Botkin 3: Elizabeth Married!

[Howl]

On 8/17/2022 at 1:56 PM, Columbia said:

That Biblical Blueprints page has some wild stuff on it. This is their “mentoring checklist” for daughters:...

...If ever there was something designed to give someone a bad case of anxiety and OCD, this would be it. 

...and if ever there was a way to stunt the potential of a human being. It's grotesque, really, the emotional equivalent of foot binding. 

It fascinates me that one of the sisters is branching out to become a real estate agent and a Chamber of Commerce rep. There is nothing, absolutely NOTHING in the Duck Biologist's past SAHD proclamations that would have allowed for this. 

But, on the practical side, the offspring have to financially productive, because Geoff's intellectual pursuits aren't bringing home the bacon.  And likely there is an awareness that a single woman needs to be able to support herself to some degree. 

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Howl

[Columbia]

On 8/17/2022 at 3:11 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’m just glad Elizabeth is an older bride. Less kids to indoctrinate. 

I’m glad it’s not something akin to Maranatha Chapman, marrying them off young and the husband then grooming them appropriately. 
 

Geoff has churned out his fifth video this year, advising Joe Rogan to go find a rural community in Missouri in which to hide when the apocalypse rages. He must have figured out that TFG wasn’t watching the videos Geoff addressed to him  

I’m surprised that his video production rate has dropped so precipitously. After he was mentioned in the Washington Post (?) I would have thought he’d be churning out more and more content.

 

[CyborgKin]

He's only put one one video since that one (about the queen) and it's at least a month now.

[Howl]

This whole "bug-out from the city, you're only safe in rural areas when the apocalypse comes" perspective is crazy.  Cities are the places where resources are.  

No pregnancy announcement yet from Elizabeth? 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Howl

[gustava]

47 minutes ago, Howl said:

This whole "bug-out from the city, you're only safe in rural areas when the apocalypse comes" perspective is crazy.  Cities are the places where resources are.  

No pregnancy announcement yet from Elizabeth? 

 

 

 

Think they've actually consummated the marriage😁

[JermajestyDuggar]

I always assume the older ones get right to trying to make a baby. I wouldn’t be surprised if she tracked her ovulation so she could get the quickest results. 

[Columbia]

10 hours ago, Howl said:

No pregnancy announcement yet from Elizabeth? 

No marriage announcement yet. Last name is still the same on FB, nothing on  botkinsisters.com or Western Conservatory. It’s kind of sad that Geoff didn’t even release any videos mentioning or celebrating her wedding on his strange channel; he talks about his sons enough on there all the time, but has never specifically mentioned his daughters. It’s odd that there’s no trace of it anywhere. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Columbia
Typo

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 minutes ago, Columbia said:

No marriage announcement yet. Last name is still the same on FB, nothing on  borkinsisters.com or Western Conservatory. It’s kind of sad that Geoff didn’t even release any videos mentioning or celebrating her wedding on his strange channel; he talks about his sons enough on there all the time, but has never specifically mentioned his daughters. It’s odd that there’s no trace of it anywhere. 

I know her new husband is part of their group. But I really hope Elizabeth took “leave and cleave” to heart. And she is making a new life with her husband and Geoff has nowhere near the control he used to. Sort of like Sarah Maxwell. It’s not like these two women ran off with some liberal heathens. They married acceptable Christian males. But it makes me glad to think they might be slightly less under their fathers’ thumbs and can possibly make new lives if their own. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I know her new husband is part of their group. But I really hope Elizabeth took “leave and cleave” to heart. And she is making a new life with her husband and Geoff has nowhere near the control he used to. Sort of like Sarah Maxwell. It’s not like these two women ran off with some liberal heathens. They married acceptable Christian males. But it makes me glad to think they might be slightly less under their fathers’ thumbs and can possibly make new lives if their own. 

I agree, but I doubt Elizabeth got out as much as Sarah. She married someone, who is part of her group. I just hope Elizabeth and Rhys aren't living on the compound.

[JermajestyDuggar]

10 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I agree, but I doubt Elizabeth got out as much as Sarah. She married someone, who is part of her group. I just hope Elizabeth and Rhys aren't living on the compound.

Same. Maybe her brother and Audri showed her it’s possible to live off the compound and live your own life. 

[hoipolloi]

5 hours ago, Columbia said:

It’s kind of sad that Geoff didn’t even release any videos mentioning or celebrating her wedding on his strange channel

He didn't even congratulate her ova. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

4 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I agree, but I doubt Elizabeth got out as much as Sarah. She married someone, who is part of her group. I just hope Elizabeth and Rhys* aren't living on the compound.

*Reese. I apologize to everyone for spelling his name wrong.

[Howl]

16 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

And she is making a new life with her husband and Geoff has nowhere near the control he used to. Sort of like Sarah Maxwell.

 

16 hours ago, Columbia said:

It’s kind of sad that Geoff didn’t even release any videos mentioning or celebrating her wedding on his strange channel...It’s odd that there’s no trace of it anywhere. 

Remember emotional incest? Arrogant narcissist Geoff's stay at home daughters were there to serve his every need (except sexual).  Geoff probably experiences Elizabeth's marriage as a defection and a profound betrayal, although I'm sure he has zero ability to understand this. 

We'll see what happens with Anna Sofia. She's out and about as a realtor and Chamber of Commerce rep.  There WILL be guys who are very interested who aren't intimidated by Geoff.  That said, Elizabeth married someone within the general Botkin sphere of influence, so...

11 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

He didn't even congratulate her ova. 

Nominating this post for the FJ Hall of Fame. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Howl

[Bluebirdbluebell]

21 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

He didn't even congratulate her ova. 

I apologize, but what is this in reference to?

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I apologize, but what is this in reference to?

This excerpt from Kathryn Joyceʻs excellent book, Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement, explains the reference:

Quote

There were complications when Geoffrey Botkin’s first daughter, Anna Sofia, was born. The problems were physical—Anna Sofia’s mother, Victoria, could have died—and more esoteric, too....So as Botkin held his newborn daughter perfectly still in his cupped hands, he prayed to God for guidance: after having raised two older sons, how should he raise a daughter? He felt God move him to a specific prayer for the infant sleeping in his hands, a prayer for her body. He remembered baby girls are born with two ovaries and a finite number of eggs that will last them a lifetime. He placed his hand over his new daughter’s abdomen and prayed for Anna Sofia to be the “future mother of tens of millions.”  [Emphasis added]

If Anna Sofiaʻs ova were worth praying over at her birth, surely Elizabethʻs ova deserved to be congratulated upon her marriage.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

4 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

This excerpt from Kathryn Joyceʻs excellent book, Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement, explains the reference:

If Anna Sofiaʻs ova were worth praying over at her birth, surely Elizabethʻs ova deserved to be congratulated upon her marriage.

Thank You! but also 

Spoiler

[Columbia]

I have that video downloaded on my computer. The passage is from the very beginning of Training Dominion Oriented Daughters. The cover is maybe the most recognizable thing VF ever put out. In the very beginning of it Geoff goes on and on about how he prayed for AS’s husband, for “the legacy that would be joined with each of those eggs,” that she would marry young. It’s terribly sad to listen to this man whose only interest in his daughter seems to be her getting married and having children as soon as possible. 

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

16 minutes ago, Columbia said:

this man whose only interest in his daughter seems to be her getting married and having children as soon as possible. 

Since this hasn't happened yet, I guess God wasn't listening to the Duck Biologist or as Teri Maxwell said about her daughter Sarah's long season of singleness 'God withheld a husband'.

[Columbia]

It looks like they were invited back to speak at another NCFIC conference back in May. I haven’t listened to any of their talks yet, but maybe Elizabeth announced her engagement there. 
 

https://churchandfamilylife.com/resources/6257290006e19ecd30cbbb04

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, Columbia said:

I haven’t listened to any of their talks yet, but maybe Elizabeth announced her engagement there. 

She does, about 3-4 minutes into the talk. It starts with her prayer for single women, and then she acknowledges that sheʻs been talking about singleness for nearly 20 years and is finally getting married at age 34-35.

Havenʻt listened much beyond that but am not expecting content that is otherwise new & different.

[Columbia]

1 hour ago, hoipolloi said:

Havenʻt listened much beyond that but am not expecting content that is otherwise new & different.

There were a few interesting tidbits. They mentioned again that they were wrong to build their theology of singleness by basing it off of the Bible verses for married women, to which I can only say “no kidding, what were the adults surrounding you thinking?”

Theres the same warning against becoming a feminist or a career woman without any definition of what either of those looks like. 

Early in the talk they mention stay-at-home daughters (and they use that phrase) having a tendency to adopt a lifestyle that doesn’t involve a lot of service or evangelism, but then later they talk about Mary and Martha and how it’s okay for single women to own their own houses and have their own money. They really need to just come out and say where they stand on “stay at home daughters.” Also, how does one have their own house and their own money without being a (as yet undefined) career woman?

They mention that they used to have a really robust ministry of hospitality in their house, but that their father has had some health challenges over the last few years and haven’t been able to do that as much  I think that might explain why Geoff’s videos to Trump have dropped off significantly. I wonder if he might be dealing with long COVID. Better that than the vaccine microchip, I guess  

They also talk about how it’s okay for daughters to go to a different church than their families. They don’t mention anything that would indicate that they’re at a new church, but I wonder if they had Ben and Audri in mind. I also wonder how well that would practically go over if one of them tried. It would certainly be easier for a married woman following her husband’s leadership than for a single woman. Especially one who lives on the compound.

 

[Howl]

2 hours ago, Columbia said:

There were a few interesting tidbits.

These people.  "We were full of shit for decades, but now we believe that you can be unmarried and have a life, live in your own house and go to a church of your choosing as a thirty something, but we'll never apologize for our stunted lives and the advice we gave others." 

By the way, being a real estate agent IS A JOB AND A CAREER.  You have to get certified and everything. 

[Columbia]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

By the way, being a real estate agent IS A JOB AND A CAREER.  You have to get certified and everything.

AS even talked about getting certified as a realtor. They never define what a “career woman” is, so they never have to answer questions about how what they’re doing lines up with their definition. They would always toss around phrases like “chasing a career on Wall Street,” or “power suits and paychecks,” but I would guess that they believe you can be a “career woman” even if you’re not a high power broker or lawyer. Their job examples always sounded like cobbled together stereotypes from movies. 

I wish they would acknowledge some of the fallout from “So Much More” and “Return of the Daughters.” They have to know that Jasmine has completely repudiated it, and I’m sure they’ve been contacted by other girls and young women who were put in very vulnerable positions, or had their opportunities limited by that teaching. But they’ve never mentioned it, even when they do say they were wrong about some things in SMM. It’s like they don’t see how bad teachings can have consequences for other people that spill into their lives beyond bad theology. Ben recognized that and apologized generously and publicly. Why can’t they?

[Bluebirdbluebell]

The Botkin daughters probably aren't far enough out of the cult to apologize yet. I hope that neither of them live on the compound or anywhere near it.  I hope that they'll get to a place where they can deconstruct the harm that was done to them and they helped spread. 

3 hours ago, Howl said:

These people.  "We were full of shit for decades, but now we believe that you can be unmarried and have a life, live in your own house and go to a church of your choosing as a thirty something, but we'll never apologize for our stunted lives and the advice we gave others." 

By the way, being a real estate agent IS A JOB AND A CAREER.  You have to get certified and everything. 

They don't owe anyone, but themselves an apology for how their lives are going. I hope both of them can go to therapy. I think a therapist would set goals of forgiving themselves and being gentle with themselves.

They do owe an apology about the advice they gave to others and how that advice had an impact on other people. I feel for stay-at-home daughters, although I tend to think young marriage is worse. One of the worst things fundamentalism does is give young people (particularly women) the idea that marriage or living at home are the only options.

[Howl]

I hope the era of very young people writing books and blogging  with great authority that "this and that approach is absolutely and positively the only way" is over.  I'm talking about you, Joshua Harris (I Kiss Dating Goodbye) and the years of patriarchal SAHD drivel from Elizabeth/AS. 

I wonder if we're witnessing the slow decline of extreme fundamentalist patriarchy.  We witnessed the implosion of Vision Forum and IBLP seems to be on its last legs.  There are a lot of people deconstructing from fundamentalist/evangelical backgrounds. 

Scottie Brown seems to still be going strong, though. As you drill down a bit into his website, the beliefs become more defined and rigid.   If you want to know about those beliefs as defined by Scottie: A Declaration of the Complementary Roles of Church and Family. 

I'm wondering if Scottie is drawing a line between his own beliefs and where Geoff Botkin has gone with his political rants. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Howl