Dillards 89: I'd Watch a Netflix Xpecial and so Would My Mom

[Sullie06]

1 hour ago, artdecades said:

Right. But there are a few thing at play here. 
 

1. her mother laughingly said she would rape her child with a foreign object and didn’t see an issue with it. let’s not mince words, this is what she was describing 
2. Jazz’s body belongs to Jazz. She is the only one who should be making these decisions. If her mom didn’t think think she was mature enough for such a procedure she shouldn’t have let her minor child have it. I personally don’t think minors should have this surgery for this reason and others, but I know many disagree and I am not here to argue that. 
3. Iirc Jazz had some pretty serious complications following the procedure. Her issues with dilation could have pointed to her experiencing those complications but instead of taking her pain seriously her mom joked about sexually assaulting her. 
4. I think exploiting minors for fame and money is by default abusive behaviors. Whether it’s the Duggars, Jazz’s parents, or any of the many shows on TLC. Jazz was not able to consent or understand what her fame would bring. Her parents failed to protect her. 

No, I agree with you. My comment was based on my belief that this is not a surgery that should be performed on minors. I have never been a fan of Jazz's parents personally. While I love their belief's, if theory, I believe they also used their child for fame and money. Jazz did not need to grow up in the spotlight. 

[Foudeb]

2 hours ago, Jinder Roles said:

(e.g: Caster Semenya, a cis-het athlete who naturally produces more testosterone than her peers. She was punished for this by IAAF because they're racist and anti-black as fuck!). 

No, Semenya is male. She (I understand she goes by she/her) is XY, has testes, and went through male puberty, meaning higher bone density, more muscle mass, higher lung capacity, higher red blood cell count etc. And produces male levels of testosterone. 

It would be unfair to bar her from competing as she is a remarkable runner, so the international Olympic committee compromised by allowing her to compete if she lowers her testosterone (by going on the pill for instance - this is reversible). It is not an ideal solution but neither is it a punishment. She has done nothing wrong. And neither have her biologically female co-contestants. 

https://www.worldathletics.org/news/press-release/questions-answers-iaaf-female-eligibility-reg

Frankly I would refrain from unfounded accusations of racism. Not when there are plenty of examples of actual racism out there. 

[closetcagebaby]

10 minutes ago, Foudeb said:

No, Semenya is male. She (I understand she goes by she/her) is XY, has testes, and went through male puberty, meaning higher bone density, more muscle mass, higher lung capacity, higher red blood cell count etc. And produces male levels of testosterone. 

It would be unfair to bar her from competing as she is a remarkable runner, so the international Olympic committee compromised by allowing her to compete if she lowers her testosterone (by going on the pill for instance - this is reversible). It is not an ideal solution but neither is it a punishment. She has done nothing wrong. And neither have her biologically female co-contestants. 

https://www.worldathletics.org/news/press-release/questions-answers-iaaf-female-eligibility-reg

Frankly I would refrain from unfounded accusations of racism. Not when there are plenty of examples of actual racism out there. 

So what do you think other trans people have done wrong? Or what do you make of people who self identify as trans? Do you think they don’t exist or what?

[nelliebelle1197]

3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Agreed and the same as non-controversial medical decisions like contacts.  I wasn't going to pay for my kid's contacts until I knew he was mature enough to care for them properly and follow whatever contact care to keep his eyes healthy.  Until that time he had glasses.  

I don't know anything about their customs, just that they were different societies and cultures and their social and religious beliefs can't be lumped together any more than you could lump all of Europe, Asia, or modern day American's into one belief system.

The Two Spirit People. Some native american cultures recognized five genders.

https://indiancountrytoday.com/archive/two-spirits-one-heart-five-genders

[artdecades]

5 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

The Two Spirit People. Some native american cultures recognized five genders.

https://indiancountrytoday.com/archive/two-spirits-one-heart-five-genders

There is no “Native American culture”. There are hundred of different tribes with different beliefs. Two spirit is a political identity created at a conference 30 years ago. It is completely a modern idea and was created to be a modern concept. 

[Foudeb]

1 hour ago, closetcagebaby said:

So what do you think other trans people have done wrong? Or what do you make of people who self identify as trans? Do you think they don’t exist or what?

I do not believe Semenya identifies as trans. Please provide a link for this and I will happily stand corrected. 

I have made no comment on this thread about self identification into the opposite sex. 

Neither have I said or implied that anyone does not exist. 

I have therefore downvoted your comment as I believe it may have been malicious. 

[closetcagebaby]

2 minutes ago, Foudeb said:

I do not believe Semenya identifies as trans. Please provide a link for this and I will happily stand corrected. 

I have made no comment on this thread about self identification into the opposite sex. 

Neither have I said or implied that anyone does not exist. 

I have therefore downvoted your comment as I believe it may have been malicious. 

Okay but you’ve said basically that you believe in biological essentialism - that your chromosomes are the defining factor. So where does that leave people who identify otherwise? Would you characterize their feelings as false, mental illness, what?

[Foudeb]

I'm very uncomfortable with the way trans rights activists weaponise intersex conditions, yes. People with a DSD already face many social taboos. They just don't need being othered on top of that. 

How would you define biological essentialism? Millions of female embryos get aborted due to their sex, as observed in utero. Millions of female children are subjected to genital mutilation and child marriage - because of their biology, not their gender identity. Even in our cushy Western lives, fathers earn more after they have kids, mothers earn less. For the same careers. What is the point of denying that sex exists, and matters? You cannot even begin to start fighting the injustices I listed above if you pretend not to understand who is subjected to them, and why. 

I care about my fellow women and girls. I want my daughter to live in a better world, where women are not discriminated against. Where having the ability to bear a child is celebrated and not used as an excuse to murder or mutilate. For that I make no apology. It's actually the reason I joined FJ in the first place - to mock fundies who favour their penis holders over their women and girls. 

Happy to elaborate further on any good faith question you may have. Feel free to DM as well. 

I'm terms of sources I trace a lot of my thinking to Beauvoir's the Second Sex, although it is a bit sad that it should still be so relevant today. 

[nelliebelle1197]

1 hour ago, artdecades said:

There is no “Native American culture”. There are hundred of different tribes with different beliefs. Two spirit is a political identity created at a conference 30 years ago. It is completely a modern idea and was created to be a modern concept. 

You are saying that Native American groups did not have cultures? And I used a plural, by the way. You misread what I wrote.

Did you read that article from an indigenous news wire?

28 minutes ago, Foudeb said:

I do not believe Semenya identifies as trans. Please provide a link for this and I will happily stand corrected. 

I have made no comment on this thread about self identification into the opposite sex. 

Neither have I said or implied that anyone does not exist. 

I have therefore downvoted your comment as I believe it may have been malicious. 

She is also not male, which you did state. She is intersex and was assigned female birth because she had girl parts.

Quote

 

46 XY DSD

Semenya has a hormone disorder causing her to naturally have a higher level of testosterone—the condition being categorised as “46 XY DSD”. In women referred to as “46 XY DSD”, the most common intersex condition among female athletes, the presence of a Y chromosome causes the development of testes. These do not descend from the abdomen but do produce testosterone. However the receptors for testosterone are abnormal, with the result that the individual develops as female with a vagina, but no ovaries or uterus. Circulating testosterone may have no biological effect in the case of complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS), or some effect in partial AIS.

 

 

[closetcagebaby]

18 minutes ago, Foudeb said:

I'm very uncomfortable with the way trans rights activists weaponise intersex conditions, yes. People with a DSD already face many social taboos. They just don't need being othered on top of that. 

How would you define biological essentialism? Millions of female embryos get aborted due to their sex, as observed in utero. Millions of female children are subjected to genital mutilation and child marriage - because of their biology, not their gender identity. Even in our cushy Western lives, fathers earn more after they have kids, mothers earn less. For the same careers. What is the point of denying that sex exists, and matters? You cannot even begin to start fighting the injustices I listed above if you pretend not to understand who is subjected to them, and why. 

I care about my fellow women and girls. I want my daughter to live in a better world, where women are not discriminated against. Where having the ability to bear a child is celebrated and not used as an excuse to murder or mutilate. For that I make no apology. It's actually the reason I joined FJ in the first place - to mock fundies who favour their penis holders over their women and girls. 

Happy to elaborate further on any good faith question you may have. Feel free to DM as well. 

I'm terms of sources I trace a lot of my thinking to Beauvoir's the Second Sex, although it is a bit sad that it should still be so relevant today. 

You didn’t answer any of my questions about actual trans people. 
 

I completely agree with you regarding women’s rights. Like you said, in the US, we have to deal with pay gaps, domestic violence, etc. But that doesn’t have anything to do with transgender people, who are subjected to their own set of violence and prejudice, plus in the case of transwomen sexism as well.
 

I do take issue with you making the ability to bear children the most essential quality of being a woman - where does that leave infertile women or menopausal women or women with bunk uteri like me? 

[Jinder Roles]

6 hours ago, Foudeb said:

No, Semenya is male. She (I understand she goes by she/her) is XY, has testes, and went through male puberty, meaning higher bone density, more muscle mass, higher lung capacity, higher red blood cell count etc. And produces male levels of testosterone. 

It would be unfair to bar her from competing as she is a remarkable runner, so the international Olympic committee compromised by allowing her to compete if she lowers her testosterone (by going on the pill for instance - this is reversible). It is not an ideal solution but neither is it a punishment. She has done nothing wrong. And neither have her biologically female co-contestants. 

https://www.worldathletics.org/news/press-release/questions-answers-iaaf-female-eligibility-reg

Frankly I would refrain from unfounded accusations of racism. Not when there are plenty of examples of actual racism out there. 

She is a woman. She was literally assigned female at birth. And she did not go through „male puberty“. I doubt you have enough information to comment about the intimate details of her life and body. 
 

Because of her condition, it’s actually impossible to determine how much effect the testosterone has on her body (her receptors aren’t standard). And testosterone isn’t a miracle hormone that determines wins. 

The testing was done without her consent and information about her health was widely circulated without her consent. 

And yes racism plays a huge role. If you understand the modern construction of womanhood then you understand that there’s no way an institutional body can call a black woman a “male” and it not be racist. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Jinder Roles

[Maggie Mae]

10 hours ago, Foudeb said:

No, Semenya is male. She (I understand she goes by she/her) is XY, has testes, and went through male puberty, meaning higher bone density, more muscle mass, higher lung capacity, higher red blood cell count etc. And produces male levels of testosterone. 

No, you are wrong. She was assigned female at birth. 

Certain bodies (black bodies, especially) are never allowed to be female. Think about all the horrible "jokes" and "memes" that the Q-"people" make about Michelle Obama.  The claims that she wasn't female, that she was masculine, that she was trans.  Semenya identifies as a woman and, as far as I know, doesn't discuss her medical history. She's been picked apart in the media for at least a decade now. She worked hard, she had a medical conditions, and she was fast. You know who else has anatomical abnormalities? Michael Phelps. If someone was to design a body that could swim fast, it would have a remarkable amount of similarities to his.  Double jointed ankles. Feet that are bigger than average for his height.  Joints that are extra flexible and possibly hypermobile. Shorter legs in proportion to his torso and shorter than average for his rather tall height. Disproportionately large chest and lung capacity. 23 gold medals and no covert super secret medical testing. 

So the conditions of his birth are fine, according to the Olympics.  

But apparently when a black woman is born with the ability to run "freakishly" fast, it means that she is dehumanized and subject to medical testing without permission and treated to misgendering, privacy violations, and wild speculation about what her genitals look like. 

[Foudeb]

10 hours ago, closetcagebaby said:

You didn’t answer any of my questions about actual trans people. 
 

I completely agree with you regarding women’s rights. Like you said, in the US, we have to deal with pay gaps, domestic violence, etc. But that doesn’t have anything to do with transgender people, who are subjected to their own set of violence and prejudice, plus in the case of transwomen sexism as well.
 

I do take issue with you making the ability to bear children the most essential quality of being a woman - where does that leave infertile women or menopausal women or women with bunk uteri like me? 

I fully agree women's rights have nothing to do with trans rights and therefore do not understand your line of questioning. 

Women are distinct from men. That's how women are discriminated against. I too struggled with infertility until two years ago - I fully sympathise with that struggle. It was harrowing for me personally and my story is one of the happy ones, with a good ending, other people have it far worse.

But potential fertility has nothing to do with female foetuses being aborted, female infants being murdered, female children being mutilated and raped. Even rich world employers don't bother asking if you can procreate - or even want to, not everyone does - before paying one sex 20% less than the other. 

So saying that people are "assigned a sex at birth", as if it were a random thing, makes no sense. Not only is it factually untrue, sex is observed in utero and onwards, it is extremely dangerous for women and girls - it makes the risks we share sound like a collection of random coincidences. You fight sexism, but how do you go about fighting random occurrences that are totally unlinked to each other? 

[Foudeb]

3 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

But apparently when a black woman is born with the ability to run "freakishly" fast, it means that she is dehumanized and subject to medical testing without permission and treated to misgendering, privacy violations, and wild speculation about what her genitals look like. 

Semenya has a male DSD condition. This is biology, not opinion. She has a male cariotype, male sexual organs, and went through male puberty. And this despite having been socialised as a girl. She is not a third sex. She is a male person with a genetic disorder that affected various parts of her body. 

If you are implying that this is something that affects all black women - that is racist AF. Genetic disorders affect a tiny minority of the world population and I have not seen any evidence they are more prevalent in any one ethnic group. Equating a niche medical condition with a huge swathe of people based on their skin colour is Wrong. 

I fully agree the way she was treated is not acceptable - she had to submit to a forced gynaecological examination early in her career as well. This is a good example of the dehumanisation people born with an intersex condition go through and it is not OK. 

It would have been awful for anyone but I think it's even worse for Semenya, who by all accounts sounds like a pretty wonderful person. I believe she invested a lot of time and effort to help the undeserved community she was born to after becoming famous. Bad experiences feel even worse when they happen to good people. 

[Smee]

I’d almost managed to forget about the TERFs on FJ *sigh*. The phrase “assigned female at birth” doesn’t mean “arbitrarily assigned female at birth” ?No intersectional feminist is claiming that it does. “When you hear hooves, think horse, not zebra” is a perfectly reasonable way for doctors, midwives and new parents to operate, and I’ve never met a trans person who was angry at the doctor who delivered them for writing the “wrong” thing on the paperwork. But as more evidence emerges later and it becomes clear that something or someone is categorised in the wrong place, it’s reasonable to re-categorise. I can say I’m a British-born Australian without it meaning the initial determination of British citizenship was made arbitrarily.

Anyway, I’ve said it before re: the Dillards but for the sake of the joshgate 3.0 people catching up - Jill and Derick may remain fundie-lite with bigoted views, but my hope is less for them than it is for Israel and Sam. At what, six? Israel has probably been exposed to a broader range of views than Mackynzie has at twice his age, and he’s also probably already getting an understanding that he will one day be allowed to make up his own mind about things. He has parents who have openly disagreed with each other about theology and Dad didn’t pull the “headship” card (they talked about different views on Young Earth Creationism in one video). J&D* mightn’t be okay with him being gay, but in public school and later in college (which they’ve said they will encourage) he’s bound to come across some peers who are not cis-het-Christians, or who have parents who aren’t, and then he’ll have to reconcile those abstract views about hell with real live people he’s shared a meal or a classroom or a sports team with.

*As an aside, can these people find some new letters? J&D = Jill & Derick, JD = John David, J.D. = Jsomething Duggar or Jill Dillard. 

[nelliebelle1197]

2 hours ago, Foudeb said:

Semenya has a male DSD condition. This is biology, not opinion. She has a male cariotype, male sexual organs, and went through male puberty. And this despite having been socialised as a girl. She is not a third sex. She is a male person with a genetic disorder that affected various parts of her body. 

If you are implying that this is something that affects all black women - that is racist AF. Genetic disorders affect a tiny minority of the world population and I have not seen any evidence they are more prevalent in any one ethnic group. Equating a niche medical condition with a huge swathe of people based on their skin colour is Wrong. 

I fully agree the way she was treated is not acceptable - she had to submit to a forced gynaecological examination early in her career as well. This is a good example of the dehumanisation people born with an intersex condition go through and it is not OK. 

It would have been awful for anyone but I think it's even worse for Semenya, who by all accounts sounds like a pretty wonderful person. I believe she invested a lot of time and effort to help the undeserved community she was born to after becoming famous. Bad experiences feel even worse when they happen to good people. 

You are wrong on all this. She was born intersex and brought up as a girl. She is neither male nor  female biologically. She has women’s organs and men’s organs. Where did you get your information?  Because there is not a single article that says she is male. She is an intersex person. I don’t want to shame this woman by writing out her body parts here but she is not a man on the outside.

We as a community cannot tolerate transphobia on here anymore than we tolerate racism, homophobia or any other type of bigotry.  All forms of bigotry are equally awful and unacceptable.

[Smee]

I don’t know much (anything) about Semenya, but this is making me wonder if there were champion athletes in the past who had similar conditions that may have influenced their athletic abilities, only no one knew because there was no reason (or capability) to do genetic testing. Certainly there have been plenty of professional athletes who never went on to have children, so how would anyone know beyond the external genitalia?

[MaryOrMartha]

So sorry to change the subject, but do we know if it really was Jill who was present in the zoom?

[nelliebelle1197]

15 minutes ago, Smee said:

I don’t know much (anything) about Semenya, but this is making me wonder if there were champion athletes in the past who had similar conditions that may have influenced their athletic abilities, only no one knew because there was no reason (or capability) to do genetic testing. Certainly there have been plenty of professional athletes who never went on to have children, so how would anyone know beyond the external genitalia?

There are intersex people all around you and you just don’t know it, so I am sure there are others in athletics.  Heck, the town librarian when I was growing up was intersex (my grandmother was friends with her mom; it was not town gossip as far as I know!). 
 

The point is though that the way we look at gender is so black and white when human development is nothing but black and white. And we let gender play too much of a part of shaping our identity.

2 minutes ago, MaryOrMartha said:

So sorry to change the subject, but do we know if it really was Jill who was present in the zoom?

No.

[closetcagebaby]

56 minutes ago, MaryOrMartha said:

So sorry to change the subject, but do we know if it really was Jill who was present in the zoom?

No - you can change your name on zoom to whatever you want. I could log in as “I Hate Josh” or “Barack Obama” if I wanted. 

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

On 5/5/2021 at 4:59 AM, Foudeb said:

Biological sex very much is a binary. It's sperm or egg. No human has ever produced "smegg". Having an intersex condition (technically it's called a disorder in sexual development) does not make you a third sex and many intersex people consider it an insult to be categorised that way. Just like being born with one arm when most people have two does not make you a whole different category of human being. Every human being, alive or dead, has both a biological mother and a biological father. It's actually one of the few things we all have in common, along with the fact we will all die at some point. 

I do think the Dillards deserve massive credit for taking some distance. Sounds like it was only motivated by money, not principles, but even just coming to the realisation that they don't have to be part of the dog and pony show, procreate for the cameras and deny their kids an education is *huge*

This is just willfully misunderstanding any upper year high school biology course, or first year university biology course. I suggest checking out a textbook at your local library.

[seraaa]

Derick has been liking tweets again. A selection:

 

So that's that

Edited May 6, 2021 by seraaa

[louisa05]

On 5/4/2021 at 10:39 PM, purple_summer said:

 

I do think people who are “disappointed”(??) that their kids aren’t LGBTQIA are weird. 

I think my friend who has expressed that is trying to compensate for her upbringing and her previous hate of LGBQT community and also trying to find ways to give the figurative finger to her parents. But you can’t use your children for either.  
 
And on another note, we’re barely friends anymore.  She still has the extremely black and white views of her fundamentalist upbringing and still has the instinct to evangelize others to her beliefs. She acts much the same. She just switched sides. I think the black and white thinking may be the hardest for some to move beyond. 

[FiveAcres]

29 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

I think my friend who has expressed that is trying to compensate for her upbringing and her previous hate of LGBQT community and also trying to find ways to give the figurative finger to her parents. But you can’t use your children for either.  
 
And on another note, we’re barely friends anymore.  She still has the extremely black and white views of her fundamentalist upbringing and still has the instinct to evangelize others to her beliefs. She acts much the same. She just switched sides. I think the black and white thinking may be the hardest for some to move beyond. 

I think Yeats may have been thinking of black and white thinking when he wrote:

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst   // Are full of passionate intensity." (The Second Coming -- William Butler Yeats) 

 

[theotherelise]

20 hours ago, artdecades said:

<snip>

4. I think exploiting minors for fame and money is by default abusive behaviors. Whether it’s the Duggars, Jazz’s parents, or any of the many shows on TLC. Jazz was not able to consent or understand what her fame would bring. Her parents failed to protect her. 

Yes absolutely. I remember watching a more serious docu special about a transgender child on TLC when I was a tween and it had a powerful positive impact on my understanding of gender and justice. But the show I Am Jazz is exploitative. I don't think she should be required to stay quiet or not share her story, but the parents signed their entire family up for an intrusive show. Beyond just not being able to make mistakes in private or change your mind about how open you want to be about different parts of your life, it is always dangerous when a family's finances hinge on a child performing. It will absolutely affect her relationship with her siblings and friends and parents. 

Derick's comments were absolutely bigoted and transphobic and cruel. No excuses for him. 

I recently left my evangelical reformed church. My parents are leaving their charismatic evangelical church. My brother and sister in law left their evangelical baptist church last year. There is a reckoning going on right now in the evangelical world. Churches are doubling down on bigotry and nationalism and victimhood rhetoric. Those of us with progressive views who tried to be a positive influence towards inclusivity are finding more and more that where there was previously room for difference and conversation, we are now told to conform.

The evangelical church has zero basis for their opposition to transgender people. There is no scriptural argument that they can make at all. It all boils down to patriarchy and misogyny. They want to mandate "Biblical gender roles" wherein men have the power and they feel threatened that other people say gender is something different. It's getting bad. There is a full on MORAL PANIC over it and the idea that teens are being influenced into falsely identifying as trans. The Abigail Shrier book is evidence of that. 

I do have hope for Derick and Jill because they really have made huge strides and they seem open to learning in some areas. But it's going to get worse in the evangelical world. They feel threatened by Biden and AOC and some kiddos who just want to play soccer with their friends. They think we are coming for their children. If the Dillards stay in their current circles, they will only have their current views reinforced.

I don't know how it gets better overall, but for now I have decided that the answer isn't sticking in those communities and trying to create change. I'm forging new community.