[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh&Anna 28:Does anyone wonder how many times JB has phoned up Mike Huckabee?

[Bethy]

18 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

What has a vasectomy to do with his possible pedophilia? 

Yes, he should have sought help for his inappropriate desires instead of succumbing to the urge to watch porn.  But that’s a different subject.  He was told all his life that pornography and masturbation and sex with anyone other than your wife is wrong.

He was also told that many children is good.  He may not have wanted the responsibility, but he cared about the credit and status of being a father of many children.

I would think that he may have felt that he was, at least, doing his Godly duty as a Quiverful parent. (The only duty there being to father the children his wife would raise as Godly Christians.  Supporting them doesn’t always seem a concern among the Quiverfull.)

I didn't much watch the show, but I seem to remember reading (here, most likely) that Josh and Anna put Quiverfull in their vows - that they would have as many children as possible and not do anything to prevent, or something like that. If that's how it actually went down, then he couldn't get snipped, publicly or privately, because that would be breaking his marriage vows.

(Which is, y'know, different from being on Ashley Madison, or downloading illegal CSA materials.)

[freealljs]

Have any of you heard the latest news about Josh wanting bail?  He's claiming that he's not a flight risk, because he's too famous.

https://www.tmz.com/2021/05/04/josh-duggar-requests-bail-not-flight-risk-child-porn-charges/

I really hope that the bail is so high, that even JB will reconsider posting it. I think that Josh doesn't like being behind bars. 

ETA: If I'm breaking any rules, mods, please delete. 

Edited May 5, 2021 by freealljs

[Chickenbutt]

1 hour ago, QuiverFullOfCondoms said:

When one pleads “no contest”, it means you are not pleading guilty, but you do acknowledge that if the case were to go to trial there is enough evidence for you to be found guilty.
 

Is a No Contest plea the same as an Alford Plea?
 

[SassyPants]

14 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Yes, he was told many things as a child.  We were all told many things as children and we're still responsible for our behavior as adults.

The vasectomy was an aside about how he had agency and while choosing not to get help he also choose to keep having children.  No one was saying that would stop his pedophilia.  

I think most of these folks inability to, as adults, question anything of importance that’s been crammed down their throats, tells me all I need to know about JBs level of power and control. And I’m not talking about wearing pants. I’m talking about Joe and Josh pumping out kids that we all know if left to their own devices, they would likely be unable to support. Or Jana, a 31 YO uneducated, unemployed woman who lives at home and sleeps with her siblings who are decades younger. These are adults who believe and act as if they have zero autonomy or choice as to the direction of their lives. It is all kinds of effed up.

[QuiverFullOfCondoms]

34 minutes ago, Freejin said:

I have zero experience with any dark web stuff. Is it possible that a person could download CP without knowing what it is or is that just not possible?  I’m assuming you need something other than Google chrome. 

The dark web is very similar to the normal internet as in you know exactly what you are getting and you have to actually look for it. It’s not like you open a dark web browser and drugs and CP are right there. You need to search for it. In the case of CP you’d likely also have to join a community.

11 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

To get on the dark web you need a specific browser, yes.

It doesn't have to be the dark web, though. I have seen people say they accidentally downloaded CP through sharing clients like limewire, though I don't know how often that really happens. And this wouldn't be accidental, but according to this NYT article (which has some fairly graphic descriptions) facebook messenger "was responsible for nearly 12 million of the 18.4 million worldwide reports of child sexual abuse material" in 2018.

That same article talked about one of the sites on the dark web too:
 

?

 

Way back in 2000-2005 it would be easy for their to be a few nudes of 16-17 year olds in a large batch of porn/nudes. Prepubescent CP would be a lot rarer. I’d say nowadays it hardly happens because P2P has really gone out of style.

10 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I think most of these folks inability to, as adults, question anything of importance that’s been crammed down their throats, tells me all I need to know about JBs level of power and control. And I’m not talking about wearing pants. I’m talking about Joe and Josh pumping out kids that we all know if left to their own devices, they would likely be unable to support. Or Jana, a 31 YO uneducated, unemployed woman who lives at home and sleeps with her siblings who are decades younger. These are adults who believe and act as if they have zero autonomy or choice as to the direction of their lives. It is all kinds of effed up.

If they weren’t famous they’d be like the Keller family or old school Duggar’s, living in a trailer without AC/heat or a tiny home, on public assistance, shopping at thrift stores and barely scraping by.

Edited May 5, 2021 by QuiverFullOfCondoms

[socalrules]

I don’t think people need to worry so much about every little thing means Josh is going to skate. Josh got a good attorney. Big deal. Lots of people get the best attorneys and still go to prison. Assistant US Attorneys are the best of the best. Their positions are highly coveted. I can guarantee you that the Assistant US Attorney on this case is not intimidated or concerned about the status of Josh’s attorney. Everything that has happened so far is completely routine. I fully expect Josh to be granted bail because that’s what happens in these type of cases. There is nothing special about Josh’s case other than we at FJ are interested in it. I have no doubt the judge does not really care one way or another about Josh and just wants to get the job done properly to make sure there is less of a chance of a successful appeal. 

Also, someone asked about grand juries. They can indict someone and then that indictment can be held for even months. It’s not like you have to arrest the next person the next day. 

Just remember that court cases can be extremely slow. The work performed behind the scenes is extremely boring and nothing like you see on TV. With covid, it’s harder to get fast court dates as so many cases were delayed, courtrooms of the right size for a jury trial with social distancing are hard to find and everything is just so much slower. Don’t be surprised if Josh is released on bail and we don’t hear anything else for months. It’s normal. 

Edited May 5, 2021 by socalrules
Double posting, losing posts, I am a mess today.

[Jess]

5 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

Is a No Contest plea the same as an Alford Plea?
 

 No contest means your not saying your guilty or innocent your just agreeing the prosecution has enough evidence to convict you. In a Alford plea you are actively saying your innocent. Alford pleas are very very very rare and seen most often in cases where someone has for a hypothetical example lost the original trial served twenty years of a life sentence, won an appeal for a new trial and then been offered a plea deal of twenty years where they would get out now if they agree. So, they agree to the deal and the court let’s them maintain innocence, because if these circumstances. Courts are not suppose to knowingly let innocent people plead guilt so there are only those very limited circumstances where Alford is appropriate.

[Unicorn28]

What's the chances of Josh getting off free and clear? And being more smug and above the law then before. If Josh fights this and it goes to trial. Couldn't the prosecution bring up Josh's Gothard religion and the whole little girls and toddlers can cause sexual desires in men and the whole Nike thing? If they can't bring up Josh's molestation. 

[Jasmar]

I’m a worrier by nature, so the news of Josh’s attorney gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. These (white male Christian) assholes get away with everything, it sometimes seems. 

I hope the cost of all this bankrupts the family (Michelle and JB). Seriously doubt that happening, though, because I don’t doubt their ATI/IBLP friends will cough up plenty of love offerings.

[Mela99]

[WarriorJane]

"Gelfand's billing will be astronomical. However, he's not licensed to practice in Arkansas, so will working with the two local Arkansas attorneys.  So three attorneys cranking out billable hours"

It's Federal Court.  He needs to be admitted to practice in the USDC (which he is), Western District of Arkansas.  If he's not registered in that District court he has to petition the Court to apoear pro hac vice.   I'm not saying he won't use cocounsel, just that he can appear for Josh himself.   And yes, it will be crazy expensive. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

I assume the only way Bill Gothard are would be brought up would be if JB and Michelle were called to testify.  Is it more likely they would be called as a witness for the prosecution or the defense. How much the judge would allow that as a line of questioning remains to be seen. 

[OrchidBlossom]

42 minutes ago, Freejin said:

I have zero experience with any dark web stuff. Is it possible that a person could download CP without knowing what it is or is that just not possible?  I’m assuming you need something other than Google chrome. 

To be fair I don't have first hand experience, but I know a lot of techy people and I've read about it. You do need a special browser to open the dark web (like Tor, I think, being the most popular). And as someone said, you still need to know what you're looking for. When you access the dark web the evil version of Clippy doesn't pop up and say "it looks like you're searching for drugs, want some help?" 

People on the dark web are often more difficult to trace, but not impossible by any means.

In either the dark web or your average, non-horrific porn search, you *could* accidentally download some CSA materials without knowing it, but it would be uncommon to do so. As someone mentioned, it's that particular problem is decreasing. Most of the time if you want CSA materials, you're opening the dark web and you know of a site or community. You have to send some to prove you're legit. You know in like, old old times, how thieves would often share secrets with each other to create a bond of trust? It's a super gross twisted version of that. So the most likely scenario is that Pest either intentionally received CSA materials from someone he knew after mentioning his interest somehow or (more probably) he went and specifically downloaded Tor or similar, searched for CSA, "traded" images to get into a community, and then had access to whatever community he was in. 

However there *are* other scenarios in which he could have accessed it, including just using an average browser. And there is a very outside chance he had it without knowing. It isn't probable though, IMO.

Also especially if he went to the dark web, it's probably not the kind of thing your employee just downloads without you noticing, there's quite a few steps.

[eljayem]

9 hours ago, Lgirlrocks said:

Also Jill was the poster child for them. Until she married she did everything her parents asked and more. Her siblings loved her and she loved kids. She seemed to do what her parents asked without question. She was the one that no one thought would ever wear pants, get a nose ring, send her kids to school, and not be quiverful. She was the snitch. 

Jill in her Q&A videos has also spoken about boundaries for the safety and health of herself and her family, and she also said she hasn't been to the big house in two years. At first I thought it was for mental and emotional health but now I wonder if that has to do with the raids that happened in 2019, if they suspected something like this would happen at some point.

[Mela99]

If it comes out that everyone in the family knew about this since November of 2019, how in the hell are they going to defend themselves? DimWit and Meech especially.


I truly and deeply hope this financially destroys them and they spend the rest of their lives paying the price for their complicity

[Rachel333]

16 minutes ago, QuiverFullOfCondoms said:

Way back in 2000-2005 it would be easy for their to be a few nudes of 16-17 year olds in a large batch of porn/nudes. Prepubescent CP would be a lot rarer. I’d say nowadays it hardly happens because P2P has really gone out of style.

I saw a comment just the other day where someone said that in the 2000s they were trying to download music on limewire and when they opened the file it was CP with very young children. I agree that type of sharing is much less common now though.

[Antimony]

8 minutes ago, QuiverFullOfCondoms said:

Way back in 2000-2005 it would be easy for their to be a few nudes of 16-17 year olds in a large batch of porn/nudes. Prepubescent CP would be a lot rarer. I’d say nowadays it hardly happens because P2P has really gone out of style.

More tidbits via the You're Wrong About podcast! This seems to be the case -- apparently, when the feds do find people with pre-pubescent CSA content, it's like 90% the same footage they've been arrested people over for years, the rate of video recycling is really high. But there is a surge in content of teenagers. It clearly seems that content of younger children is rarer and requires a lot more intent to acquire in this manner. (This is why the specification of "under 12" makes me feel like they'll be hard pressed to prove it was an accident.)

It's also worth noting that some courts consider a video to be multiple images -- makes sense, it literally is but some define this by frame rate very literally and some just kind of estimate it as "each image is 75 frames", so the numbers of "images" found might be a different thing depending on who is reporting that number. Does anybody know if each count is per image, or if they've just started one count, or if they've just grouped it all into a set of 2 counts (possession and receiving)?

It looks like there are estimates of there being about 33,000 pedophiles doing "organized" online activity in the US but I don't know that we can know Josh is one of these -- he could be doing "unorganized" collection, or not part of one of these groups formally. 

[OrchidBlossom]

9 minutes ago, Unicorn28 said:

What's the chances of Josh getting off free and clear? And being more smug and above the law then before. If Josh fights this and it goes to trial. Couldn't the prosecution bring up Josh's Gothard religion and the whole little girls and toddlers can cause sexual desires in men and the whole Nike thing? If they can't bring up Josh's molestation. 

He claims that he's been in contact and cooperation with the feds since 2019. Which means that he's almost certainly told them his "an employee did it" bullshit and they still had enough evidence to move forward. IMO, it isn't looking great for him but its hard to say before the trial starts.

They can't bring it up themselves, probably (maybe they could argue relevance but I doubt it) but if his religion comes up in his case, they could potentially discuss those aspects (this is not legal advice)

[QuiverFullOfCondoms]

11 minutes ago, Jess said:

 No contest means your not saying your guilty or innocent your just agreeing the prosecution has enough evidence to convict you. In a Alford plea you are actively saying your innocent. Alford pleas are very very very rare and seen most often in cases where someone has for a hypothetical example lost the original trial served twenty years of a life sentence, won an appeal for a new trial and then been offered a plea deal of twenty years where they would get out now if they agree. So, they agree to the deal and the court let’s them maintain innocence, because if these circumstances. Courts are not suppose to knowingly let innocent people plead guilt so there are only those very limited circumstances where Alford is appropriate.

And just want to add to that that no contest appears to be mostly used for minor cases. At least in Florida it’s usually used in first appearance (bond) court for very minor offenses like trespassing and open container (aka hanging out outside the 7-11 or drinking beer at a bus stop). It allows the person to plead no contest, the judge will withhold adjudication or give time served and the person is free to go about their life without having to deal with it again. I see it most often with the frequent flyers, the homeless alcoholics.

[HeartsAFundie]

This is going to sound like a stupid question, but if Josh somehow did get out on bail, how can he go back to living with Anna and the Mkids like he's demanding to do, if the judge has ruled he can't be around minors while awaiting trial?  Are there any loopholes around that?  Can he really go back to live with his family like nothing ever happened despite the judge's orders?  

Edited May 5, 2021 by HeartsAFundie

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Here are the actual documents

I would just like further explanation of this statement: “continued to support his family through lawful employment.”   What “lawful employment” has he pursued and in what way has it contributed to the support of his family? ?

Has he been paid by JB to fix houses to be flipped?  Does he drive for Uber or Lift?  Does he clean swimming pools or walk dogs? ?

[meep]

"to care for his pregnant wife" - doesn't this family constantly argue and scream and cry over the fact that a fetus is a CHILD??? It's like by this request they are admitting the fetus in not yet in fact a child. Ohhhh the irony. 

[luv2laugh]

3 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

The high-powered and expensive legal defense team tells me that the Federal government has a strong case against Josh -- this is not a matter of "clicking on the wrong pop up by mistake." 

It will be interesting to see if any religious issues come up in the defense's arguments.

Wouldn't it be ironic if JB's & M's criminally negligent decision to eschew real treatment for the younger Josh years ago on account of their toxic religion gets brought up as justification for why he was unable to deal with his ongoing mental disorder as an adult?

Where can we find out who his legal team is? It’s sad that JB is likely using money from the victims to help.

Update: I read the documents. Did they know since 2019 what he was being investigated for?

Edited May 5, 2021 by luv2laugh

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

Where can we find out who his legal team is? It’s sad that JB is likely using money from the victims to help.

A link was posted a little bit ago.

[Rachel333]

3 minutes ago, HeartsAFundie said:

This is going to sound like a stupid question, but if Josh somehow did get out on bail, how can he go back to living with Anna and the Mkids like he's demanding to do, if the judge has ruled he can't be around minors while awaiting trial?  Are there any loopholes around that?  Can he really go back to live with his family like nothing ever happened despite the judge's orders?  

The document made it sound like that's what the judge recommended but that the actual terms will be set tomorrow.