Dillards 89: I'd Watch a Netflix Xpecial and so Would My Mom

[Travelfan]

41 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

I think Yeats may have been thinking of black and white thinking when he wrote:

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst   // Are full of passionate intensity." (The Second Coming -- William Butler Yeats) 

 

This is exactly where I am!  I came from a conservative Christian background and now I am an atheist. I know see both sides of everything and it kind of sucks because I have no strong feeling on anything. I have no strong convictions. I have my opinions, but I can also see value in how the “other” side feels. I mostly stay completely out of politics because I can see both sides of any issue.  I grew up in a environment where people took a strong stand for what they believed and now I feel foolish for having been part of that. I’m not about to go to the other side and do the same thing again.  So I stay in the middle with no strong convictions either way. 

[Maggie Mae]

6 hours ago, Foudeb said:

Semenya has a male DSD condition. This is biology, not opinion. She has a male cariotype, male sexual organs, and went through male puberty. And this despite having been socialised as a girl. She is not a third sex. She is a male person with a genetic disorder that affected various parts of her body. 

No. She has an intersex condition.  I don't have time to give the complete lecture on how sex determination and differentiation happens in utero and how and when ALL the various differences happen and the flexibility that our bodies have, but if you are actually interested, read this wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_differentiation_in_humans 

The development of the reproductive system is particularly interesting, as it's clear that many different genes on the Y chromosome have to be 'switched on' at the right time by specific amounts of different hormones such as testosterone and DHT to get the complete development of vas deferens and seminal vesicles.  It's also important to note that they haven't studied the determination process off women like they have men. Gee, I wonder why that is. 

tl;dr, biology is more that xx and xy

tl;dr 2 intersex doesn't mean that someone is male. She is not a "male person" she is a woman. 

 

2 hours ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

This is just willfully misunderstanding any upper year high school biology course, or first year university biology course. I suggest checking out a textbook at your local library.

It's beyond willfully misunderstanding upper year high school biology, it's basically nonsense. 

[Jinder Roles]

@Foudeb You’ve been incredibly transphobic on this thread. Semenya has not disclosed any details about herself so you’re speculating on an intersex person’s body, which is extremely disrespectful. There is no such thing as a “third sex”. Also, categorizing intersex people as a fluke or a minority set of “disorders” that don’t  challenge your imaginary biological binary is very problematic. 
 

I’m not understanding how you are pro-women but not pro trans-women when trans women in particular face horrendous levels of violence (more than cis-women). 

Unless you’re black (I suspect not from how you talk) then you can’t say what is and isn’t racist to black people. The way you’ve talked about Semenya (and the way CAS and the IAAF dealt with Semenya) is so fucking racist for reasons already explained. If a bunch of white women didn’t continuously cry about losing to Semenya, she wouldn’t have been violated, stripped of her titles and barred from running. 

Please free yourself from the shackles of TERF-y bioessentialist logic. It’s not a good look.
 

But I’m not going to go back and forth with you any longer. 

[AprilQuilt]

What's the TERF situation in the USA, just by the by? I understood that it was not a Thing like it's suddenly become here in the UK, but is it spreading? Where did it even come from? For the record, I find it fucking deplorable.

[closetcagebaby]

2 hours ago, AprilQuilt said:

What's the TERF situation in the USA, just by the by? I understood that it was not a Thing like it's suddenly become here in the UK, but is it spreading? Where did it even come from? For the record, I find it fucking deplorable.

Oh, the bigotry of anti trans people is definitely not an only UK thing. 

[BernRul]

There definitely is a "gender agenda " or whatever term other posters used. Its the agenda of forcing gender roles on newborns just because they were born with certain genitals.

I just had a baby. As soon as everyone found out she's a girl, I got sent a bunch of frilly pink shit (I hate pink). A doctor jokingly asked my husband if he bought a shotgun (a joke i hate for many reasons). Someone mentioned boyfriends. I keep hearing how pretty she is (to be fair she totally is).

What i actually know about my baby at this point:

She learned how to smile. 

She loves to eat and gets into a shark feeding frenzy when hungry. 

She loves kicking, tries  to hold up her head, and has a strong grip. She is active and physical. 

None of her actual personality traits or baby habits indicate any gender, except the physical activity,  which would be traditionally gendered as male if you had to assign a gender to that (which i think is dumb regardless). Yet no one notices that my baby is strong and active. Instead she's "pretty."

I find it ironic that TERFS claim to care about girls and feminism, but fail to realize that loosened gender roles, particularly the acceptance of gender fluidity, non binary, and trans people, will decrease sexism against girls. 

One of my favorite things about GEN Z is their disdain for traditional gender roles. Yeah it might be scary or weird to us older generations (jeez as a millennial  I'm so not used to being "old") but it gives me hope for my kid's  future and the world they'll grow up in. 

[Marserin]

3 hours ago, closetcagebaby said:

Oh, the bigotry of anti trans people is definitely not an only UK thing. 

Right-wing folks are pretty anti-trans but don't identify as feminist so I hesitate to call them TERFs. The queer spaces I inhabit are pretty trans-friendly although I know there are queer spaces that are less trans-friendly. I would say that many US lefty folks are pretty trans-friendly, neutral, or evolving. Although, I have seen some mis-gendering of a certain famous trans-woman (seriously, not a fan but don't misgender her.)

[closetcagebaby]

1 hour ago, BernRul said:

There definitely is a "gender agenda " or whatever term other posters used. Its the agenda of forcing gender roles on newborns just because they were born with certain genitals.

I just had a baby. As soon as everyone found out she's a girl, I got sent a bunch of frilly pink shit (I hate pink). A doctor jokingly asked my husband if he bought a shotgun (a joke i hate for many reasons). Someone mentioned boyfriends. I keep hearing how pretty she is (to be fair she totally is).

What i actually know about my baby at this point:

She learned how to smile. 

She loves to eat and gets into a shark feeding frenzy when hungry. 

She loves kicking, tries  to hold up her head, and has a strong grip. She is active and physical. 

None of her actual personality traits or baby habits indicate any gender, except the physical activity,  which would be traditionally gendered as male if you had to assign a gender to that (which i think is dumb regardless). Yet no one notices that my baby is strong and active. Instead she's "pretty."

I find it ironic that TERFS claim to care about girls and feminism, but fail to realize that loosened gender roles, particularly the acceptance of gender fluidity, non binary, and trans people, will decrease sexism against girls. 

One of my favorite things about GEN Z is their disdain for traditional gender roles. Yeah it might be scary or weird to us older generations (jeez as a millennial  I'm so not used to being "old") but it gives me hope for my kid's  future and the world they'll grow up in. 

Okay I’m extremely hormonal due to shark week but this made me tear up. This is the sweetest thing I’ve ever read. You’re already an amazing mom and your kid is super lucky to have you in her corner!

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, BernRul said:

There definitely is a "gender agenda " or whatever term other posters used. Its the agenda of forcing gender roles on newborns just because they were born with certain genitals.

I just had a baby. As soon as everyone found out she's a girl, I got sent a bunch of frilly pink shit (I hate pink). A doctor jokingly asked my husband if he bought a shotgun (a joke i hate for many reasons). Someone mentioned boyfriends. I keep hearing how pretty she is (to be fair she totally is).

What i actually know about my baby at this point:

She learned how to smile. 

She loves to eat and gets into a shark feeding frenzy when hungry. 

She loves kicking, tries  to hold up her head, and has a strong grip. She is active and physical. 

None of her actual personality traits or baby habits indicate any gender, except the physical activity,  which would be traditionally gendered as male if you had to assign a gender to that (which i think is dumb regardless). Yet no one notices that my baby is strong and active. Instead she's "pretty."

I find it ironic that TERFS claim to care about girls and feminism, but fail to realize that loosened gender roles, particularly the acceptance of gender fluidity, non binary, and trans people, will decrease sexism against girls. 

One of my favorite things about GEN Z is their disdain for traditional gender roles. Yeah it might be scary or weird to us older generations (jeez as a millennial  I'm so not used to being "old") but it gives me hope for my kid's  future and the world they'll grow up in. 

But it’s gender critical feminists who agree with you. That there should be no need to “change” what sex you identify with, or for kids to take potentially dangerous drugs or have life altering surgeries or lose their fertility because they don’t fit in a “gender” box of activities, preferences and traits. That “Kate” should be free to enjoy sports and loose T’s and working on trucks WITHOUT being told that’s only for boys. 

[RainbowSky]

38 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

But it’s gender critical feminists who agree with you. That there should be no need to “change” what sex you identify with, or for kids to take potentially dangerous drugs or have life altering surgeries or lose their fertility because they don’t fit in a “gender” box of activities, preferences and traits. That “Kate” should be free to enjoy sports and loose T’s and working on trucks WITHOUT being told that’s only for boys. 

You're right. In the idea that anyone should be able to do whatever they're interested in without being told that "only X do that!" or whatever.

One of my kids liked to get dirty and gross as a toddler. Was always running, etc. People kept saying "Oh, he's all boy!" I was baffled and asked how they know he's got a penis because he's dirty. That's never made any sense to me. A girl was by far the most likely to get into shit anyway.

 

At the same time, trans goes beyond that. They don't feel comfortable in their body and what it's doing/has done/looks like on top of the possibility of gender roles told to them being "wrong" 

[neurogirl]

@Mama Mia Yes exactly what @RainbowSky said. I'm not trans, so I can't presume to know, but the way that clicked with me is that I know I'm a woman. I knew I was a girl as a child. My love of dolls or dirt had nothing to do with that. I just KNEW. Now imagine KNOWING, knowing viscerally like I assume you know now that you are a woman, that instead you knew you were a boy/man. Despite your body's appearance or what people keep telling you, you actually are a boy. Wouldn't it be pretty freaking traumatic? No one is having gender affirming surgeries on a whim or because someone told them girls don't play with trucks/boys don't play with dolls. I don't understand the biological underpinnings, but just like I knew from forever that I was a girl then a woman and that I was attracted to men, I can imagine how someone could feel differently - despite the body they were born in.

[Smee]

5 hours ago, RainbowSky said:

At the same time, trans goes beyond that. They don't feel comfortable in their body and what it's doing/has done/looks like on top of the possibility of gender roles told to them being "wrong" 

This 1000x this. I am not a "girly girl" and never have been. I play soccer, never wear makeup, hate shopping, couldn't care less about fashion or shoes, am interested in how things work and getting dirty and DIY jobs and other traditionally "masculine" pursuits. But I've never doubted that I am a woman, or felt deeply uncomfortable with having a female body.

[meep]

It's the same handful of users who turn up predictably on the hour anytime this comes up. It is a bit tiring. 

I will say - someone else said this in a Dillard thread recently and I agree - there is still time for Jill and Derrick to change their tune. When I was fresh out of fundamentalism, my morals were more or less unchanged. I did not leave because things seemed so wrong (I wish I could say I did, but it wouldn't be the truth). I left because I learned the interpretations of the Bible were all wrong. It would take years for me to admit to myself that I had lost my faith completely. It took years for me to unravel the damage done - to start voting with society's more helpless in mind, to reach out to people different than me, to accept LGBTQ+ people. It was a process. It was all throughout my 20s. So I am not saying to cut Jill & Derrick a break or to count on anything. But maybe give a little space for the possibility that they can still keep changing because it's not a one and done thing. It's a journey. 

[bertnee]

On my journey away from conservative evangelical thinking starting in the early 00s, I started as a baby feminist. I grew up in an evangelicial penecostal religion which had a lot of issues but thankfully not as deep or as problematic as full fundie. But despite that, it wasn't fair that...(spoiler cut for length)

 

Spoiler

 

• Girls always had to wear dresses/skirts to church but there were no rules for guy attire
   
• Girls being policed for modesty with the goal of preventing guys for thinking sinful thoughts
   
• I wanted to go to college and have a real career. I didn't want to be a SAHM or, at best, a childcare worker for some church daycare until I had my own kids.
   
• I hated and continue to hate that the story of Sodom & Gomorrah was upheld as a story against homosexuality and in support of Lot's excellent behavior...when in reality, the man offered up his DAUGHTERS to the mob of angry rapists. WTF. That's what the lesson should have been about.
   
• That when an unmarried teenage couple in our church got pregnant, they were expected to marry asap and she was removed from all activities and not allowed to be in youth group or volunteer in the nursery or be in the choir, while he...experienced no social consequences whatsoever. Even got to continue on as part of the worship band every Sunday.
   
• The pastor preached against Harry Potter and other fiction books. Every October, instead of doing youth group for Wednesday 'church' all the middle schoolers and teens had to sit in the 'grown up' service to listen to him preach against Halloween, Disney, many many fiction books, and spread other myths related to "Satanism infiltrating our schools"- some of them I believed at the time but as a voracious reader who had read many of the books he was preaching against...I knew they didn't say what he claimed they said.

 

 

And way more, but those always stick out to me.

I could "get" those issues because they affected me. Eventually I could "get" LGB-issues, even though they didn't affect me, because I had a friend at school who came out and wasn't a bad person, so why would a god send them to hell? He didn't choose to be gay anymore than I chose to have a major crush on a different guy at school. I also read books with gay characters and saw TV characters who were gay. (Hello Marco from DeGrassi, and Jack and Will from Will & Grace)

I still didn't get "transgender". But what helped was (drum roll please) listening to what actual transgender people had to say instead of what people who didn't know any trans people thought. Reading trans books/stories. Watching shows with characters or documentaries with people who were trans (not Jazz, it wasn't around at the time and I feel weird about kids being on long-running reality shows like that, regardless of the topic). I also tried...empathy! I had never questioned for one minute that I wasn't my assigned gender. Imagine if I didn't feel that comfort/knowledge that what I look like to the world matches how I feel inside. That would really suck. Also taking women's studies courses in college and learning about the gender construct.

All this is to say, I think Jill/Derek can evolve, many people have done it! His comments in the past were deeply bigoted and gross, and did not speak at all to "wanting to call out TLC for exploiting a child". He hasn't apologized publicly or posted anything that would make me think he's changed on this. I don't think we should applaud them and declare they are now woke liberals (lol) but I am happy there have been some steps away from that fundamentalist thinking. 

I think they (and anyone who wants to) can grow. Right now they are in the "things that directly impact me" stage. And it honestly probably just started because Derek's beliefs are that he's supposed to be in charge of his wife and family yet Jim Bob was the one calling the shots.) Jill benefits from being "allowed" to wear pants and choose her own styles. Jill and Derek benefit from the boys being allowed to go to real school. The boys will benefit from it, too. The whole family benefits from Jill and Derek choosing to delay/stop having children, particularly Jill since the first two births were traumatic. Jill (especially) and Derek benefit from real therapy. I hope they continue growing. I guess I will just wait and see.

[viii]

16 hours ago, BernRul said:

Yet no one notices that my baby is strong and active. Instead she's "pretty."

THIS. I don't have children myself, but I have three nieces and a nephew. I am always sure to compliment my nieces on things that have nothing to do with girly shit like you're so beautiful! Instead I'll say things like "oh, you're so brave when you try that new food!" or "You are really creative with the way you colour!"

Personalities and traits are far more important than gender or looks. 

[Alisamer]

14 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

But it’s gender critical feminists who agree with you. That there should be no need to “change” what sex you identify with, or for kids to take potentially dangerous drugs or have life altering surgeries or lose their fertility because they don’t fit in a “gender” box of activities, preferences and traits. That “Kate” should be free to enjoy sports and loose T’s and working on trucks WITHOUT being told that’s only for boys. 

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of trans people here. (I'm not trans, so my understanding comes from years of seeing posts and videos and the struggles of people who are - and I welcome anyone trans to correct me if I got any of this wrong.) 

Nobody goes through years and years of counseling, medical care, multiple surgeries, etc... often a decade-long or more process requiring lifelong medication and care and costing tens of thousands of dollars... because they prefer dolls over trucks (or vice versa). They go through all that difficult, painful (both mentally and physically) work because it is necessary for them. They literally feel like they were born in the wrong body. That every time they look in a mirror, they see the wrong body. That everyone who looks at them sees the wrong body. It's like they are trapped. And as they reach puberty, suddenly their body is even less and less correct. There's a reason the suicide rate among trans people is high. 

People who are diabetic take insulin because their bodies don't make it correctly. People who are bipolar or have some other mental health issues take medicine to correct the imbalance of their brain chemicals. People whose thyroid gland doesn't work correctly take medicine to correct that. People who want to get pregnant but whose bodies don't make the right mix of hormones might take medicine to correct that and sustain a pregnancy. When my mom was going through menopause, she was given hormone replacement therapy to replace the hormones her body was no longer making. Any time anyone is born with or develops a malfunctioning organ, they are given treatment to correct that problem.

Why is there such a stigma against trans people getting the medication they need to correct their chemistry so their bodies and their minds are in harmony? Or about people who feel they are neither gender expressing themselves or doing whatever is needed to make their bodies present they way they prefer? 

Tons of people who aren't trans do things to make their bodies present the way they prefer them to, and nobody bats an eye. 

Also:

Quote

Kids cannot consent to puberty blockers or sex surgeries.

I disagree on puberty blockers. Puberty blockers are temporary, and can greatly help trans kids with their self-esteem. I'd rather a kid go on blockers for a few years and change their mind later than not be allowed to go on them and suffer mentally for all that time. 

Plus puberty blockers aren't just for trans kids, more and more kids (girls especially) are experiencing precocious puberty and needing those medications. Eight or nine-year-old girls shouldn't have to be thinking about wearing bras and having periods, IMO. And according to something I recently read about just that - those medications are super incredibly expensive!

 

My go-to compliment for babies is "what a cutie!" because it works for both boys and girls and is true. If I'm seeing an infant for one minute sitting in a carrier asleep that's about all I'm going to be able to comment on anyway. I do try whenever possible to give more neutral gifts to kids of all genders. 

 

I am also amazed at how far Jill has come, really. She and Derrick have a lot farther to go, IMO, but she's already miles from where she started, and where the rest of her family is dug in. And Derrick said all those terrible things, but he's been in law school since then and said himself it's been eye-opening. Hopefully he's being challenged about bigoted things and learning a lot, and discussing and sharing that with Jill. 

If I had to go hang out with a Duggar, I'd probably choose Jill, frankly.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

17 hours ago, BernRul said:

None of her actual personality traits or baby habits indicate any gender, except the physical activity,  which would be traditionally gendered as male if you had to assign a gender to that (which i think is dumb regardless). Yet no one notices that my baby is strong and active. Instead she's "pretty."

Fwiw when my kids were that little my boys got, "he's so beautiful" just as much as my daughter.  Not even handsome....beautiful.  And "what a pretty baby" about the boys as well.

I am not discounting there are huge problems with girls being valued for their aesthetic and I definitely noticed it when they were older.  There's really only so much to say about a baby that young so the default is about how pretty and sweet they are.  

And fwiw all through childhood the boys were told how good looking they were as much as my daughter (a teacher even noted it in an IEP report for one), although they stopped using words like beautiful and stuck to more masculine compliments.  I still get that about them....two of mine stopped by my office and met some coworkers and one later told me how nice they seemed.  The other five told me how good looking they are.  I'm just saying shallowness where people get comments on their looks is something guys deal with all the time too.

One of my sons works in a grocery store and not a week goes by where at least a couple of strange women don't tell him how handsome he is.  It's something people feel comfortable commenting on.

Edited May 7, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

I used to be confused about trans women competing in women’s sports.  Mainly because my trans friend and I rode bikes for fun and would get all competitive and she beat me every time. I now realize it was because she had only just started hormone therapy.  I discovered when hormone therapy is completed there is no unfair advantage.  I educated myself and changed my opinion.  I’m happy I’m able to change.  Fuck TERF.  And fuck that traitor Caitlyn Jenner.

[BernRul]

17 hours ago, closetcagebaby said:

Okay I’m extremely hormonal due to shark week but this made me tear up. This is the sweetest thing I’ve ever read. You’re already an amazing mom and your kid is super lucky to have you in her corner!

Oh my god thank you that was so nice. 

[Jinder Roles]

I just wanted to add that not all trans people go through medical transition or take hormones. And not all trans people are binary trans people (that is trans-women or trans-men). Trans-ness is expansive. 

I've developed my own opinions first and foremost by listening to my trans friends and then by doing my own research on gender, decolonization, anti-blackness, queerness, desirability politics etc. 

I strongly believe in centering the most marginalized of us first and foremost. 

[Alisamer]

22 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

I just wanted to add that not all trans people go through medical transition or take hormones. And not all trans people are binary trans people (that is trans-women or trans-men). Trans-ness is expansive. 

I've developed my own opinions first and foremost by listening to my trans friends and then by doing my own research on gender, decolonization, anti-blackness, queerness, desirability politics etc. 

I strongly believe in centering the most marginalized of us first and foremost. 

I agree. People who feel they are neither gender should be able to do (or not do) whatever they please to make their bodies look the way they prefer them to look. 

Why are people so concerned about what other people do (or don't do) with their bodies?

[sableduck]

I notice Derick’s IG post wished his mom and Jill a happy Mother’s Day with no mention of his mother in law. ?

[Flossie]

I've learned over the years that parents want to hear that their babies are attractive enough to not be called trolls, but they'd really like to hear more.  Pointing out that the baby looks just like one parent or another usually only gives one parent props.  If you're just meeting the baby for the first time, look for other things to remark on.

For newborns, it's difficult if they're just sleeping.  Remarking on their size can be problematic, but usually parents want to hear about how big their baby is.  Then you say how content baby is like it's all because their parents are the only reason they're able to sleep.  Point out obvious things like their hair, if they have any.  Admire their tiny fingers, complete with fingernails.  Silly, but still special.  Nicely rounded head?  Remark on it.  It probably houses a brain that is destined for great things.  Such cute ears, and that button nose, made of pure adorableness.  Those tiny eyelashes and barely-there eyebrows?  Hold me back so I don't dissolve in a puddle of adoration right over the baby.

If baby is awake, comment on how cuddly they are, or how they are so wonderfully active.  They're learning the very basics of moving their body, unless they're distressed from being too cold, too much light or noise, diaper rubbing them, etc.  Or maybe they're hungry.  Parents:  You'll figure it out, and if you need to ask, there's a lot of people who can help you.

There is so much promise and pontential with babies, it's inspiring.  They could go anywhere and do anything.  It's a huge responsibility and privilege to parent them.  Let's give them every chance and help them and their parents whenever we can.

[breakfree]

Something I think Derek should be given credit for that I haven't seen mentioned is that he said in one of the early Q&A videos that if speaking to a trans person he WOULD USE their preferred pronouns. 

I'm not a moron. I know this doesn't mean he has stopped thinking that they are really not whatever he's calling them and he probably still thinks they're deluded and hell bound. But despite this I think this is a huge step forward past his tweets where he did misgender Jazz. 

I agree with the people who have said I'm willing to give these two more room and time to change at this point because they've shown they can and because I think they've also shown a genuine desire to both think critically and do their best for each other and their kids. I suspect their views and actions will evolve further before they are done.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

22 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

Why are people so concerned about what other people do (or don't do) with their bodies?

And that is the question at the root of all of this.  I understand society having an interest in medical procedures to minors, a conversation which should be driven by medical professionals, but there is a lot of bigotry being cloaked in medical concern.  

I could not care less about sports, but for those who do I think that's a valid conversation which again, should be driven by the facts from medical professionals.  I am familiar with the controversy of transwomen in the MMA world and I don't understand why those arguments can't be settled with medical tests.  The bone structure, density, etc.  They can objectively measure capabilities to see if there is an inherent advantage or not, to me that's an argument that shouldn't be based on anything but empirical data.  

But to your question, I wish I knew.  Why on earth do people care what other consenting adults do in their bedrooms?  I'd like to know that, too.