Racism within the BRF

[Jackie3]

9 hours ago, noseybutt said:

There was a witness who appears to have corroborated the exchange. Given Lady Hussey was the one asking questions, it seems highly unlikely that she was baited.

Further, the emphasis on her age seems strange to me because it seems to be offered up as some sort of mitigating factor? 

I have relatives in that age range (and younger) who say racist things and act in racist ways. They are not terrible people in many aspects of their lives and I love them dearly. But glossing over their bad behavior does not help an individual (or family or community) heal the legacy.

 

 

I am sure Lady Hussey was doing the same sort of thing at age 35 and 55. People don't just suddenly become racist at 83. Her behavior was simply tolerated by the Palace, until this incident with witnesses. Members of my own family have experienced the same behavior, and believe me, it's a shock, it's painful and embarrassing. It's not something you encourage.

[Coconut Flan]

14 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

This is a bit ageist., dont' you think? There are 83-year olds who are still capable of doing a good job. Besides, I don't think this woman was racist because she is 83. I suspect she said the same thing when she was in her 40's or 50's.

So be clear you want to support an 83 year old racist staying on the job or you think she should retire?  Pick a side otherwise you're doing your usual trolling.  

[viii]

18 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Is there such a thing as monarchists who acknowledge the toxicity and racism? Or is that simply not possible?

 I tend to think that the BRF as an institution can never be not-racist. The people though are quite capable of growing and learning (even at 83).

Yes! I am one of them. I have always been a big fan of the BRF, but over the years, I have grown and learned, which has shifted my views. I agree with you that the BRF is an institution that will never not be racist. Their roots are too steeped in colonialism and I don't think they'll ever be able to bring the monarchy forward far enough to be relevant without giving up everything they are/stand for. I don't see them doing it. I do think the monarchy does some good, but overall, I think they are far more problematic than what they are worth. 

[noseybutt]

14 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

So be clear you want to support an 83 year old racist staying on the job or you think she should retire?  Pick a side otherwise you're doing your usual trolling.  

If I were in HR I think I would parse it like this:

Any person who displays racist behavior must leave.

If they are past retirement age, then that leaving takes the form of retirement.

If they are younger, then the leaving will probably be firing.

IOW, the person leaves because of the racist behavior. Age is one of the factors that determines how they leave.

 

[hoipolloi]

2 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I think Meghan Markle is a liar and manipulator and I think Harry is a spoiled and entitled infant. I also think the woman’s story is very much what happened. Both things can be true.

I also think that Meghan has been subjected to unrelenting racism in the British press from the get-go -- from its articles to its op-ed writers (like the vile Piers Morgan) to the cess pools of reader comments. It is pretty obvious and it has never let up. ALL of these things can be true, and I have said this here before. 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by hoipolloi
Fixed typo

[noseybutt]

14 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

I also think that Meghan has been subjected to unrelenting racism in the British press from the get-go -- from its articles to its op-ed writers (like the vile Piers Morgan) to the cess pools of reader comments. It is pretty obvious and it has never let up. ALL of these things can be true, and I have said this here before. 

 

I can also see—however naive this may be—that a passive response from the BRF around the press issue may have felt like a betrayal to Meghan even though that was never the BRFs intent. It’s just their way of doing business.

[AmazonGrace]

Re: the photo at https://www.insider.com/queen-lady-in-waiting-doesnt-get-paid-salary-2021-10

what's with the children in not-age-appropriate clothing? at least a couple of them look very uncomfortable, why do these people drag kids to pose uncomfortably at an extremely adult political event? (2004 state opening of the parliament)

Edited December 1, 2022 by AmazonGrace

[tabitha2]

This may seem harsh but it’s true: the Royal family need the press and the (mainstream non gutter) press need the BRF and it is in each others best interest to stay at least civil if not great friends. It’s been this way for well over 200 years now.  A newly married in Third in lines wife is and was not important enough to start an un winnable brawl over. 
 

[viii]

I don't think the press needs the BRF but I do agree that the BRF needs the press and the BRF did not consider Meghan worth jeopardizing that relationship over. 

[noseybutt]

6 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

This may seem harsh but it’s true: the Royal family need the press and the (mainstream non gutter) press need the BRF and it is in each others best interest to stay at least civil if not great friends. It’s been this way for well over 200 years now.  A newly married in Third in lines wife is and was not important enough to start an un winnable brawl over. 
 

And that is extremely disturbed thinking and why I am not a monarchist.

The fact that they prioritize who is worth defending versus which values are worth defending is mind boggling.

 

[Coconut Flan]

22 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

what's with the children in not-age-appropriate clothing? at least a couple of them look very uncomfortable, why do these people drag kids to pose uncomfortably at an extremely adult political event? (2004 state opening of the parliament)

There we go with things about the monarchy that I believe should have been changed decades ago if not longer.  i have mixed feelings that while I will watch and even enjoy some of the pageantry, I deplore the waste and antiquatedness of so much of it at the same time.  

i watched a lot of the US coverage of the Queens' funeral all while going this should be simpler and not wasting SO many millions of pounds when people are suffering and such horrible winter conditions are being predicted.  

[prayawaythefundie]

2 hours ago, noseybutt said:

Is there such a thing as monarchists who acknowledge the toxicity and racism?

Yes, there is. I think there a people who are pro monarchy but want it to change. Let‘s say they are moderate monarchists. 😄

[treehugger]

Not a monarchist and couldn't give a crap about the institution, but I've made a similar post in this board before, and I will make it again.  There is absolutely no comparison at all between H&M and Jill and Derrick, or any other fundie kids we follow, at all. Like, if you can't see the difference I can't help you.  One couple has had more privileges and opportunities than any one of us here on this board could even dream of, including wealth, education, connections, power, etc..., and Jill grew up eating in the bathroom and denied even a proper education.  I am happy for Harry and Meghan that they left a toxic situation, but they did that with money, and opportunities, and with a proper education, and the ability to seek help for both mental and physical health.  Jill had none of those things.  Everyone has difficulties in life, few have the privileges afforded H&M.  

The BRF is colonialist and racist as fuck, and there is so much wrong with the institution simply existing.  And Harry and Meghan are grown adults who make their own choices, and if those choices have consequences, that is something they can deal with like any other adult in life.  I am not here to cheer Harry and Meghan on, they have all the resources they need to really succeed in life.  Harry was born with them, and Meghan has worked hard at it as well as had the connections and eduction, and neither of them is anywhere nearer my feel-sorry-for list than any other person of massive privilege.  Our fundie kids though, the ones with poor education and impoverished childhoods, I will cheer them on to a better life for the rest of my days.  

Edited December 1, 2022 by treehugger

[louisa05]

2 hours ago, noseybutt said:

William is a working royal though while Harry is not.

Of the many structural problems with the BRF, the most basic is the problem of royalty everywhere: the personal and the professional cannot be separated.

Harry had plenty of faults but he no longer needs to answer for the bad behavior of his relatives in the way that the working royals do. Because he no longer officially represents them or the institution.

Further, hyperbole along the lines that people want this elderly woman “drawn and quartered” doesn’t help. Nobody wants the death penalty. More like retirement. A very comfortable one.

As someone said, godparent for royals is a very symbolic thing. And how can it be William's responsibility for his (and she's one of six) but not Harry's responsibility for his? If you're a working royal, you must police the behavior of every single one of your godparents (who you did not choose, btw) or at least take personal responsibility? And at what age does that responsibility begin?  Really, how can anyone be held responsible for another adult's actions? 

As for people wanting Lady Sarah Hussey retired, that has been done. So what else are you asking for? Because clearly, that having happened isn't enough. No one in the thread seems able to acknowledge that it did. 

And the victim has multiple GoFundMes set up. This seems to be working out well for her. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by louisa05

[noseybutt]

2 minutes ago, treehugger said:

Not a monarchist and couldn't give a crap about the institution, but I've made a similar post in this board before, and I will make it again.  There is absolutely no comparison at all between H&M and Jill and Derrick, or any other fundie kids we follow, at all. Like, if you can't see the difference I can't help you.  One couple has had more privileges and opportunities than any one of us here on this board could even dream of, including wealth, education, connections, power, etc..., and Jill grew up eating in the bathroom and denied even a proper education.  I am happy for Harry and Meghan that they left a toxic situation, but they did that with money, and opportunities, and with a proper education, and the ability to seek help for both mental and physical health.  Jill had none of those things.  Everyone have difficulties in life, few have the privileges afforded H&M.  

The BRF is colonialist and racist as fuck, and there is so much wrong with the institution simply existing.  And Harry and Meghan are grown adults who make their own choices, and if those choices have consequences, that is something they can deal with like any other adult in life.  I am not here to cheer Harry and Meghan on, they have all the resources they need to really succeed in life.  Harry was born with them, and Meghan has worked hard at it as well as had the connections and eduction, and neither of them is anywhere nearer my feel-sorry-for list than any other person of massive privilege.  Our fundie kids though, the ones with poor education and impoverished childhoods, I will cheer them on to a better life for the rest of my days.  

Yes, there is the privilege of wealth. No question.

But that doesn’t change the fact that BRF children are raised within circumstances that are not normal and, in some instances, are psychologically twisted.

I also don’t think that wealth and power cancel out the experience of being black. It can change that experience but never seems to remove it altogether. 

As a culture we don’t have clear language to talk about dysfunctional childhood attachment and how that messes with people in adulthood. Well, we do have some language but those kinds of scars are typically minimized in comparison to, say, poverty. 

It’s not a zero sum game.

 

[treehugger]

I understand that, I do. It’s just, as a comparative, I would look at Harry and Meghan similarly to Kim and Kanye, instead of Derrick and Jill, for example, or hell, William and Kate then.  
 

The racism is absolutely wrong, don’t misunderstand me.

And they don’t just have the privilege of wealth, they also have the privilege of eduction (lots of it), connections, experience, even just knowing there’s a different world out there.  That, and they are both in their 40’s at least.  They aren’t young adults trying to find themselves anymore. Anna Duggar doesn’t get that pass for her poor choices and behaviour, neither should Harry. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by treehugger

[noseybutt]

Just now, treehugger said:

I understand that, I do. It’s just, as a comparative, I would look at Harry and Meghan similarly to Kim and Kanye, instead of Derrick and Jill, for example, or hell, William and Kate then.  
 

The racism is absolutely wrong, don’t misunderstand me.  That was not ok. 

Oof. 

That is not the comparison I would make at all.

[treehugger]

Are we talking the childhood trauma response or the racism part?
 

Because it does make a difference, William and Harry both experienced the very public trauma of losing their mother.  I understand Harry seems to be a deeply traumatized person for other reasons as well, but childhood trauma is not unique to them, neither is racism unique to Meghan, unfortunately.  
These are things that are too common in all of society. It still doesn’t make them comparable to the fundie kids, in my mind. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by treehugger

[noseybutt]

But this is exactly why I am scratching my head. Because poverty and trauma and sexual abuse are not unique to fundie kids either.

Edited December 1, 2022 by noseybutt

[treehugger]

No, it isn't. You are right.  

But, it is a lot easier to seek and get help when you have resources, education, connections and wealth.  The reason I made the comparison with Kim and Kanye, is because they also are wealthy people who have struggles with a warped family and mental health.  My level of sympathy for Harry is about as strong as my level of sympathy for Kanye.  They are both clearly struggling, and I feel bad/sorry for them, but they can get help.  I think Kim may understand a thing or two about racism as well.  But, they have the resources and the knowledge to get the help they need if they want it.  The Rod kids for example really don't.  Poverty makes everything so much harder. Everyone has crap to deal with in life, but poverty makes it so much worse, and so much more prevalent.  To deny that is disingenuous, and to push the comparison is wildly tone-deaf.  

Edited December 1, 2022 by treehugger

[AmazonGrace]

Quote

My level of sympathy for Harry is about as strong as my level of sympathy for Kanye.  They are both clearly struggling, and I feel bad/sorry for them, but they can get help.

I have not followed the Kanye saga other than the headlines one can't avoid but sometimes he strikes me as a person who can't get help because he doesn't know he needs it.

[treehugger]

4 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

I have not followed the Kanye saga other than the headlines one can't avoid but sometimes he strikes me as a person who can't get help because he doesn't know he needs it.

I think it's most likely he has been told by many people to get help, but would rather not.  I feel for him, because mental illness is just horrible to live with, but the options are there for him none-the-less

I'm pretty sure he and Kim and now either divorced or working on it, but I think I read somewhere that that had something to do with it.  (then again don't quote me on this because I can't find it now and I may have read it on some tabloid trash).  

Edited December 1, 2022 by treehugger

[noseybutt]

Just now, treehugger said:

No, it isn't. You are right.  

But, it is a lot easier to seek and get help when you have resources, education, connections and wealth.  The reason I made the comparison with Kim and Kanye, is because they also are wealthy people who have struggles with a warped family and mental health.  My level of sympathy for Harry is about as strong as my level of sympathy for Kanye.  They are both clearly struggling, and I feel bad/sorry for them, but they can get help.  I think Kim may understand a thing or two about racism as well.  But, they have the resources to get the help they need if they want it.  The Rod kids for example really don't.  Poverty makes everything so much harder. Everyone has crap to deal with in life, but poverty makes it so much worse, and so much more prevalent.  To deny that is disingenuous, and the push the comparison is wildly tone-deaf.  

 

I find the fundie families generally more interesting than the BRF because their struggles are at least a thousand times more relatable. For example, Jill and Derrick appear to have gotten some money, but it was a fairly modest amount and earned through work. That is relatable. Whatever money Harry received is completely unrelatable. It’s just not something that would happen in my lifetime.

So set aside the relatable piece.

Fundie children are interesting because they are raised with beliefs that are outside the cultural norm and thus to survive outside the cult they have to psychologically restructure in pretty extreme ways. Whatever childhood trauma they experience can make that process more challenging. And, yes, poverty is a big one.

But the reality it that most (not all) do not deal with certain kinds of challenges. For example, most are white and have no first-hand experience with racism. Most of the ones in the public eye do not have parents struggling with alcohol or drug addiction. Most are not dealing with peer group bullying outside the family because there is no peer group. Most have living parents.

I am not saying that makes their lives objectively easier. It does make their path different.

My impression is that Harry has had a pretty twisted path. We know for certain that he never dealt with poverty. But there are lots of things he has dealt with. It’s all completely unrelatable to me but still valid in terms of the human experience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Coconut Flan]

If we want to delve into Harry's psyche, we have a thread for that. 

[AmazonGrace]

Yeah it's  not really about how many times you've been told to get help if the inability to see or acknowledge the problems is a symptom of whatever you're suffering from.  Arguing about getting help may sometimes work against the purpose because the person may see it as  a sign of aggression and loses trust.

I don't actually know what Kanye has been diagnosed with, if anything. Just speculating. Sometimes the things he says or does seem so weird