[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 30: LaCounting On to His Trial Date

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

I'm sure Anna doesn't want her children interviewed by any child protective services people.

I think most people would have some trepidation because it's such a serious situation and trusting strangers to evaluate properly would be hard at first.  No reason not to cooperate, but I think anyone, no matter how specious they felt the charges were, would be stressed over it.  

And these people who have a group think that CPS is always out to take their kids because they're homeschooling Christian's would absolutely be shitting themselves even if Jesus was their alibi.

I think she's far more afraid of the kids possibly learning that there are other adults who have their safety in mind and there is somewhere to go for help outside of family.  

[OldFadedStar]

I do use covenant eyes on my husband. Long story, not important to go into here. My wording isn’t even great and I was considering doing away with it even before all this mess. I don’t care what your thoughts are on us using it to begin with, there’s a lot more that I’m unwilling to go into here. 
 

anyways, it’s super easy to get around. Not all images are even marked on the reports. My husband got around it once on twitch, he wasn’t watching porn but some of the scantily clad ladies that do live streams on there. There was no record of it on covenant eyes.. or if there is an inappropriate image on Facebook or Twitter. It pretty much just prevents actual porn sites. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

19 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I was brought up Catholic, but very loosely.  We did not attend mass regularly, my brother and I did not attend Catholic school. Though we were baptized and had first communions, no encouragement was given to us to be confirmed.  I raised my children in the Unitarian Church (my first husband was Jewish). My now-husband is a sincere Episcopalian, and I formally joined the Episcopal church. I haven’t been inside a Roman Catholic church except as a tourist or for a wedding in years.   However, I still think of myself as a Catholic.   It is a part of my identity. ?

Me too, I haven't been to church since my youngest's confirmation and he graduated college this week.  (Yay!)  But it's such a part of my identity I can't separate it out.

Also, when I was younger and still had infrequent contact with my mother's family of origin there were some fundy-lite converts in a Catholic family so "still Catholic" was kind of an inside joke letting you know at least with them you were safe from God bothering.

(No Catholic in my family has ever discussed religion during gatherings, but the new fundy-lites talked about nothing else.  There is nothing like an ex-Catholic turned fundy-lite to have an agenda with a vengeance.)

Are their parts you miss?  Mass was always torture for me, but as someone who takes a lot of comfort in ritual I miss that.  

 

 

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Me too, I haven't been to church since my youngest's confirmation and he graduated college this week.  (Yay!)  But it's such a part of my identity I can't separate it out.

Also, when I was younger and still had infrequent contact with my mother's family of origin there were some fundy-lite converts in a Catholic family so "still Catholic" was kind of an inside joke letting you know at least with them you were safe from God bothering.

(No Catholic in my family has ever discussed religion during gatherings, but the new fundy-lites talked about nothing else.  There is nothing like an ex-Catholic turned fundy-lite to have an agenda with a vengeance.)

Are their parts you miss?  Mass was always torture for me, but as someone who takes a lot of comfort in ritual I miss that.  

 

 

I actually like Mass now as an adult then when I was a child. I do agree, it is the comfort of the ritual. My aunt was a very staunch Catholic and never did I hear her go on and on about it or Christ. I agree that these Fundies can't do anything unless it is Jesus related. I think even He would say "just have a good time!".

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I actually like Mass now as an adult then when I was a child. I do agree, it is the comfort of the ritual. My aunt was a very staunch Catholic and never did I hear her go on and on about it or Christ. I agree that these Fundies can't do anything unless it is Jesus related. I think even He would say "just have a good time!".

I never learned to like Mass...I'm a grown up toddler when it comes to focus when bored and sitting still, forget it.

But I miss the comfort of my Rosary when I'm hurting.  The rote repetition to give my brain a little break helped.  I wore a crucifix and miraculous medal almost every day of my adult life up until about 5-6 years ago.  I still reach for it every day, still feels wrong without it.  I miss lighting a candle when I'm worried about someone.  I miss the feel of the cushion of the kneelers on my shins when praying in an otherwise empty church.  I miss saying grace in my head.  I miss making the sign of the cross, and I hate the guilt I feel when I do it inadvertently.

Mostly I miss seeing the sacred in life.  I used to.  Love, duty to others, family, parts of my past....at times I'd be overwhelmed by how sacred they felt to me and that is mostly gone.  This isn't a welcome change.

[libgirl2]

Just now, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I never learned to like Mass...I'm a grown up toddler when it comes to focus when bored and sitting still, forget it.

But I miss the comfort of my Rosary when I'm hurting.  The rote repetition to give my brain a little break helped.  I wore a crucifix and miraculous medal almost every day of my adult life up until about 5-6 years ago.  I still reach for it every day, still feels wrong without it.  I miss lighting a candle when I'm worried about someone.  I miss the feel of the cushion of the kneelers on my shins when praying in an otherwise empty church.  I miss saying grace in my head.  I miss making the sign of the cross, and I hate the guilt I feel when I do it inadvertently.

Mostly I miss seeing the sacred in life.  I used to.  Love, duty to others, family, parts of my past....at times I'd be overwhelmed by how sacred they felt to me and that is mostly gone.  This isn't a welcome change.

The Rosary is meditation plain and simple. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, libgirl2 said:

The Rosary is meditation plain and simple. 

I know, and it worked.  I just can't replicate it with the other kind.  

[luv2laugh]

6 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

And that is why if Anna does know the extent of what he was looking at, she would not believe it because he is always "So gentle" or something like that. As others have been saying, it is his facade, the mask he wears. 

We can only hope. It's possible after the Josh affair scandal, she asked if there was anything she could do to "spice up" their marriage and received an unexpected answer yet, felt obligated/pressured to comply. Although, we don't know anything - it could've gone either way but I wouldn't be surprised if Josh introduced something she wasn't comfortable with.

It was far more comforting, for me, to think Josh was being investigated for tax evasion... It's also more comforting to think of Anna being treated compassionately by Josh than pressured into bedroom activity she didn't want nor expect.

I think Anna doesn't want the children examined because I recall from her 1st pregnancy episode, her visit to the gynecologist where Josh referred to her as "great at swallowing". Specifically, Anna was extremely nervous and said she never had an gynecologist appt before. The M kids are probably upset with Josh's sudden arrest and with the surrounding Duggars in a frenzy. I think Anna doesn't want her kids to undergo an exam because she doesn't want to upset them further but also because, like many fundies, she might think there's a government "conspiracy agenda" (like Michelle said in the Megyn Kelly interview) fearing CPS will take her kids away.

Edited May 8, 2021 by luv2laugh

[Howl]

2 hours ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

Cheating on your spouse is gross, but it's not even remotely in the realm of what Josh has done. 

This is absolutely true; however, in the context of all the things he has done that we know about (molestation, Ashley Madison, going to at least one prostitute, downloading violent CSA) he has "disordered" sexual compulsions. I'm sure there's a specific term in psychiatry/psychology for this dynamic; I have no idea what it is. 

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Yes, everything is filtered in her head because she chooses not to read outside her bubble.  That is very different than lack of access.

There an interesting back and forth in posts that boils down to the question of Anna's personal agency/choice. 

So here's my idle speculation.  Remember that Covenant Eyes software is a two-way street.  It isn't just Anna monitoring Josh, it's also meant for headships (like Josh) to closely monitor and CONTROL the internet use of wives and children.  

For all the years that I've been following FJ and discussions of fundy families and the ways in which IFB/IBLP/trad Catholic et al. beliefs can damage people, being brought up strictly IBLP and homeschooled with Gothard's materials  and belifs stand out for being incredibly damaging for girls and women. 

My take is that Anna has zero understanding that she has agency in her own life in the sense that most of us do.   THAT'S THE WHOLE DEAL WITH BEING RAISED IN A STRICT PATRIARCHY AND HEADSHIP PARADIGM.  The purpose of patriarchy is to convince girls and women that they have no control, nor should they have control, over their own thoughts and actions, let alone the trajectory of their own life.  That control belongs to penis holders and penis holders ONLY. 

So Jill.  Derrick Dillard graduated from a secular law school yesterday, after graduating with a degree in accounting from a secular college.   That's seven years of secular education and exposure to non fundy people for Derrick and by extension he influenced Jill's beliefs. 

Do we really think that Jill would be where she is today (kids in evil public school, birth control, etc) had she been married to a strictly IBLP man with a high school degree from School of the Kitchen Table?  No, she'd be cranking out babies like there's no tomorrow (The Rapture!) and Parroting the IBLP/Duggar party line and firmly under the thumb of her headship. 

Again, it's a discussion.  I have no problem with those who completely disagree with my take on the issue. 

 

[Tatar-tot]

I remember some conversation Jill & Derrick had early in their marriage of her always deferring to him.  I think it was making him crazy because he wanted her opinion yet she had no idea on how to think on her own.

I do hope Jill can pursue her educational dreams.  If she still wants to pursue a career in the health industry she actually does it.  Jill is so young & her kids are at a great age to go back to school.  In addition, if Derrick works for a law firm as an associate he is going to be putting in some long hours after he passes the bar.   She is going to be pretty lonely otherwise waiting for him to walk in the door after the kids go to bed. 

[Jasmar]

6 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Family Conference FB page about how believers are caught off guard when it comes to dark forces. They link to a video from 2020 where Gil Bates rants about how phones and computers are a way to bring evil into your life. I didn’t actually watch the entire video since Gil is painful to listen to, so he could have said a lot more. But I think this was their way of addressing it. Basically claiming they tried to warn people about the evil that computers can bring

And I suppose the post includes links to all the Bates kids’ ubiquitous social media accounts? Freaking hypocrites.

[Jasmar]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Mostly I miss seeing the sacred in life.  I used to.  Love, duty to others, family, parts of my past....at times I'd be overwhelmed by how sacred they felt to me and that is mostly gone.  This isn't a welcome change

I’m not Catholic, but ex-evangelical, and I totally agree with you here. I sometimes start praying for someone and then realize I don’t believe there’s anyone there listening, and it’s hard.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

41 minutes ago, Howl said:

Again, it's a discussion.  I have no problem with those who completely disagree with my take on the issue. 

I think the question is one I posed in the last thread, at what point are they accountable for their own actions?

Not as children, no one expects the brainwashing to vanish at 18, but when?  Should be before children are born.

She has brought up to know her life is the best way, but she does know it's not the only way.  She has three siblings who left and she lives in this country.  If they thought everyone lived as they do they wouldn't consider it their job to tell us we're all wrong.

I think Jana is a good example, as well as Anna....As a kid and sister mom to her buddies I don't hold Jana accountable for following the party line.  She was a child raising her parents kids their way with no option to say no.  I hold her completely accountable as a 30 something where she is complicit in indoctrinating the kids at this point.

Anna - I don't hold her accountable as a 20 year old getting married, until i learn otherwise I assume she wasn't told anything near the truth about him.  I hold her completely accountable after 2015.  

For those of you who don't think Anna is capable of thinking outside her brainwashing I'm curious why JB/M don't get the same pass.  Clearly they have their own issues to adopt this lifestyle, if they had damaging childhoods does that matter?

I'm not being snarky, I think where the line is drawn is interesting and it really forms how we see her actions right now.

[Satan'sFortress]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I think she's far more afraid of the kids possibly learning that there are other adults who have their safety in mind and there is somewhere to go for help outside of family.  

That might be one of the most chilling things I've read on FJ. That is what they teach, though. Everything outside their circle is dangerous. 

[FiveAcres]

1 minute ago, Satan'sFortress said:

That might be one of the most chilling things I've read on FJ. That is what they teach, though. Everything outside their circle is dangerous. 

And it the people who you have been dependent on since birth, and have been told love you, what will people do to you who are strangers? 

[hoipolloi]

Perhaps, at the moment, Anna is just doing the minimum in everything except caring for the kids. She may be complying with the court's (and JB's) directives but is otherwise trying to shut it all off so she doesn't have to think about it any more than necessary. That said, I agree that she is accountable since 2015, at least, and does not get a pass. She is an adult & more importantly, she is a parent with responsibility to her children. They come before Josh, her in-laws, their fucking cult, or anything else. I hope she understands that.

Re: leaving with the kids. I would not put it past JB & M to be threatening her with removing all money and support if she bails on Josh. You'd like to think that her own family or others would help her navigate leaving and getting a divorce. Perhaps they would if Josh is convicted but who knows. I am not optimistic at this point.

[Howl]

29 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

She has brought up to know her life is the best way, but she does know it's not the only way.  She has three siblings who left and she lives in this country. 

She also has two sisters still living the IBLP dream: Priscilla (5 kids) and Esther (wife to The World's Worst Missionary, Bro. John Shrader) with 11 or 12 sprogs (I can never keep up on the exact number). 

Yes, three (out of 8 total) have left the fold.   Sibs Susanna York, Rebekah Hunt, Daniel Keller have all left the family "ministry."

Nathan and David are still in, apparently (I don't follow the Kellers). 

It's odd trying to set the age of accountability for an adult woman with 6 (almost 7) kids, but this is fundy life we're talking about. 

Have to wonder about the Keller family dynamic where three of the kids put it in the rear view mirror, one of whom had a baby out of wedlock, and the other two married and divorced.  The numbers kinda remind me of Lisa Pennington's kids. 

*note*  In a quick google search, one article noted that Ma and Pa Keller consider divorce to be a grievous sin, so pressure to remain married to a revolting creep like Josh might be coming from the Keller side as well as the Duggar side. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Howl

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

Re: leaving with the kids. I would not put it past JB & M to be threatening her with removing all money and support if she bails on Josh.

I wouldn't put it past them either, due to hubris thinking Anna would never think to write a tell all.  

If they did I hope it would snap her hard into reality and do what she has to do.  Honestly, I bet they'll keep paying since I can't imagine they want her sharing the behind the scenes from the Josh scandals.

[Coconut Flan]

The Kellers pushed her to stay married and heal the marriage during scandals one and two.  I don't know if this is horrific enough to rattle their stance or not.  

[CaptainFunderpants]

2 hours ago, OldFadedStar said:

I do use covenant eyes on my husband. Long story, not important to go into here. My wording isn’t even great and I was considering doing away with it even before all this mess. I don’t care what your thoughts are on us using it to begin with, there’s a lot more that I’m unwilling to go into here. 
 

anyways, it’s super easy to get around. Not all images are even marked on the reports. My husband got around it once on twitch, he wasn’t watching porn but some of the scantily clad ladies that do live streams on there. There was no record of it on covenant eyes.. or if there is an inappropriate image on Facebook or Twitter. It pretty much just prevents actual porn sites. 

Someone on a prior thread noted that Covenant Eyes is really expensive, and so in your experience is it the best of a bunch of overall ineffective software options?

 Thoughts are with you in your struggle ❤️  Porn addiction is a huge problem in our society.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

8 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

The Kellers pushed her to stay married and heal the marriage during scandals one and two.  I don't know if this is horrific enough to rattle their stance or not.  

I could be wrong, but I get the impression that if Anna were to show up with the kids and some suitcases they'd take them in.  Probably non-stop Jesus badgering about forgiveness, but I do have a feeling they'd give them a place to stay.  

I am curious as to how they're taking this at the Keller homestead.  I'm also very curious about the Bates' reaction.  I'd like to know who in fundyland is not surprised by this.

[hoipolloi]

4 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'd like to know who in fundyland is not surprised by this.

As usual, the response so far is radio silence apart from a few thoughts & prayers.

[backyard sylph]

25 minutes ago, Howl said:

She also has two sisters still living the IBLP dream: Priscilla (5 kids) and Esther (wife to The World's Worst Missionary, Bro. John Shrader) with 11 or 12 sprogs (I can never keep up on the exact number). 

Yes, three (out of 8 total) have left the fold.   Sibs Susanna York, Rebekah Hunt, Daniel Keller have all left the family "ministry."

Nathan and David are still in, apparently (I don't follow the Kellers). 

It's odd trying to set the age of accountability for an adult woman with 6 (almost 7) kids, but this is fundy life we're talking about. 

Have to wonder about the Keller family dynamic where three of the kids put it in the rear view mirror, one of whom had a baby out of wedlock, and the other two married and divorced.  The numbers kinda remind me of Lisa Pennington's kids. 

*note*  In a quick google search, one article noted that Ma and Pa Keller consider divorce to be a grievous sin, so pressure to remain married to a revolting creep like Josh might be coming from the Keller side as well as the Duggar side. 

It has yet again occurred to me that another hypocritical factor in these people's lives in equating all sin is that...

They really don't do that at all. You draw the line at divorce but forgive the serial cheating or abuse that led to the desire for it? Actually you just think of your own daughters as cattle. Which is ridiculously Paulean plus Old Testament foolishness, and also disgusting.

[amaznmom2u]

Obligatory long time no see! 

In my capacity as an LEO (I am now retired) I have had 2 CP (CSA) cases and one involved the infamous file. All four of us seasoned officers (because you are not allowed to watch these by yourself) vomited. 

So just stopping by to say: Fuck you JimBob, Michelle, Josh, and Anna. 

Also, since I can't speak to her myself:

Mrs. Reber you definitely have reason to fear Josh. Please do not allow yourself to be alone with him. Even though she is not a minor, do not allow your daughter to be alone with him.  Predator is not a strong enough word. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jackie3]

5 hours ago, Tatar-tot said:

4.  The FBI/CPS need to interview every single Duggar child and grandchild  under the age of 15 to determine [redacted].  Josh is pretty slimy. [redacted specific graphic spec - Buffy]  This guy is sick.  He goes right for the violent stuff.  There is no way he has not acted out on his impulses in some way, shape or form. 

 

Are you saying you are certain a Duggar minor has been sexually abused? Because I believe the FJ rules prohibit such speculation. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy
redacted from quote box