[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 30: LaCounting On to His Trial Date

[NancyDrewFan1989]

22 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

However, I don’t think JB's likely to do anything of the sort.  He is probably hoping some avenging angel with a fiery sword will best up Josh and make him godly.  And Anna is not going to divorce Josh.

JB has been hoping and praying for that for almost twenty years now. Hasn't happened yet. 

[Jencendiary]

1 hour ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

Jill did graduate from midwife school and has her certificate. 

Jill did not attend any accredited medical training. She apprenticed with another lay midwife with no medical credentialing. (And who, if I remember correctly, was connected to the death of a mother or child she was delivering for being pig fucking ignorant.)

[neuroticcat]

2 hours ago, purple_summer said:

Carmen is special. He died recently and the reaction from exvangelicals (of the millennial variety) was a mix of nostalgia and second hand embarrassment. This isn’t even a “greatest hit”? 

“Satan, bite the dust” is always good for a laugh. 

Oh man, my elementary BFF and I knew all the words to Carmen’s Witch’s Invitation. 

[Jencendiary]

I was forced to see Carman as a "youth." It was as dumb as you might imagine. I brought a book, and got in trouble for reading instead of participating. 

[NancyDrewFan1989]

1 minute ago, Jencendiary said:

Jill did not attend any accredited medical training. She apprenticed with another lay midwife with no medical credentialing. (And who, if I remember correctly, was connected to the death of a mother or child she was delivering for being pig fucking ignorant.)

I didn't know that about the death of the minor. I know she attended some form of midwifery school that had training and got some form of accreditation. I thought it was one of those Christian programs that had some form of approved medical accreditation. 

[Jencendiary]

2 minutes ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

I didn't know that about the death of the minor. I know she attended some form of midwifery school that had training and got some form of accreditation. I thought it was one of those Christian programs that had some form of approved medical accreditation. 

Arkansas, being the place they'd insert the nozzle if America was getting an enema, allows morons to hang out a shingle and call themselves certified professional midwifes with a certain amount of apprenticeship hours under another moron who thinks it is right and proper to deliver babies with absolutely no medical training.

Apparently, during her apprenticeship, Jill was on site when Vanessa Giron - her mentor - refused to call 911 after the mother delivering begged for her to call real help. The child was subsequently delivered with cerebral palsy, and there was a lawsuit because the mother thought it would have been preventable with proper intervention.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Jencendiary
Extra information

[neuroticcat]

1 hour ago, baldricks_turnip said:

This is kind of where I am falling as well. I know (and know of) plenty of people who found it hard to see through their love and loyalty for their partner is see the scum within. And those were people who did not grow up in an oppressive culture that teaches women to obey and basically worship their husbands and that they will be worthless without them now that they are not virgins.

Agree. Betrayal trauma is real. Cheaters are abusive and usually lie really effectively. I highly doubt she knew what he was looking at and how. I’d guess at most she maybe caught him once or twice or learned that he’d  “fallen”back into “regular” porn a time or two over the past few years. 
 

Independent women who weren’t raised in a cult have a hard time negotiating this kind of betrayal. Unless Anna somehow found online support, she was probably totally in the dark and following Gothard repellent spiritual blessing for victims teaching. 
 

But now she knows. The do hope she gets some real counseling and support. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by neuroticcat

[Candycane36]

Anna has trauma bonded with Josh. He has been lying to her for years, visiting strip clubs, and had at least 11 known affairs with Ashley Madison alone. I wouldn't be surprised if there were many more victims.  Josh is sneaky, and if he wanted to abuse his children, he absolutely would be able to do it under Anna's nose. I think Anna is afraid to have her kid's examined because she is afraid that they may find something, and Anna deep down knows he may be capable of it. She doesn't want to face the truth.  I'm  sure that Josh had did terrible things to Anna as well. However, Anna has the choice to leave, and she is choosing to stand by Josh. I think this decision will have major consequences for her and her children  years down the road.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Candycane36

[Jencendiary]

@Antimony - Arkansas' system of midwifery is a contributing factor to why we have poorer maternal outcomes than states with real regulations. 

[feministxtian]

Jill took advantage of what was available to her at the time. We'll see what happens now that Derrick has graduated from law school. I have a feeling there might be one more baby...try for a girl...but once Sam starts school and there's no more babies, I'm willing to say that she may end up at a CC to start an LPN/RN program. I don't think she's going to just sit on her duff. Its still too early to tell but if I were a betting person, my money is on Jill and Derrick becoming a 2 career couple within the next 5 years or so. I truly believe they're the ones who are going to end up the most "normal" of the whole bunch. 

We also don't know who else may be trying to break the strings and get out from under JBoob...

[SnarkyLawyer]

10 hours ago, FunFunFundie said:

I can't speak to the Duggars specifically but at least with the Andersons (and I think the Duggars maybe, since they are anti-LGBTQ), this isn't quite accurate. They think everything is forgiveable EXCEPT being a reprobate, because if you are a reprobate, that means you hate God and you were never truly saved. So for some who believe in faith but not works:

Once saved always saved
But you can't lie about being saved when you are being saved or you aren't saved
You are lying about being saved if you are a) gay, or b) a child molester
Some other things count as being a reprobate like, well, as far as I can tell, not worshipping Steven Anderson

This is why they go around "reprobating" other people and saying things like "were you ever EVEN SAVED???" as the ultimate insult.

For Josh, I assume they aren't worried about his soul because that would be an admission of guilt, and an admission of guilt is not just saying that he's a reprobate but also that because "ye shall know them by their fruit" reflects badly upon themselves. 

(I could be very wrong about the specifics about their doctrine. I'm better versed in the Andersons and the NIFB).

Honestly, this is one of the better explanations I've ever heard.

[OrchidBlossom]

13 hours ago, AuntK said:

This may have already been posted, if so, I apologize, but I just read on Twitter that the Arkansas judge who released Josh on his OWN RECOGNIZANCE just got appointed to her position on APRIL 29! Before that, she worked as an attorney in a firm representing truckers. 

Our judicial system sucks. The elevation of unqualified persons to the bench by political appointment based upon friends, family and money has got to stop. I don't care if it's always been this way, maybe we should consider ELECTING federal magistrates and judges.

I just want to concur with everyone saying we shouldn't elect our judges. There is no perfect system for this (and I don't agree with lifetime appointments) but elected judges is a terrible idea. I'm also not sure how it would prevent a newly appointed (or in your scenario elected) judge from hearing a matter? I don't understand why you're frustrated with her being a new appointment, she was practicing law beforehand. She understands the law and how courtrooms work. If it was an elected position, she could just as easily have had the same start date. Like if there was a special election for some reason. Time spent on the bench is *not* an indicator of quality of judging, trust me.

Also, in 8 states, judges are allowed be elected without an actual law degree. Personally I am fond of the method in MA. The judges are appointed by the Governor, but must be approved by the Executive Council, who also have input in the selection process. By executive order, only properly barred attorneys who reside in MA can be put forward for consideration. The Massachusetts Bar Association collaborates with local bar associations and also offers opinions on who should be considered and on the candidates put forward. Although it is a "lifetime" appointment, there is a mandatory retirement at age 70 and a number of failsafes for judges to be removed in case of any misconduct. The Governor with the approval of the Council can also advance the retirement of a judge if there is no misconduct, but some other circumstance causes them to become ineligible to continue as a judge (mental or physical disability, injury, and other similar reasons).

Source: law school and practicing as an attorney

[Jencendiary]

Getting mad at the judge is the wrong-ass way around this subject. Get mad at the regulations and the laws, if you're dissatisfied. This woman was working under very narrow margins of judicial discretion, and as she's new she probably doesn't want to push the boundaries. She did the best she could with what she had, honestly. 

 

[NancyDrewFan1989]

5 minutes ago, Jencendiary said:

Arkansas, being the place they'd insert the nozzle if America was getting an enema, allows morons to hang out a shingle and call themselves certified professional midwifes with a certain amount of apprenticeship hours under another moron who thinks it is right and proper to deliver babies with absolutely no medical training.

Apparently, during her apprenticeship, Jill was on site when Vanessa Giron - her mentor - refused to call 911 after the mother delivering begged for her to call real help. The child was subsequently delivered with cerebral palsy, and there was a lawsuit because the mother thought it would have been preventable with proper intervention.

I just did some research into this. It looks like Giron's license was revoked shortly after this birth. Jill, from the looks of it, still has her license and just isn't practicing. Also, the article I found from 2016 says that the birth happened two years ago (2014) and Jill got her CPM (Certified Practical Midwife license) in 2015, so this would've been during the time she was doing her apprenticeship. Trying to find the right words for this part, but Jill may not have "known better" for this birth as she was still "learning" and Giron was the one whom the mother had entrusted with the birth and to follow through with complications. Giron is the one who was supposed to be supervising Jill as she (Jill) was not fully certified and, according to Arkansas, was a midwife intern (so to say) during the birth. I looked up more research on the difference between a CPM and a CNM. Apparently, a CPM (the one Jill has) you don't need to get a basic college education for where as a CNM (Certified Nursing Midwife) you have to go to earn a nursing degree and do an internship in a hospital. Once again, a fundie flaw with education. The parents don't want their children to go to an accredited school to get proper training only for it to backfire when it becomes apparent they can't do the job correctly because they didn't receive the proper training that would come with a college education because they don't want them to be exposed to the outside world. 

[ADoyle90815]

5 minutes ago, Jencendiary said:

Getting mad at the judge is the wrong-ass way around this subject. Get mad at the regulations and the laws, if you're dissatisfied. This woman was working under very narrow margins of judicial discretion, and as she's new she probably doesn't want to push the boundaries. She did the best she could with what she had, honestly. 

 

I think the judge might have wanted to deny him bond, but had to allow it because she had to follow the law in that case.

[Carrots]

23 minutes ago, Jencendiary said:

Arkansas, being the place they'd insert the nozzle if America was getting an enema, allows morons to hang out a shingle and call themselves certified professional midwifes with a certain amount of apprenticeship hours under another moron who thinks it is right and proper to deliver babies with absolutely no medical training.

Apparently, during her apprenticeship, Jill was on site when Vanessa Giron - her mentor - refused to call 911 after the mother delivering begged for her to call real help. The child was subsequently delivered with cerebral palsy, and there was a lawsuit because the mother thought it would have been preventable with proper intervention.

That is just insane. How does anyone think that is a great system?! How many children/mothers have died or been needlessly injured as a result.

Sorry, I just find that mind blowingly medieval. In my country it is a highly sought after course that requires years of training and yearly professional development.

 

[NancyDrewFan1989]

18 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Agree. Betrayal trauma is real. Cheaters are abusive and usually lie really effectively. I highly doubt she knew what he was looking at and how. I’d guess at most she maybe caught him once or twice or learned that he’d  “fallen”back into “regular” porn a time or two over the past few years. 
 

Independent women who weren’t raised in a cult have a hard time negotiating this kind of betrayal. Unless Anna somehow found online support, she was probably totally in the dark and following Gothard repellent spiritual blessing for victims teaching. 
 

But now she knows. The do hope she gets some real counseling and support. 

This time I hope Daniel, Susanna, and Rebekah swoop in and help her get out of there rather than her parents. Right now Anna's parents are probably praying about what to do while their daughter sits and waits for their word. The only people who Anna will take advice from and listen to in this situation right now for leaving Josh is her parents. During the Ashley Madison scandal, Daniel defended Anna and mentioned their parents were pressuring her to stay with him and stick it. The only people who can help Anna get of there right now are Daniel, Susanna, and Rebekah. 

[Coconut Flan]

28 minutes ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

I didn't know that about the death of the minor. I know she attended some form of midwifery school that had training and got some form of accreditation. I thought it was one of those Christian programs that had some form of approved medical accreditation. 

It was correspondence school to get a NARM certificate.  It isn't even an accreditation.  

The infant didn't die, but almost did and ended up with disabilities.  The midwife had her license pulled and moved to another state.  

[Expectopatronus]

@OrchidBlossom Judges can be elected without law degrees? How does the court ensure that they know the law well enough to uphold it? Not snarking, I’m legitimately interested in how this works. 

[Carrots]

2 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

@OrchidBlossom Judges can be elected without law degrees? How does the court ensure that they know the law well enough to uphold it? Not snarking, I’m legitimately interested in how this works. 

So...you don't need a nursing degree to be a midwife and you don't need a law degree to be a judge.

What the hell?!

No wonder Michelle thinks the schoolhouse around the table is adequate. You don't actually need an education to do anything apparently? ?

[Smee]

Anna hasn’t said anything at all yet, has she? I think it’s too early to tell what she’ll do, and it may well come down to who she speaks to/seeks support from. A few gentle conversations with Jill or Rebekah might make a world of difference, but if in amongst her devastated tears the first person she calls is her dad or Michelle, the forgiving martyr narrative may continue.

[QuiverFullOfCondoms]

5 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

@OrchidBlossom Judges can be elected without law degrees? How does the court ensure that they know the law well enough to uphold it? Not snarking, I’m legitimately interested in how this works. 

Legal judges usually are attorneys or finished law school at least, except some low very level traffic court judges in some areas.

County judges aren’t actual legal judges, despite their name.

[NancyDrewFan1989]

13 hours ago, AuntK said:

This may have already been posted, if so, I apologize, but I just read on Twitter that the Arkansas judge who released Josh on his OWN RECOGNIZANCE just got appointed to her position on APRIL 29! Before that, she worked as an attorney in a firm representing truckers. 

Our judicial system sucks. The elevation of unqualified persons to the bench by political appointment based upon friends, family and money has got to stop. I don't care if it's always been this way, maybe we should consider ELECTING federal magistrates and judges.

I see what you are saying, but what was the judge to do. She would've denied him bond only for Josh and his attorney to go and find another judge with another hearing to let him out with possible looser restrictions. The judge, essentially, placed Josh under complete house arrest with GPS monitoring. I'm not saying I am happy about Josh being out of jail, because I am not. However, if the judge denied Josh bond, then he would've gone kept going until he was out. The judge probably figured this out and placed him under such tight restrictions that he couldn't step an inch outside of the LaCounts land without notifying his parole officer and risk being arrested.

[OrchidBlossom]

Just now, Expectopatronus said:

@OrchidBlossom Judges can be elected without law degrees? How does the court ensure that they know the law well enough to uphold it? Not snarking, I’m legitimately interested in how this works. 

Correct, in Montana, Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, New York, Texas, South Carolina, and Wyoming. In an additional 14 states a judge doesn't have to be a lawyer but if you're convicted by a nonlawyer judge you're entitled to a new trial under a lawyer judge.

I'm trying to think of a way to answer this that is more detailed or helpful than "they don't" but unfortunately that might be the best answer.

[Candycane36]

Imo, Josh may have met Anna on her own, but she was preyed upon by Jimbob because her father worked  in prison ministry. Josh's behaviour was widely known in thier circles. It was written about on message boards as early as 2005. Jim bob knew Anna's parent's would be more forgiving than most families. Also, Anna was the young,  sheltered, easily influenced by the Duggars celebrity status.  They knew they could groom her to be anything they wanted her to be. Sadly, I don't think she will ever leave Josh. I think she will be one of those statistics of abused women who will stay with thier abuser.  In another life outside of a cult, Anna could have been a second grade teacher, p.t a mom,  or married to a pastor running Bible study.  

Edited May 8, 2021 by Candycane36