Botkin 3: Elizabeth Married!

[Coconut Flan]

Continued from here:

 

[hoipolloi]

Quote

@Columbia said: I hope that he is as good to her as Ben has been to Audri, and isn’t afraid to stand up to her father if it comes to that. 

Yes, and I hope that the fact heʻs been working at T-Rex for some years means they know each other well. 

And is Elizabeth wearing jeans in that engagement photo?!?

[sableduck]

I believe those are jeans.

And sure, why not. Elizabeth Botkin married. Sarah Maxwell engaged and wearing jeans and living on her own. Anna and Mary Maxwell in college.  
 

The Arndts need to step it up here to give me the trifecta of upheaval.

[thoughtful]

34 minutes ago, sableduck said:

I believe those are jeans.

And sure, why not. Elizabeth Botkin married. Sarah Maxwell engaged and wearing jeans and living on her own. Anna and Mary Maxwell in college.  
 

The Arndts need to step it up here to give me the trifecta of upheaval.

Arndt men - toss a washcloth, polish a pumpkin, fly in a penguin, present a ceremonial pair of white shorts to the woman of your choice! You are falling behind!

[anjulibai]

Holy shit snacks! First Sarah Maxwell, no Elizabeth Botkin! Wow! 

[JermajestyDuggar]

58 minutes ago, sableduck said:

I believe those are jeans.

And sure, why not. Elizabeth Botkin married. Sarah Maxwell engaged and wearing jeans and living on her own. Anna and Mary Maxwell in college.  
 

The Arndts need to step it up here to give me the trifecta of upheaval.

I think I’ve come to realize the only fundie family that won’t change anytime soon will be the Rods. Everyone else is now in the realm of possibility. I seriously won’t be surprised now if there’s a triple Arndt wedding this summer.

[GuineaPigCourtship]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I seriously won’t be surprised now if there’s a triple Arndt wedding this summer.

New theory just dropped. They've been waiting til all the children are of legal age and all will marry in a massive ceremony.  Empty nesters literally overnight!

[JermajestyDuggar]

Just now, GuineaPigCourtship said:

New theory just dropped. They've been waiting til all the children are of legal age and all will marry in a massive ceremony.  Empty nesters literally overnight!

They just need to find 13 single sisters who wear short white shorts and they’ll be all set! 

[pupper]

6 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

They just need to find 13 single sisters who wear short white shorts and they’ll be all set! 

 

6 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

They just need to find 13 single sisters who wear short white shorts and they’ll be all set! 

With one brother who loves penguins.

[Dominionatrix]

Wow, what is going on in fundieville?!

[Sarcastically spinster]

I guess one clarification I want to make since this is out there now (especially for the Botkins themselves since I know you read here).  

I'm not really a Botkin insider.  I've met some of them.  I know a lot of people who know them.  I'm very familiar with their circles.  And so, once in a while, in conversation with mutual friends, they come up, and sometimes things are casually mentioned that I end up sharing here if it seems appropriate and like it's public knowledge within their circles.  

I don't actively seek out information about their lives, and nobody is passing information to me about their lives to be shared with FJ.  

 

3 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

And is Elizabeth wearing jeans in that engagement photo?!?

The Botkins weren't ever actually skirts only.  They've been wearing jeans for a long time.  

[hoipolloi]

4 hours ago, Sarcastically spinster said:

The Botkins weren't ever actually skirts only.  They've been wearing jeans for a long time.  

Interesting. As I recall, in their heyday, they preached modesty and publicly wore skirts only.

According to this older "About " page from a previous incarnation of their website, AS is now about 39 and E is about 37. 

ETA: Thought to check the Wayback Machineʻs cache of prior versions of their website, and those ages may not reflect their true ages in October 2006:

Edited July 8, 2022 by hoipolloi
Adding info

[mango_fandango]

Their email address was damsels@visionarydaughters.com? Holy crap. 

[Petronella]

3 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Interesting. As I recall, in their heyday, they preached modesty and publicly wore skirts only.

According to this older "About " page from a previous incarnation of their website, AS is now about 39 and E is about 37. 

ETA: Thought to check the Wayback Machineʻs cache of prior versions of their website, and those ages may not reflect their true ages in October 2006:

Ah. It looks like someone updated their ages two years after it was written.

I know that if blogs and such had existed when I was young I probably would have embarrassed myself, so I don’t mean this to shame the young women they were. I say this to shame their father, whose bloviating style comes through loud and clear. “Share their family’s vision for cultural reformation”? “Working with their father on projects affecting family, church and state”?? These young people were being taught by a domineering parent to inflate and dramatize normal life. It’s just so silly. And people fell for it!

Apparently they “[discovered] new things every day about the beauty and power of the biblical home and family unit” and had “glorious and diverse opportunities” at home. Jeez, even people who choose homemaking and love it know that aspects of it are repetitive drudgery.

I love the way their interests/skills are stretched out. Instead of “music” or “piano and harp” it’s “orchestral harp,” “music theory and composition,” and “classical piano.” Yes, they need to understand a certain degree of theory to read music, but that doesn’t warrant a separate line-item for music theory. Going to church and having personal theologic beliefs doesn’t warrant “theology” in a bio. And what on earth is “the reconstruction of the west”??

Anyway, that was years ago and the sisters seem to have become more humble and mature. Good for them. I find it especially interesting that the wedding was kept un-public, even though the groom seems to fit in religiously. If they’d gotten married in their twenties it would have been broadcast and blogged as a perfect example of young womanhood blooming. I wonder who most wanted the privacy: Elizabeth, her husband, or if Geoff just didn’t care?

[CyborgKin]

OMG every time! I don't check in for a few weeks and THIS finally happens!!!    

Happy for Elizabeth.

And wait, Sarah's engaged and wearing jeans??? I need to get over to that thread stat!

(yeah I forgot she's already been seen in jeans)

Edited July 8, 2022 by CyborgKin

[Sarcastically spinster]

3 hours ago, Petronella said:

I love the way their interests/skills are stretched out. Instead of “music” or “piano and harp” it’s “orchestral harp,” “music theory and composition,” and “classical piano.” Yes, they need to understand a certain degree of theory to read music, but that doesn’t warrant a separate line-item for music theory.

To be fair, as a classically trained musician - I think this is nitpicking.  Orchestral harp is a different skillset and often even a different instrument from Celtic harp.  Music theory and composition is a completely different skillset from simply playing.  Most musicians are not composers.  Yes, musicians tend to need to know some music theory to play and read music, but that's a completely different thing from the level needed to be a good composer.  It's kind of like the difference between high school algebra and theoretical physics.  You technically could just say "I'm interested in math" and it would be the broader and a still correct term, but it's not actually pretentious to say that you have an interest in theoretical physics.  Since their family has actually produced a professional composer in Ben, I think it's fair to say they probably were not overstating or exaggerating by stating an interest in music theory and composition.  

I don't think this is a product of exaggeration or an attempt to make themselves more interesting, just a specification of the specific skillset and interests within the broader field.  I often specify that my musical training is classical, because otherwise people assume that I'm involved in more popular styles, and at the moment, I couldn't sing pop to save my life.  

What it may be, and this is the only thing that I would consider snark-worthy, is an attempt to clearly distance themselves from "worldly" styles.  Because, you know, things that were considered immoral and scandalous two hundred years ago are holier than what's currently mainstream, and it doesn't matter how much we sing about sex and stuff if we do it in Italian opera where nobody knows what's happening.  

[AnnaSofia]

8 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Interesting. As I recall, in their heyday, they preached modesty and publicly wore skirts only.

According to this older "About " page from a previous incarnation of their website, AS is now about 39 and E is about 37. 

 

ETA: Thought to check the Wayback Machineʻs cache of prior versions of their website, and those ages may not reflect their true ages in October 2006:

 

I know when they did their "Reclaiming Beauty" webinar they used a photo of E wearing a pair of jeans around the barn as an example of how even they could be lazy and unfeminine if not careful. There was a photo of AS probably wearing jeans (albeit with an apron over them) floating around the 'net years ago, so I think they wore them, but it went against their public stance on appearance.

I have their birthdays down as:

Anna Sofia Botkin - September 24, 1985

Elizabeth Grace Botkin -  August 19, 1987

But I can't seem to find any solid verification of those, so take it for what it's worth.

[Howl]

5 hours ago, Petronella said:

“Share their family’s vision for cultural reformation”? “Working with their father on projects affecting family, church and state”...And what on earth is “the reconstruction of the west”??

I'm reading this with a different perspective than I would have even a year ago.  This is Geoff's version of Seven Mountains Dominionism.   The 7 Mountains vision is for Christians (their kind of Christians) to rule in seven spheres of influence: family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business and government. 

It's becoming increasingly apparent that the Trump administration allowed 7 Mountains Dominionist types  to acheive influence in media, business and government to a terrifying degree.  Seven Mountains Domionists share many common goals with Catholics who have power and influence in DC.  Think Leonard Leo and the Federalist society who put Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett on SCOTUS to eviscerate Roe v Wade, which they have done. Think of the bat-shit fundamentalists running for office and in office in this country. Think about the staggering amounts of dark money going into elect fundamentalist Christian candidates.  Wing nut Boeber (R-Crazy) had a LOT of money in her war chest going into her recent primary against a centrist Replublcant.  Boebert won with a huge ma

That some states are working on legislation to allow them to put forth an  "alternate" slate of electors is attributable to this. 

Geoff doesn't have much influence beyond his patriarchal bubble, but, as noted,  I don't see his beliefs in the same way. 

 

[Petronella]

1 hour ago, Sarcastically spinster said:

To be fair, as a classically trained musician - I think this is nitpicking.  Orchestral harp is a different skillset and often even a different instrument from Celtic harp.  Music theory and composition is a completely different skillset from simply playing.  Most musicians are not composers.  Yes, musicians tend to need to know some music theory to play and read music, but that's a completely different thing from the level needed to be a good composer.  It's kind of like the difference between high school algebra and theoretical physics.  You technically could just say "I'm interested in math" and it would be the broader and a still correct term, but it's not actually pretentious to say that you have an interest in theoretical physics.  Since their family has actually produced a professional composer in Ben, I think it's fair to say they probably were not overstating or exaggerating by stating an interest in music theory and composition.  

I don't think this is a product of exaggeration or an attempt to make themselves more interesting, just a specification of the specific skillset and interests within the broader field.  I often specify that my musical training is classical, because otherwise people assume that I'm involved in more popular styles, and at the moment, I couldn't sing pop to save my life.  

What it may be, and this is the only thing that I would consider snark-worthy, is an attempt to clearly distance themselves from "worldly" styles.  Because, you know, things that were considered immoral and scandalous two hundred years ago are holier than what's currently mainstream, and it doesn't matter how much we sing about sex and stuff if we do it in Italian opera where nobody knows what's happening.  

Good point! I guess I just don't believe that they were seriously studying composition or music theory. I think they were playing instruments well and maybe playing around with composing, and the bio is bigging things up. That's what I meant.

[Sarcastically spinster]

13 minutes ago, Petronella said:

Good point! I guess I just don't believe that they were seriously studying composition or music theory. I think they were playing instruments well and maybe playing around with composing, and the bio is bigging things up. That's what I meant.

Since Ben is composing professionally (and not just within their spheres), we know that there was study of composing to a serious level within their family.  I see no reason to think that they were exaggerating on that.  Ben, at least, studied it seriously, and since they were in a family where that was clearly encouraged and it was considered very acceptable as a feminine pursuit, I'm guessing they also studied it seriously.  

[Columbia]

28 minutes ago, Howl said:

This is Geoff's version of Seven Mountains Dominionism.   The 7 Mountains vision is for Christians (their kind of Christians) to rule in seven spheres of influence: family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business and government. 

To the best of my understanding, the Seven Mountains Mandate is primarily New Apostolic Reformation (think Bethel or maybe even Hillsong) and started when “God told” a few different church leaders that these were the seven mountains of culture they should take over. NAR leans very heavily to charismatic and Pentecostal churches and of course it’s full of prophecy, as seen in that weird movie about Trump.

Geoff’s line of thought would be more in favor of Calvinist theonomy which seems to focus more on establishing Old Testament style Biblical law in the highest levels of government, (conquering the culture is just a nice byproduct of that) and of course has no prophecy because they’re cessationists. Most theonomists would say that the NAR approach is top down (establish government authority first) while theonomy is bottom up (change families and culture first and then establish rule) though as we’ve all seen, someone like Geoff or Voddie or Doug Wilson has no problem grabbing power when it presents itself. Doug Wilson’s creeping takeover of Moscow is an excellent example; there’s no bottom up approach there. What practical difference there is between the two camps is probably debatable. I can imagine the NAR types embracing Calvinist theonomy as a means to an end, until they realize that the end would mean the theonomists executing them for heresy. But theonomists would never openly work with NAR churches/organizations.

Between the two streams of thought, NAR seven mountains stuff is getting much more common in generic evangelical churches, while theonomy would probably be a little more distasteful to your average evangelical because the conversations always seem to boil down to whom can you execute for what miniscule sins? 

[hoipolloi]

16 minutes ago, Petronella said:

the bio is bigging things up

What we evil secularists call "padding oneʻs resumé"

 

[Black Aliss]

18 hours ago, sableduck said:

The Arndts need to step it up here to give me the trifecta of upheaval.

DM me if they do. I'll be out shopping for new ice skates because hell has surely frozen over.

[Triplet3]

6 minutes ago, Black Aliss said:

DM me if they do. I'll be out shopping for new ice skates because hell has surely frozen over.

Luke Arndt is in a relationship (unless he and his girlfriend broke up). It came out a while ago - check out the unmarried fundies and Arndt threads.

[Bethella]

2 hours ago, AnnaSofia said:

I have their birthdays down as:

Anna Sofia Botkin - September 24, 1985

Elizabeth Grace Botkin -  August 19, 1987

But I can't seem to find any solid verification of those, so take it for what it's worth.

That’s close to what I have-

Anna Sofia- September 26, 1985 (the difference is probably based on how quickly they posted birthday stuff on social media one year)

Elizabeth- I had 1987 but no specific date