[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 30: LaCounting On to His Trial Date

[Emma]

1 hour ago, CuttySark said:

That's the thing, really - if you (generic plural 'you' - English needs a 'vous' form!) were taught about it by someone non-Jewish, then you didn't learn the symbolism except possibly at its most basic - at worst, it'll have had Jesus stirred into everything.

I highly recommend attending a real seder if you want to learn something about Jewish practice. Some synagogues hold interfaith seders for precisely this reason, and hopefully by next year will be able to host events again. It's always a good time! 

Edited to add: For discussions on things like this and a window into modern Judaism, I always recommend following Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg on Twitter. She's written quite a bit about interfaith respect and education. 

https://twitter.com/TheRaDR

I knew a man who had a Native American mother and Caucasian father. He was killed in a car accident.  When I attended the viewing a few women from his mother’s tribe came in and sang a song. I had no idea what was going on so I just stepped back and watched quietly and respectfully thinking what a privilege it was to observe this. The funeral was done inside a Presbyterian church, led by a Presbyterian minister, some of the tribe were there, quiet and observing. The graveside service was turned over to the tribe and I was really upset that the Presbyterian minister tried to participate. I felt it was disrespectful to try and participate in something he really couldn’t understand.

That said, I attended a Seder at a private home. Jesus observed Seder and the Last Supper (Seder) is an important part of Holy Week for Christians. Should Christians try and take over Jewish customs? No. But the Last Supper, aka Maundy Thursday, aka Seder, has been part of Christianity’s Holy Week for millennia. Is it wrong for Christians to observe the Last Supper?

[choralcrusader8613]

9 minutes ago, Emma said:

That said, I attended a Seder at a private home. Jesus observed Seder and the Last Supper (Seder) is an important part of Holy Week for Christians. Should Christians try and take over Jewish customs? No. But the Last Supper, aka Maundy Thursday, aka Seder, has been part of Christianity’s Holy Week for millennia. Is it wrong for Christians to observe the Last Supper?

Christians can observe Holy Thursday by going to church, IMO. Anything else is appropriation, by my lights, and I'm speaking as a Christian.

[Jess]

One thought I would add is to keep in mind a federal magistrate judge is not a state family court judge they are not empowered to act as a family court judge and can’t violate the constitution by acting as one. As far as we know Ann and Josh still have full parental rights and the only way to change that is for a state family court judge to make an order. She can only do so much but that doesn’t mean a state court judge can’t make an order forbidding him to have contact with his own children if cause is found. They would be two separate cases and the family court case would not something we as the public have ready access to the way we do the federal proceedings.  

[SnarkyLawyer]

31 minutes ago, apple1 said:

... along with a really good margarita.

And after reading the nature of thr particular violent film, in evidence, and the man who was responsible,.....a Silkwood Shower. Even my worst case wasn't that depraved.

8 minutes ago, Jess said:

One thought I would add is to keep in mind a federal magistrate judge is not a state family court judge they are not empowered to act as a family court judge and can’t violate the constitution by acting as one. As far as we know Ann and Josh still have full parental rights and the only way to change that is for a state family court judge to make an order. She can only do so much but that doesn’t mean a state court judge can’t make an order forbidding him to have contact with his own children if cause is found. They would be two separate cases and the family court case would not something we as the public have ready access to the way we do the federal proceedings.  

Thank you. I forgot that she is a magistrate judge, and I appreciate the feedback.

Edited May 7, 2021 by SnarkyLawyer
Left out some words

[HerNameIsBuffy]

31 minutes ago, Antimony said:

Almost every child that victimizes other children has been victimized themselves. (This is not a happy thought. We don't know that this happened, but it wouldn't be statistically unlikely.) 

Do you have a source for actual numbers on this?  

[Alisamer]

15 minutes ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

Christians can observe Holy Thursday by going to church, IMO. Anything else is appropriation, by my lights, and I'm speaking as a Christian.

Generally my church has a casual service in the fellowship hall, where we often all have a meal together and then communion. It's not a seder, not intended to be one (in fact I think one time it was hot dogs and chips...) but it is fellowshipping. It happens after work, and no matter what time you choose it's going to interfere with someone's dinner, so it makes sense to have a meal. (We also have a "snack supper" every Wednesday evening, that you sign up and pay for ahead of time if you choose to participate.)

So I think having a service and communion isn't appropration, but having a meal together isn't necessarily appropriation either. 

We're Baptists. We'll have a meal for any reason we can think of. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

16 minutes ago, Jess said:

One thought I would add is to keep in mind a federal magistrate judge is not a state family court judge they are not empowered to act as a family court judge and can’t violate the constitution by acting as one. As far as we know Ann and Josh still have full parental rights and the only way to change that is for a state family court judge to make an order. She can only do so much but that doesn’t mean a state court judge can’t make an order forbidding him to have contact with his own children if cause is found. They would be two separate cases and the family court case would not something we as the public have ready access to the way we do the federal proceedings.  

To the bolded - Josh's parental rights have been limited by the court in this case requiring supervision.  Are you saying they can restrict his parental rights due to the charges, but not hers?  Is it considered a parental right to be the one to supervise?  I agree that due to her parental rights she has a right to be there with any 3rd party supervisor, I'm just curious where the line is for her rights.  

[choralcrusader8613]

10 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

So I think having a service and communion isn't appropration, but having a meal together isn't necessarily appropriation either. 

We're Baptists. We'll have a meal for any reason we can think of. 

Oh yeah, food before is fine IMO. Just don't get appropriative and have lamb, etc. I cant do meat during Lent, but I'm always down for a communal meal.

[AuntKrazy]

@SnarkyLawyer

Can federal court appoint a guardian ad litem, or does it have to be family court?

 

 

[Cornelia13]

29 minutes ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

Christians can observe Holy Thursday by going to church, IMO. Anything else is appropriation, by my lights, and I'm speaking as a Christian.

I'm curious about what you mean ... Holy Thursday/Maudy Thursday is an important day of Holy Week for the Catholic Church. Although I don't believe it is considered a "holy day", we don't have to refrain from eating meat. Back when I attended Holy Thursday services, it was usually the service where the Eucharist Minister would wash feet and the food would be blessed. 

How would the Catholic traditions be appropriation?

[Antimony]

24 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Do you have a source for actual numbers on this?  

They're all audio, but I've linked several episodes of You're Wrong About podcast before and the Hunting Warhead covered some of these snowballing factors. 

Googling for this was hard because you have to use the word "child" twice, and that mostly returns adult-to-child abuse but I did find the following;

Quote

Research consistently demonstrates that children who have been sexually abused engage in a higher frequency of problematic sexual behaviors than children who have not been sexually abused (KendallTackett et al., 1993; Putnam, 2003). In a review of 45 empirical studies, Kendall-Tackett et al. (1993) found that sexual behaviors were the most commonly examined sequelae of child sexual abuse (examined in 23 studies). Of the eight studies that employed a comparison group comprised of either nonabused clinical or nonclinical children, all found that sexually abused children were significantly more likely to demonstrate problematic sexual behaviors than their nonabused counterparts. 

590 N. Elkovitch et al. / Clinical Psychology Review 29 (2009) 586–598

"Problematic sexual behaviors" is broad but includes abusing other children, etc etc. It seems to be another jargon-y phrase used in the research.

Edit: I should be clear that it's certainly possible for a child to sexually abuse another child with no history of child abuse on the part of the abuser, but it is less likely, more unusual, etc. Also, again a mess -- some of the information like "my child has never been sexually abused" came from parents, instead of a psychological eval confirmation.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Antimony

[choralcrusader8613]

17 minutes ago, Cornelia13 said:

I'm curious about what you mean ... Holy Thursday/Maudy Thursday is an important day of Holy Week for the Catholic Church. Although I don't believe it is considered a "holy day", we don't have to refrain from eating meat. Back when I attended Holy Thursday services, it was usually the service where the Eucharist Minister would wash feet and the food would be blessed. 

How would the Catholic traditions be appropriation?

Just a heads up that some Catholics do have to refrain from eating meat for all of Lent, aka most Eastern Catholics (I'm Byzantine Catholic). That said, if it's genuine practice from one's own Christian tradition, then I don't have issues with it. I was taking issue with celebrating it as Seder, because that's not part of current Christian tradition. Otherwise I don't care.

Edited May 7, 2021 by choralcrusader8613
y'all i clearly can't spell soz

[Jess]

10 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

To the bolded - Josh's parental rights have been limited by the court in this case requiring supervision.  Are you saying they can restrict his parental rights due to the charges, but not hers?  Is it considered a parental right to be the one to supervise?  I agree that due to her parental rights she has a right to be there with any 3rd party supervisor, I'm just curious where the line is for her rights.  

Partially, yes Anna still has full rights and the federal court can not interfere with her rights unless she was a party. They are only allowed to interfere with Josh’s rights because he is out in pretrial release, but they are only allowed to interfere with his rights the to the extent that will ensure he comes back to court and to protect the community from him. In doing so they judge has to use the “least restrictive” means possible. Until convicted he has rights. Also, he is agreeing with the order he signed his agreement before leaving jail, if he doesn’t like it he can stay in jail. So, if he didn’t agree with the federal court interfering and giving him supervised visitation he could not agree and stay in jail. If there was some evidence Anna was not able to protect her children then maybe the court could be more restrictive and order a different supervision level, but nothing if that nature was said in court from what I’ve read.  I’m not sure I’m doing a great job with this explanation, but to sum up the power of the magistrate judge here is just to make a pretrial release order as to what the least restrictive means are to ensure Josh comes back to court for his future hearings and the community is protected. 

 

This judges order also has no effect on what a state family court judge can order. A state child welfare investigation will go to state family court with an entire different judge who can make their own rulings.

 

[CuttySark]

1 hour ago, Emma said:

Jesus observed Seder and the Last Supper (Seder) is an important part of Holy Week for Christians. Should Christians try and take over Jewish customs? No. But the Last Supper, aka Maundy Thursday, aka Seder, has been part of Christianity’s Holy Week for millennia. Is it wrong for Christians to observe the Last Supper?

This is not correct. The seder as Jews practice it today evolved around the second century CE and has continued to evolve since. Whatever Jesus did on Maundy Thursday, it bore no resemblance to the modern Passover seder. Please read the article I linked in my post - it does a very thorough job of explaining the issue, and why Christian appropriation of Jewish rites is so painful for Jews. 

(The short form? Christians have been murdering us for centuries because we celebrate Passover. It's the height of cruelty to now claim it for yourselves. Read up on the blood libel.) 

I'm trying to link to a fairly long thread on Twitter and I'm not sure if it's working properly - apologies if this displays strangely!

OK, yeah - you have to click on the embedded tweet and it will take you to the thread. Please do read it, and the linked subthreads. There's a lot there that will hopefully help inform your choices going forward.) 

Edited May 7, 2021 by CuttySark
Adding link

[anniebgood]

18 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Sorry to indulge in thread-drift so soon in the new thread, but in the past thread some people snarked about how odd it would be to marry someone with the same name as one of your parents, and others seemed to agree.  I have to challenge that.  

My mother married a man with the same name as her father. My uncle (different side of the family) married a woman with the same name as his mother.  Neither one of them was kinky or weird.  My grandmother and my father both had very common names. 

My husband’s late wife had the same name as one of his sisters. Again, a very common name.   

More recently, my husband’s daughter married a man with the same name as my husband (her father). Again, it is a ridiculously common name.  No one thought it was weird.  (They do have different nicknames, but it is the same name.)

If we start getting snarky about people who marry (or date) people with the same name as their close relatives, we are seriously I  the romantic options of those unfortunate enough to have very popular/common names or who are the children of parents with very common/popular names. ?

I married a man who has the same name as my brother, and whose birthday is usually in the same week on the calendar, they're separated by a year. My husband is a II, so we decided not to name our son the same. Totally different name. Nothing weird. 

[formergothardite]

17 minutes ago, CuttySark said:

The short form? Christians have been murdering us for centuries because we celebrate Passover. It's the height of cruelty to now claim it for yourselves. Read up on the blood libel.) 

Exactly. After spending a long time trying to murder people for being Jewish, it is really awful for Christians to cherry pick the parts of the Jewish religion they like and try to claim it was always theirs anyway so they get to take it. 

Learning about a religion in a respectful way is totally different than when Christians have a seder, especially when they go so far as to then claim every part of it points to Jesus, which implies the Jewish religion is wrong. 

 

[libgirl2]

I think this was brought up already. One wonders how someone could have children yet engage in viewing this type of material, material so violent and perverted...... I don't believe Josh really loves his children. If he did, he would be sickened by what he is accused of viewing, something that goes so far it isn't imaginable. He doesn't love Anna either, I believe Josh loves himself (maybe). 

[SnarkyLawyer]

1 hour ago, AuntKrazy said:

@SnarkyLawyer

Can federal court appoint a guardian ad litem, or does it have to be family court?

 

 

I worked at the state level, and because I dealt in felonies, the children had already been removed, and a guardian ad litem appointed, if necessary, by the time the case got to our office.

The Feds have their own child abuse statutes, and procedure. I'm looking up now, as to whether they have to go to state family court, to get an order for a guardian ad litem. Federal Procedure Rule 17(c) says that federal courts have the authority to appoint a guardian ad litem. It states that "Federal courts "shall appoint a guardian ad litem for an infant or incompetent person not otherwise represented in an action or shall make such other order as it deems proper for [his or her] protection." In practice, the courts have interpreted this last provision broadly: the term infants is taken to mean unborn children and all minors. That could refer only to minors, who have no other custodian, which wouldn't apply here. I have no issue with being told I'm wrong, but I do find it odd that federal courts wouldn't have their own system in place.

However, my point still stands that if the prosecutor thought there was sufficient evidence to believe the children had been molested, due to the images alone, he would have initiated whatever procedure was necessary to obtain a guardian ad litem, and then conduct the forensic exams. He wouldn't just shrug his shoulders and wait, knowing he could add additional charges, and potentially remove all visitation rights by Josh, pending the outcome of the trial. 

Additionally, although I disagree that a federal magistrate doesn't have to safeguard Constitutional rights, a state judge definitely does, and the same considerations I've already stated, would apply. There have to be legal grounds to demand that Anna submits to an evaluation, and assuming she won't follow the law, due to her religious beliefs, gets into a really sketchy area.

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by SnarkyLawyer
Adding more information

[Cults-r-us]

18 hours ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Aww thanks! ? I appreciate that. I hope it happens soon

Me, too!

[HarleyQuinn]

I can't remember who said something about Majorie Jackson dodging a bullet from this because I just caught up with several pages, but she works for the FRC now, so fuck her tbh.

[TuringMachine]

9 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Learning about a religion in a respectful way is totally different than when Christians have a seder, especially when they go so far as to then claim every part of it points to Jesus, which implies the Jewish religion is wrong. 

We usually have non Jewish friends at our seders, but they're there from a learning / appreciation perspective. It's a very different situation than when Christians try to claim it for themselves. Then it feels like an attempt at erasure. Especially when these are often people who are already trying to erase us through conversion. 

[Bad Wolf]

Finally caught up. It's taken days, and I'll probably be a thread behind by the time I've posted this.

1. Thank you mods for keeping this together. I'm impressed.

2.  Thank you for all the fur babies. They really helped.

3.  My opinion, for what it's worth:  If/when Josh goes to prison, I think Anna will remain in the warehouse. I think her kids already attend SOTDRT at the big house. Jana, Johanna, and Jennifer will be sent over to help/keep an eye on her. Will she divorce Josh? I think it will depend on how long a sentence he gets. I don't see her making any major changes for a few years, anyway. I also don't see. CPS taking the children, unless there's more going on than we know. Why traumatize them more, if they're safe now?  I would like to see some follow up with real therapy, not just Jesus.

[FiveAcres]

Just now, TuringMachine said:

We usually have non Jewish friends at our seders, but they're there from a learning / appreciation perspective. It's a very different situation than when Christians try to claim it for themselves. Then it feels like an attempt at erasure. Especially when these are often people who are already trying to erase us through conversion. 

The only seder I've gone to was one to we were invited around thirty years ago by friends who were Jewish. There were mainly having the meal for Jewish friends of theirs that did not have local family. 

[Cults-r-us]

8 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I think this was brought up already. One wonders how someone could have children yet engage in viewing this type of material, material so violent and perverted...... I don't believe Josh really loves his children. If he did, he would be sickened by what he is accused of viewing, something that goes so far it isn't imaginable. He doesn't love Anna either, I believe Josh loves himself (maybe). 

I suspect he is very compartmentalized: a Dr. Jekyl and Joshie Hyde. I think it is possible that he is able to perform, "keep sweet" so to speak, be nice to Anna  and the kids to stay out of trouble and not arouse suspicion, but do what he wants when he can. 

[bettertomarry]

8 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I just saw this posted on the main Duggar thread (thanks @WiseGirl ) and hadn't heard this before.  The case of Jill, Jessa, Jinger, and Joy suing which they filed in 2017.

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/apr/30/duggar-daughters-case-on-fall-track/

 

Timing isn't good for Josh.  It's going to remind those paying attention of the trauma of his sisters the publicizing of which is causing them to sue for life time therapy plans.  

So what does everyone think?  Will JB encourage the girls to drop the lawsuit so #JoshDuggar isn't trending?  If they won anything, I'd assume the money would go right to them and bypass Josh's defense fund JB.

Edited May 7, 2021 by bettertomarry
to correct typo