[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 30: LaCounting On to His Trial Date

[NancyDrewFan1989]

5 minutes ago, Smee said:

Anna hasn’t said anything at all yet, has she? I think it’s too early to tell what she’ll do, and it may well come down to who she speaks to/seeks support from. A few gentle conversations with Jill or Rebekah might make a world of difference, but if in amongst her devastated tears the first person she calls is her dad or Michelle, the forgiving martyr narrative may continue.

She hasn't said anything at all. All of the rumors and what we are hearing about Anna are from tabloids with sources who claim to be close to the family. I think we will hear from the Keller's (probably Daniel and/or Susanna) and David and Priscilla Waller before we get any statement from her.

[OrchidBlossom]

6 minutes ago, QuiverFullOfCondoms said:

Legal judges usually are attorneys or finished law school at least, except some low very level traffic court judges in some areas.

County judges aren’t actual legal judges, despite their name.

As I understand it, in all of the states I listed above, the judges are allowed to be nonlawyers even if they are criminal court judges. 

 

ETA: For at least misdemeanors, some states appear to require felony cases to be heard by lawyer judges. Still, a misdemeanor can put you in jail.

Edited May 8, 2021 by OrchidBlossom

[luv2laugh]

I don’t think Josh’s attorneys will ever want Anna to speak. With the way his case is looking, I only expect an announcement from Anna if she ever leaves Josh. Priscilla (Anna’s sister) is already posting family events on Instagram. Mum’s the word.

I doubt JB/Michelle & Anna were expecting these graphic details and I’m imagining TTH is “up in flames” right now. 

I think Anna’s siblings who are non-fundie might try to encourage her to leave. She didn’t listen to Daniel last time but maybe she will reconsider whenever she exits the denial phase (maybe 2 years?).

I agree with one of the other posters above who said Anna is trauma-bonded.

(If) Josh goes to prison, Anna will adapt to living daily life without him and may start to dread thoughts of his return, whenever he sees light of the day. 
 

I think JB & Michelle will try to encourage Anna to move in with them and assume Jana’s role along with filling in as “2nd parent” for Josh with the M kids.  I’m interested in seeing how JB & Michelle are going to try to spin this, eventually. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by luv2laugh

[OrchidBlossom]

9 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

 

In Josh's perfect world I have no doubt things are far less wholesome.

 

BLECH you just made me imagine Josh's perfect world for a second. ???

On the topic of religious customs and observance, as is being discussed: I think the line between respectful participation and inappropriate appropriation is down to four things:

1. What do you expect to receive out of your participation? Some expectations are respectful and fine, such as knowledge and understanding, a closer bond with someone who is a part of that culture, or an interest in sharing and exchanging cultural norms. Some are bad, such as intending to monetize the culture or intending to mock/disrespect it.

2. Have you been invited by someone in the culture to participate? I have attended Seders at the invitation of a close friend of mine, despite being a Catholic raised atheist. I went in with respectful intentions and I enjoyed learning more about their beliefs. Similarly, I've attended various churches and mosques as well as cultural events like flamenco dancing and Day of the Dead observance. Always at the invitation of someone in the culture and with a respectful mindset. I would not, for example, seek out an experience that is generally private, holy/sacred, and important, such as some indigenous rituals or a mikvah. 

3. Have you done enough research to understand the context of the cultural event or religious ritual you've been invited to attend? I think this is obvious, but easily overlooked. If you choose to go to a Seder or a Day of the Dead observance, it probably isn't the time to jump in cold and pester your friend with questions. Just do a little reading beforehand.

4. Is the culture one which has been historically oppressed by white people, especially where the culture is largely made up of people of color? If it's a historically oppressive culture, it isn't appropriation. No one is appropriating Catholicism by going to a mass, or British culture by going into the Church of England.

Edited May 8, 2021 by OrchidBlossom
add to religious discussion

[Mela99]

Speculation train coming: what if he was the Reddit law student summing up the hearing? That would explain how that person had access, especially if Jill was maybe attending. Wasn’t that law student finishing up a final? I want this to be true! 
 
But good for him. I hope they continue to move away from the cult and heal from the trauma. 

Oh that would be HYSTERICAL

[NancyDrewFan1989]

8 minutes ago, Candycane36 said:

Imo, Josh may have met Anna on her own, but she was preyed upon by Jimbob because her father worked  in prison ministry. Josh's behaviour was widely known in thier circles. It was written about on message boards as early as 2005. Jim bob knew Anna's parent's would be more forgiving than most families. Also, Anna was the young,  sheltered easily influenced by the Duggars celebrity status.  They knew they could groom her to be anything they wanted her to be. 

Not only all of that, but Jim Bob mentioned in the Megyn Kelly interview when the molestation scandal broke that he and Michelle knew other families who had gone through the same thing with a son of theirs. Jim Bob made it sound like it was common for a teenage boy to be "curious" and justified Josh's actions because of it. I re-watched some of the Megyn Kelly interview last night, now I can't help but wonder what other fundie families on here are discussed on FJ who have a son or daughter who acted "inappropriately because they were curious about the opposite gender". I can't help but wonder what caused these parents to become so brainwashed that they are enabling their children in a disturbing and horrifying way.

[NancyDrewFan1989]

16 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

I don’t think Josh’s attorneys will ever want Anna to speak. With the way his case is looking, I only an announcement from Anna if she ever leaves Josh. Priscilla (Anna’s sister) is already posting family events on Instagram. Mum’s the word.

There is no way Josh's attorneys will let Anna testify. That would be a total disaster. No matter how much prep she'll get, Anna won't be able to give answers that help the defenses case out in any way. I can just see it now, Anna crying on the stand while the prosecutor shows her all this evidence of Josh's crimes while she is diligently saying, "he is a good Godly man who has a problem and needs Christian rehab and not jail".

As for Priscilla, the only event she posted was for Peter's birthday. I can see the Wallers posting more about their family. But, I don't think they will be featuring Josh, Anna, and their children until things start to calm down. Also, I think they will release a statement of some sort. When I scrolled through the comments I noticed they were still limiting them. I wouldn't be surprised if they, meaning David and Priscilla, release a statement similar to Jim Bob and Michelle's about Josh if they continue to get more messages and comments about his crime.

[luv2laugh]

1 hour ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

There is no way Josh's attorneys will let Anna testify. That would be a total disaster. No matter how much prep she'll get, Anna won't be able to give answers that help the defenses case out in any way. I can just see it now, Anna crying on the stand while the prosecutor shows her all this evidence of Josh's crimes while she is diligently saying, "he is a good Godly man who has a problem and needs Christian rehab and not jail".

As for Priscilla, the only event she posted was for Peter's birthday. I can see the Wallers posting more about their family. But, I don't think they will be featuring Josh, Anna, and their children until things start to calm down. Also, I think they will release a statement of some sort. When I scrolled through the comments I noticed they were still limiting them. I wouldn't be surprised if they, meaning David and Priscilla, release a statement similar to Jim Bob and Michelle's about Josh if they continue to get more messages and comments about his crime.

Eventually, I think they might feature Anna but I don’t think they will ever feature Josh again especially since David is a pastor.

I’ve been wondering if there is a trial, if they think pregnant Anna will garner sympathy but, then again, because it’s a CP case, I think they’ll consider it risky and think it’s best she not be questioned.

Also, I feel very conflicted about Anna. I can’t help but feel she’s an enabler, has put her kids at risk, but at the same time, I see her as a victim of Josh and someone who likely hasn’t received any compassion from fundie counselors  if she had told anyone about Josh’s bedroom requests of her. As a survivor, it makes me sad to think of what she may have been subject to. I think both can be true as she may be a victim and an enabler.

Edited May 8, 2021 by luv2laugh

[OrchidBlossom]

10 minutes ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

There is no way Josh's attorneys will let Anna testify. That would be a total disaster. No matter how much prep she'll get, Anna won't be able to give answers that help the defenses case out in any way. I can just see it now, Anna crying on the stand while the prosecutor shows her all this evidence of Josh's crimes while she is diligently saying, "he is a good Godly man who has a problem and needs Christian rehab and not jail".

As for Priscilla, the only event she posted was for Peter's birthday. I can see the Wallers posting more about their family. But, I don't think they will be featuring Josh, Anna, and their children until things start to calm down. Also, I think they will release a statement of some sort. When I scrolled through the comments I noticed they were still limiting them. I wouldn't be surprised if they, meaning David and Priscilla, release a statement similar to Jim Bob and Michelle's about Josh if they continue to get more messages and comments about his crime.

If they call Anna as a witness, I'll be trying to find out what law schools they went to to encourage everyone to avoid those. That's not even a rookie mistake, that's a "are you fucking kidding me with this did you attend a single class" mistake

[HarryPotterFan]

1 hour ago, Carrots said:

That is just insane. How does anyone think that is a great system?! How many children/mothers have died or been needlessly injured as a result.

Sorry, I just find that mind blowingly medieval. In my country it is a highly sought after course that requires years of training and yearly professional development.

 

Because Arkansas law makers are pro life. Which means not caring about outcomes during childbirth. Or something. Don’t get me started on how fucked up things are.

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Carrots said:

That is just insane. How does anyone think that is a great system?! How many children/mothers have died or been needlessly injured as a result.

Sorry, I just find that mind blowingly medieval. In my country it is a highly sought after course that requires years of training and yearly professional development.

 

Nurse midwives in the US are held to high standards and training.  Getting into nursing school is very competitive and specializing to be a nurse midwife is extra work and training.  Their preparation is rigorous.

Unfortunately in some states (such as Arkansas) there is second kind of midwife certificate that doesn’t require a lot of formal education. (There is an apprenticeship and some kind of standardized test.)  This is the course Jill pursued.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Carrots said:

So...you don't need a nursing degree to be a midwife and you don't need a law degree to be a judge.

What the hell?!

No wonder Michelle thinks the schoolhouse around the table is adequate. You don't actually need an education to do anything apparently? ?

It really depends on the state. Some states value education and training more than others.  

[marmalade]

1 hour ago, OrchidBlossom said:

If they call Anna as a witness, I'll be trying to find out what law schools they went to to encourage everyone to avoid those. That's not even a rookie mistake, that's a "are you fucking kidding me with this did you attend a single class" mistake

Yeah, that would be the dumbest decision ever. 

[ophelia]

 

2 hours ago, Candycane36 said:

Anna has trauma bonded with Josh. He has been lying to her for years, visiting strip clubs, and had at least 11 known affairs with Ashley Madison alone. I wouldn't be surprised if there were many more victims.  Josh is sneaky, and if he wanted to abuse his children, he absolutely would be able to do it under Anna's nose. I think Anna is afraid to have her kid's examined because she is afraid that they may find something, and Anna deep down knows he may be capable of it. She doesn't want to face the truth.  I'm  sure that Josh had did terrible things to Anna as well. However, Anna has the choice to leave, and she is choosing to stand by Josh. I think this decision will have major consequences for her and her children  years down the road.

I have to admit that I never looked into the details of the Ashley Madison scandal, because it happened when I was away from FJ for a few weeks. I was totally schocked when I read that there were at least 11(!!) affairs. Wow! So he is a notorious cheater. No big surprise if you think about it, but I'm still kind of negatively mesmerized.

And Anna stayed with him. I just can't. And now this. My heart breaks for the poor Ms.

[Aine]

2 hours ago, Expectopatronus said:

@OrchidBlossom Judges can be elected without law degrees? How does the court ensure that they know the law well enough to uphold it? Not snarking, I’m legitimately interested in how this works. 

John Oliver did a really good piece on judges, their qualifications, and the problems with electing them.

 

[hoipolloi]

2 hours ago, OrchidBlossom said:

Personally I am fond of the method in MA. The judges are appointed by the Governor, but must be approved by the Executive Council, who also have input in the selection process. By executive order, only properly barred attorneys who reside in MA can be put forward for consideration. The Massachusetts Bar Association collaborates with local bar associations and also offers opinions on who should be considered and on the candidates put forward. Although it is a "lifetime" appointment, there is a mandatory retirement at age 70 and a number of failsafes for judges to be removed in case of any misconduct.

My state has a similar process. A short list of people deemed qualified by the state bar and in good standing with that organization are forwarded to the governor who makes her or his selection.

Do we get some judges who turn out to be dingdongs and numpties? Of course, but by and large it's much better than electing judges, and there are mechanisms in place for removing or not renewing poorly performing judges.

[Gothard is a perv]

On 5/6/2021 at 11:04 PM, CinnaJen said:

Do you all remember Jared from Subway who was imprisoned on similar charges?  He was sentenced to 15 years and is still in prison.  It looks like they won’t consider parole until he’s served 13 years.  If Josh is found guilty he will likely spend a good amount of time away.  

Actually Jared was caught attempting to arrange sex with a minor. 

[Hane]

@EmCatlyn, knowing what I do about the level of education a person needs to be a CNM (certified nurse-midwife), the more enraged I am by the states that allow lay midwifery (such as Arkansas). Uninformed people too often lump lay midwives in with CNMs, something the CNMs do not deserve.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 hours ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

 now I can't help but wonder what other fundie families on here are discussed on FJ who have a son or daughter who acted "inappropriately because they were curious about the opposite gender". 

Why would you speculate on who else may be like this on the word of Jim Bob trying to minimize this whole thing?  If there is no evidence to think someone would do that beyond JB it's pretty shitty to make assumptions.

1 hour ago, ophelia said:

 

I have to admit that I never looked into the details of the Ashley Madison scandal, because it happened when I was away from FJ for a few weeks. I was totally schocked when I read that there were at least 11(!!) affairs. Wow! So he is a notorious cheater. No big surprise if you think about it, but I'm still kind of negatively mesmerized.

And Anna stayed with him. I just can't. And now this. My heart breaks for the poor Ms.

He didn't have 11 affairs.  I doubt there were 11 actual women clients in the entire database.  

[wendy-sparkles]

7 hours ago, purple_summer said:

And this is why more people (at least to me) are moving more towards universal salvation or at the very least “hell isn’t eternal torment” theology wise. I’ve heard people say “hell” is just separation from God which could just be here on earth (wedonthavetimetounpackallthat.gif), that it’s basically purgatory and temporary, or that it’s like Mormon “2nd place heaven”. Hell and the lake of fire are supposed to be two different places. 
Contrary to what people display openly, I don’t think most people really think through the idea of eternal hell. I remember being told it’s worse than anything I could ever imagine. That’s probably why so many people toe the forgiveness line-they/their loved one couldn’t possibly be so bad to end up in hell. 

hell being separation from god is official catholic doctrine 

from the catechism

"The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs."

[nelliebelle1197]

13 hours ago, SnarkyLawyer said:

In my state, they were allowed to consent to forensic exams, and other medical care, as well as make recommendations for foster care, etc., in child abuse cases. We used them, all of the time.

Mine too. That is the whole point. But in my state GALs are most often lawyers. Children have the right to a lawyer in all stages of a a dependency matter thus the reason for most GALs being lawyers. If the GAL is not a lawyer then a CASA advocate is appointed in addition.

Edited May 8, 2021 by nelliebelle1197

[FiveAcres]

8 hours ago, Candycane36 said:

Anna has trauma bonded with Josh. He has been lying to her for years, visiting strip clubs, and had at least 11 known affairs with Ashley Madison alone. 

Do you have a link for this? (I am not doubting you, but I followed the news somewhat when it broke, and I don't remember it being that many.)

ETA: I should have read to the end of the thread before posting the above. I like @nelliebelle1197's comment that there probably weren't eleven "real" women in the site. These cheater sites mainly seem to be a way of separating would-be adulterers from their discretionary spending cash. Put up some stock photos of attractive women, and you are good to go. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by FiveAcres

[nelliebelle1197]

5 hours ago, ophelia said:

 

I have to admit that I never looked into the details of the Ashley Madison scandal, because it happened when I was away from FJ for a few weeks. I was totally schocked when I read that there were at least 11(!!) affairs. Wow! So he is a notorious cheater. No big surprise if you think about it, but I'm still kind of negatively mesmerized.

And Anna stayed with him. I just can't. And now this. My heart breaks for the poor Ms.

Where are people getting the 11 affairs thing? Is there documentation or proof of that? I only recall the Ashley Madison membership and some dating profiles. 

18 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

Do you have a link for this? (I am not doubting you, but I followed the news somewhat when it broke, and I don't remember it being that many.)

ETA: I should have read to the end of the thread before posting the above. I like @nelliebelle1197's comment that there probably weren't eleven "real" women in the site. These cheater sites mainly seem to be a way of separating would-be adulterers from their discretionary spending cash. Put up some stock photos of attractive women, and you are good to go. 

That was my evil twin @HerNameIsBuffy but I totally agree with my evil twin, as you can see!

[Smash!]

This thread is moving too fast! 

@Smee Don‘t let anybody tell you you‘re a horrible mother for leaving your husband. It‘s the contrary. You are incredibly courageous. Your children will grow up with a mother that shows them that as a woman you don‘t have to put up with anything. It‘s the best you can do for your kids. 

[mpheels]

9 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

Speculation train coming: what if he was the Reddit law student summing up the hearing? That would explain how that person had access, especially if Jill was maybe attending. Wasn’t that law student finishing up a final? I want this to be true! 
 

But good for him. I hope they continue to move away from the cult and heal from the trauma. 

I thought the Reddit law student was an L2? If so, they are a year away from graduating. Also, the hearing zoom was open to the public, just required pre registration.

[formergothardite]

13 hours ago, Mela99 said:

Have any of the fundie institutions come out and condemned any of this? IBLP, the FRC, any of them? Any even slightly “famous” friends?

One of my friends just got blocked on Twitter by Ted Cruz for repeatedly tweeting the pictures of him with Smug.

The closest IBLP has gotten to addressing it is making a post on the Family Conference FB page about how believers are caught off guard when it comes to dark forces. They link to a video from 2020 where Gil Bates rants about how phones and computers are a way to bring evil into your life. I didn’t actually watch the entire video since Gil is painful to listen to, so he could have said a lot more. But I think this was their way of addressing it. Basically claiming they tried to warn people about the evil that computers can bring.