after another, but I think it’s important to bring the issue to the right address - especially if you expect an apology and it’s questionable if anyone even knows you were treated badly. I doubt SH sat down afterwards and said- oh and there was this black woman that wouldn’t tell me where she really comes from. So how exactly would BP know that they should apologise. Ms. Fulani was not in any danger so it’s not as if addressing the aggressor in this incident (via BP not SH in the moment) would have hurt her. 
Those Go Fund Me don’t bother me. What does bother me is that Ms Fulani seems to have been caught in inaccuracies which will probably hurt her reputation and therefore maybe even the charity in the long term. That’s unfortunate.

Charles needs to have a big sweep or stop functions where such situations could arise. The BRF would actually benefit from a bit of a media time out. Public indifference is their biggest friend. They could lay back, post a lovely picture for Christmas and let the press dissect H&M. I think those two already pushed headlines about racism way down again. They really are the BRF biggest asset in that way.

[viii]

3 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

Charles needs to have a big sweep or stop functions where such situations could arise. The BRF would actually benefit from a bit of a media time out. Public indifference is their biggest friend. They could lay back, post a lovely picture for Christmas and let the press dissect H&M. I think those two already pushed headlines about racism way down again. They really are the BRF biggest asset in that way.

Ah, yes. The BRF screwing up and then taking a step back and throwing H&M to the wolves as a distraction tactic. You’re right. They do have plenty of experience doing that. 

[just_ordinary]

1 hour ago, viii said:

Ah, yes. The BRF screwing up and then taking a step back and throwing H&M to the wolves as a distraction tactic. You’re right. They do have plenty of experience doing that. 

That’s not what I am saying? Where did I suggest the RF should take any action against H&M in that regard? I suggested taking a step back. If H&M manage to create negative publicity that’s on them at this point. The fact that this might benefit the RF is a byproduct that is not in the hands of the RF. But that’s also don’t see what they should do instead? That should step back no matter what happens to H&M. But at this point whenever H&M take the spotlight they manage a smaller or bigger screw up.

Edited December 2, 2022 by just_ordinary

[Coconut Flan]

I have found that equating learning a phone and changing attitudes in 80 year olds and up is not a good working theory.  Yes, many older people can learn new tasks and surprisingly well.  Changing their attitudes and thus their performance in talking to people is a harder hill to climb.  As someone getting closer to that age, it concerns me about how I can work with that myself.  A resistance to changing with the times can set in.  

[AmazonGrace]

If there are royal hangers-on who are so set in their ways, for whichever reason, that they can't be trusted not to offend certain groups of people, maybe somebody who deals out the invites should get a better handle on which functions they are safe to attend. If it's someone who knows too many secrets to be excluded entirely  I'm sure they could be made to feel important posing for photos at events with pre-arranged seating and music too loud for conversations to be overheard.

I think it would be a good idea to cut some of these people involved in the pageantry altogether. Feodalism should be in the rearview mirror and I don't really get hereditary titles in this day and age.  Just because some dude killed people the king didn't like in the 1500s, or whatever, why does it mean their descendants need any special status today.

but the idea of hereditary peers still existing sort of makes sense with the racist thinking that some people are better than others because of who their ancestors are

[hoipolloi]

59 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

As someone getting closer to that age, it concerns me about how I can work with that myself.  A resistance to changing with the times can set in.  

Yes. More benignly expressed in my case as "Iʻm too old for that."

Still, olds should not get a pass on racist behavior & speech. They need to learn or perhaps re-learn that. Unfortunately, the era of 45 allowed many to remove their filters. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by hoipolloi
Clarity

[viii]

9 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

If there are royal hangers-on who are so set in their ways, for whichever reason, that they can't be trusted not to offend certain groups of people, maybe somebody who deals out the invites should get a better handle on which functions they are safe to attend. If it's someone who knows too many secrets to be excluded entirely  I'm sure they could be made to feel important posing for photos at events with pre-arranged seating and music too loud for conversations to be overheard.

This is far too accommodating, imo. If you cannot be trusted to not say racist things, then you can stay the fuck home. 

[AmazonGrace]

At least Charles doesn't get to use the excuse of old age, imo.  (Not saying that he does.) Should he be too old to learn new things or change his ways or adjust his attitude when required he is surely too old to be a reigning monarch.

2 minutes ago, viii said:

This is far too accommodating, imo. If you cannot be trusted to not say racist things, then you can stay the fuck home. 

Yeah sure... I wonder how many buddies they'd have left.

Unless it's a royal putting their foot down I am not counting on any lackey  having the guts to tell people this unless there is some sort of public outcry. Nobody told Andrew to stay the fuck home if he can't be trusted not to molest anyone, until there was too much bad press.

[viii]

11 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

Yeah sure... I wonder how many buddies they'd have left.

My guess is not a lot. 

[AmazonGrace]

2 minutes ago, viii said:

My guess is not a lot. 

It would save a fortune on catering.