Racism within the BRF

[viii]

Oof. Not a good look, Chucky. 

[Jackie3]

3 hours ago, viii said:

Oof. Not a good look, Chucky. 

I'm beginning to think it's not just Lady Hussey. She was just the fall guy.

[viii]

2 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

I'm beginning to think it's not just Lady Hussey. She was just the fall guy.

Oh, it's definitely not just Lady Hussey. I'm assuming she even said such things because a) she has said plenty of things like it before and b) she felt very comfortable in that environment saying things. Anyone who believes that Lady Hussey was a one-off is very naïve. The whole older generation of the BRF seem to have an extremely outdated point of view and would do better off with retirement. 

[treehugger]

I don't think any of us were naive enough to think it was just Lady Hussey. That's terribly disingenuous.  It isn't just the BRF that is horribly racist. I know several people from wealthy, old, British families here in Montreal, who are just so casually racist all the time I don't even think they realize it.  But I am always horrified at how easily their racism falls out.  It is so built into who they are they don't even have the ability to look at what they say objectively and think "hey, maybe that's really inappropriate and I shouldn't say that."  I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's how it is all the time in the BRF.  I would hope the younger generations are more aware, but I do believe the older ones are probably all very racist without even realizing it or thinking they are.  

Edited December 13, 2022 by treehugger

[Jackie3]

24 minutes ago, treehugger said:

I don't think any of us were naive enough to think it was just Lady Hussey. That's terribly disingenuous.  It isn't just the BRF that is horribly racist. I know several people from wealthy, old, British families here in Montreal, who are just so casually racist all the time I don't even think they realize it.  But I am always horrified at how easily their racism falls out.  It is so built into who they are they don't even have the ability to look at what they say objectively and think "hey, maybe that's really inappropriate and I shouldn't say that."  I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's how it is all the time in the BRF.  I would hope the younger generations are more aware, but I do believe the older ones are probably all very racist without even realizing it or thinking they are.  

The younger ones, like Wills, have been raised by the older generation and absorbed their views. They also spent their lives surrounded by white people -- servants, teachers, peers, classmates--and probably have very little idea what modern Britain looks like. Even Harry engaged in ugly behavior at one time. He seems to be the only one who took a step back and tried to change.

[noseybutt]

Why is it assumed the older generation is this way and not the younger? Is it because of language/specific words used? Or an assumption that the younger generations have interacted more broadly? Or?

 I am posing this as a serious non-rhetorical question. 

I am in the US and since 2016 or so I have encountered enough younger and middle aged people with surprisingly racist rhetoric that I no longer think of this as generational. But we all have our own unique experiences…

[viii]

I do think that anyone can be racist, but in my own personal experiences, I have found that there's two different cases.

I find that the older generation is guilty of accidental racism - thoughts and beliefs that they have grown up with all their lives and don't realize that those things are no longer socially acceptable. When my mom grew up, black licorice babies were called.... well, I'm sure you can imagine what they were called. Things were said without thought. When I speak with an older person and inform them that what they've said is insensitive/offensive, most of the time they are surprised and apologetic. Very few of them double down. 

The younger generation in my personal experience is very intentional, vicious racism. They are FULLY aware that what they are saying goes against what is socially acceptable, and they find a perverse glee in saying it anyway. 

[treehugger]

@viii I was going to write the exact same post!  Only you wrote it much better.  That is my experience as well.  

[Loveday]

21 hours ago, SoSoNosy said:

But Jackie3 is all powerful here at FreeJinger.  I have tried twice, she shows in my profile as "ignored", and here she still is.  So I am apparently destined to argue with  her until Beansie takes over the world.

 

I'm sometimes tempted to put her on Ignore, but it's gotten to the point where she's really entertaining. As well, when I'm irritated with something or someone in real life, it's cathartic to come into the royalty threads and hit the 'F you' or downvote button on some of her posts. They deserve it, and I get it out of my system without saying it aloud to someone and then regretting it! 😆

[Jackie3]

1 hour ago, viii said:

I find that the older generation is guilty of accidental racism - thoughts and beliefs that they have grown up with all their lives and don't realize that those things are no longer socially acceptable. When my mom grew up, black licorice babies were called.... well, I'm sure you can imagine what they were called.

 

If they didn't use the term with a nonwhite person, then they knew it was racist.

 

 

 

[SoSoNosy]

If you are talking about the candy, I'm sure they used it with everybody.  I vaguely remember them.

 

[Jackie3]

1 minute ago, SoSoNosy said:

If you are talking about the candy, I'm sure they used it with everybody.  I vaguely remember them.

 

Wow, that's rude. You'd offer a Black person a "----baby" candy?

Even in the 1930's that word was considered repugnant.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Jackie3

[SoSoNosy]

I would't, no.  But a couple of generations before me would, I am pretty sure.  Yes, it was rude and ugly.  

How can you have small children if you were around in the 30's?

ETA:

 This is a link to an article from the 70's (in the UK, I think)

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/62430592.pdf

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by SoSoNosy

[noseybutt]

I lived as a child for a few years in the suburban south in the 1970s and doorbell ditching was known in the neighborhood as “—— knocking.” 

[Jackie3]

6 hours ago, SoSoNosy said:

I would't, no.  But a couple of generations before me would, I am pretty sure.  Yes, it was rude and ugly.  

How can you have small children if you were around in the 30's?

ETA:

 This is a link to an article from the 70's (in the UK, I think)

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/62430592.pdf

 

My goodness. I wasn't around in the 1930s nor do I have small children. My own mother was born in the 30's and would never have used that term. People back then knew what racism was.

I read the article and I'm not sure what it proves or doesn't prove. One person using that ugly term in the 1970's meant that everyone thought it was a-ok?

Edited December 14, 2022 by Jackie3

[viii]

But it wasn’t just one person. My mother grew up in the 70’s and that was a super common word. Perhaps not directed at people directly, but certainly labeled for candy. 

[noseybutt]

2 hours ago, viii said:

But it wasn’t just one person. My mother grew up in the 70’s and that was a super common word. Perhaps not directed at people directly, but certainly labeled for candy. 

My experience—-It was common in parts of the US (and I would guess Canada too) but not universally accepted. My parents would have punished had they heard us use it. Pretty sure teachers would not have allowed its use. But among mostly white neighbor and school kids in suburban south—yes, common. Among some of my relatives who were adults in the 1970s, also common. But also care in who they used the term in front of. My relatives would not use it in front of someone black or biracial and also not in front of white people who vocally objected. 

Also. My parents were horrified by the word and a lot of other words but had other ideas and jokes that were quite racist. They would be deeply offended if anyone called them racist—-the racist people were the OTHER relatives.

I find it more surprising when white people of my age can’t remember anything racist about their childhoods. It varies widely by community and family culture.

As an aside, it’s probably easier for many people my age to recall lots of homophobic stories from childhood and beyond.
 

 

[viii]

35 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

My relatives would not use it in front of someone black or biracial and also not in front of white people who vocally objected. 

Yes, I agree with this. I think it’s also important to note that when my mom was growing up, there was perhaps one black family in the community. She grew up in a small town that was 99% white. 

[Jackie3]

3 hours ago, viii said:

But it wasn’t just one person. My mother grew up in the 70’s and that was a super common word. Perhaps not directed at people directly, but certainly labeled for candy. 

It’s interesting  to hear you defend the use of that word. Strange hill to die on. 

I was alive and well in the 70’s. Only racists would use that word. Never once heard it on tv, radio, among friends. It depends on where you come from, I guess. 

Actually, I heard it from one man. But he was an abuser and a criminal. 

[Alisamer]

2 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

It’s interesting  to hear you defend the use of that word. Strange hill to die on. 

I was alive and well in the 70’s. Only racists would use that word. Never once heard it on tv, radio, among friends. It depends on where you come from, I guess. 

Actually, I heard it from one man. But he was an abuser and a criminal. 

I don't think anyone is defending the use of the word, just saying that yes, it very much depends where you come from. If you rarely heard it in the 70's that's wonderful, but it's not reality for all people in all areas. 

I am from the rural southern US. There are people around here who still use that word regularly now. They are generally careful about who they use it in front of, but they do still say it. They are also generally older people, the younger generations rarely use it, and the younger ones that do are the more radicalized racist ones. In the 70s and 80s? Much more common. 

And yeah, many of the people who said it were racists, I agree. But many of them, particularly in the 70's, wouldn't have thought of themselves as "racist". They were just using the term their parents used and their grandparents used without thought. Someone who grew up in a 99% white area attending segregated schools wouldn't necessarily have put together the fact that that word is hurtful if they'd heard it used as just a descriptor their entire life. I've had to have the "I know your father used that word, but it is not an OK word to use ever" talk with at least one older family member within the past decade. 

[viii]

16 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

It’s interesting  to hear you defend the use of that word. Strange hill to die on. 

I love that you're accusing me, the most logical Meghan defender on this board, as racist. You are (literally) always good for a laugh. 

[catlady]

9 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

My goodness. I wasn't around in the 1930s nor do I have small children. 

 

you filthy fucking liar.

 

[prayawaythefundie]

59 minutes ago, catlady said:

you filthy fucking liar.

 

To be fair, I think that referred to Charles and Anne when they were little. As in being in Elizabeth‘s and Philip‘s shoes.

You know @Jackie3 does not have to be in any situation herself to absolutely know how others should do things.

[Coconut Flan]

Just a reminder that this is the BRF racism thread and if people want to rehash the history of racism of the world, there are more appropriate spots.  :removing mod hat:

[QuiverFullofBooks]

I once was alone in a London park. An older British gentleman sat with me on a bench. He told me that he doesn’t like London much these days because there are so many foreigners. I thought at first that he might mean me, since I’m American, but then I realized that he probably meant nonwhite people. And the French, of course.