Dillards 89: I'd Watch a Netflix Xpecial and so Would My Mom

[TuringMachine]

34 minutes ago, seraaa said:

What does this even mean, though? "Gender ideology".

It means any fact about gender or sex that doesn't support my bigotry.

Edited May 5, 2021 by TuringMachine

[Foudeb]

Biological sex very much is a binary. It's sperm or egg. No human has ever produced "smegg". Having an intersex condition (technically it's called a disorder in sexual development) does not make you a third sex and many intersex people consider it an insult to be categorised that way. Just like being born with one arm when most people have two does not make you a whole different category of human being. Every human being, alive or dead, has both a biological mother and a biological father. It's actually one of the few things we all have in common, along with the fact we will all die at some point. 

I do think the Dillards deserve massive credit for taking some distance. Sounds like it was only motivated by money, not principles, but even just coming to the realisation that they don't have to be part of the dog and pony show, procreate for the cameras and deny their kids an education is *huge*

[Exchange Atheist]

I promise I won’t get into the entire discussion from the JKR Thread again, just one point: if biological sex is binary, how do you "categorise" intersex people? Given that infertility exists, we clearly can’t go by the potential to father or carry a child. Going by chromosomes won’t work for XXY people, going by genitals doesn’t work for people born with ambiguous genitalia, and if we go by hormone levels, even people with a continuous gender identity may change their sex based on hormonal disorders or simply by entering menopause. If any of these people exist outside the binary, then I don’t see how there can be a true binary.

 

Definitely agree that the Dillards did well in distancing from Jill’s parents and that public school is an enormous change. I am really looking forward to seeing future changes, hopefully even more in the kids (and only if they choose to share their lives).

Edited May 5, 2021 by Exchange Atheist

[Foudeb]

It's a difficult topic because a lot of long-lasting physical harm has been done (and is still being done) to intersex people in the name of making them fit into one category or the other. 

Saying they're a third sex is not physical abuse but it's still pretty othering imho. Yes it does have consequences (fertility comes to mind) but so what, you don't need to produce babies to be valid as a human being. 

And intersex conditions (there are many, and different to one another) affect a very small number of people and are usually well diagnoseda. 

For an overwhelming majority of babies sex is observed in utero. You can't write it on the birth certificate because foetuses don't have a birth certificate but it certainly is written down on the maternity file along with any potential anomalies. It is again observed at birth. 

The midwife and obgyn playing "eenie meenie miny mo what sex shall we randomly assign to this new baby" just does not happen. Ever. If the observation is not clear (again a tiny minority of cases) it's easy enough to get a cariotype test to help diagnose the disorder in sexual development (useful to know for the child as it can have implications in other health areas) I have no idea how this has become mainstream belief. 

 

[closetcagebaby]

Trans people have always existed. There is evidence of them existing as far back as 4500 years ago. This is not a new phenomenon despite us having a new vocabulary for it and despite it making some people uncomfortable. 

[Jinderella]

16 hours ago, seraaa said:

It isn't abuse for trans kids to have access to the accepted health and medical treatments available for their age range.

I never watched her show, though, so can't comment on anything about her life beyond that.

I think the abuse is showing them on reality television before the age of informed consent.

the tweets and misgendering were awful, but the tweets were deleted. I have hope D&J are on a learning path. You don’t always jump from fundie to woke and most of us made some silly mistakes when we were young, but they are getting better. They move slow, but they do move forwards 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Jinderella

[FrumpyAtheist]

6 hours ago, Jinder Roles said:

You’re a transphobe love. 

Kindly fuck off keep trans and non-binary people out of your mouth. 
 

 

The name calling won't get me to submit to religious belief in gender ideology, unfortunately. I'll stick with biological reality and women's rights, thanks.

[viii]

While I judge Derick for those tweets/beliefs, I'm personally more willing to give him room to grow is because he has shown me that he can. In the 7 years that Derick and Jill have been married, they have come such a long way and I hope that they will continue to evolve. We don't know where they'll end up. It's very easy to say as a young person "no child of mine will be gay" but if that turns out to be different, people's attitudes often change as they grow and learn. That's not always the case, unfortunately, but I think there is hope for Derick and Jill. They have shown that once they know better, they do better, and hopefully that will spill over into every area of their lives. 

[medimus]

35 minutes ago, closetcagebaby said:

Trans people have always existed. There is evidence of them existing as far back as 4500 years ago. This is not a new phenomenon despite us having a new vocabulary for it and despite it making some people uncomfortable. 

Would love to know the source for the 4500 years? How do the archeologists know?

 

4 hours ago, Exchange Atheist said:

just one point: if biological sex is binary, how do you "categorise" intersex people?

From a medical point of view, most differences of sexual development are specific to one sex or are still easily classified as male or female. So Turner syndrome only happens to females and Klinefelter to males. And aphallia can be either but still either would be identifiable as male or female. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

11 hours ago, FrumpyAtheist said:

But Jazz is a male, and many people don't subscribe to gender ideology or believe in "misgendering." Not believing in gender ideology isn't bigotry. I know many on here disagree, and that's fine. I already got downvoted into oblivion on the JKR thread about this and the angry mob hasn't changed my stance on this issue. Jazz is abused. Kids cannot consent to puberty blockers or sex surgeries.

Well, I believe in misgendering and I think to deliberately do so is nothing more than bigotry and deliberate shit stirring to get the attention you so clearly lack.  

There is no such thing as gender ideology so I guess I don't believe in it either, but I think we mean different things by that.  

 

[closetcagebaby]

40 minutes ago, medimus said:

Would love to know the source for the 4500 years? How do the archeologists know?

 

From a medical point of view, most differences of sexual development are specific to one sex or are still easily classified as male or female. So Turner syndrome only happens to females and Klinefelter to males. And aphallia can be either but still either would be identifiable as male or female. 

https://notchesblog.com/2017/05/02/evidence-for-trans-lives-in-sumer/
 

There are also some academic articles that discuss people like the Gala and the Hijras in India but they are behind paywalls. 

There was also a Roman ruler who preferred to be referred to as an Empress, wore women’s clothes, and possibly attempted gender confirmation surgery. 
 

a few more interesting links:

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by closetcagebaby

[HerNameIsBuffy]

29 minutes ago, closetcagebaby said:

There was also a Roman ruler who preferred to be referred to as an Empress, wore women’s clothes, and possibly attempted gender confirmation surgery. 

If you are referring to Elagabalus completely apart from any trans stuff he was a child murdering monster, among other things.

Your point that there are historical records of people being trans from antiquity is a good one, but wanted to get this out ahead of the bigots who may want to tie that in with his crimes against humanity that one has nothing to do with the other.  Him being trans was as related to his crimes as the fact that he likely had brown eyes....nothing.  But bigots will glom on to anything.  

[livinginthelight]

We often try to make sex an either-or issue and it just plain isn't. Chromosomes do unexpected things, and proteins and hormones affect chromosomes in a variety of ways. Added to that, sometimes sex hormone receptors are turned of for whatever reason.

Here is a very interesting TED talk from Emily Quinn, biologically male but born with androgen insensitivity so she (? - I think that's her pronoun) presents as female. She has other videos on Youtube which are equally instructive.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by livinginthelight

[TuringMachine]

2 hours ago, Jinderella said:

I think the abuse is showing them on reality television before the age of informed consent.

the tweets and misgendering were awful, but the tweets were deleted. I have hope D&J are on a learning path. You don’t always jump from fundie to woke and most of us made some silly mistakes when we were young, but they are getting better. They move slow, but they do move forwards 

I wanted to counter the downplaying of his comments, but I agree I have hope D&J are capable improving. Scrolling through his twitter reminded me just how much hate he used his platform to spread. So while he probably still has bigoted views at least he's not as openly hostile, which is a step in the right direction. More than I can say about the bigots in this thread.

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by TuringMachine

[SassyPants]

7 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

I wanted to counter the downplaying of his comments, but I agree I have hope D&J are capable improving. Scrolling through his twitter reminded me just how much hate he used his platform to spread. So while he probably still has bigoted views at least he's not as openly hostile, which is a step in the right direction. More than I can say about the bigots in this thread.

 

Perhaps therapy has helped DD too.

[Jinder Roles]

Just to clarify, nobody said anything about a "third sex". I simply pointed out that intersex people exist (and intersex is an umbrella term) which highlights the biodiversity in biology. There are probably more intersex people than is currently reported. Even if one only intersex person existed, it would be evidence that the male/female distinction is arbitrary. 

Also there are people considered cis-het who display variations (e.g: Caster Semenya, a cis-het athlete who naturally produces more testosterone than her peers. She was punished for this by IAAF because they're racist and anti-black as fuck!). 

In any case, gender and sex are two different things. Gender is entirely socially constructed. The idea that all people groups have seen themselves as male and female (as we currently understand it) throughout human history is false and an erasure of culture. This type of bioesssentialist logic is based in white supremacy. 

Fun fact: You don't need to be a woman to procreate. 

I really want y'all to free yourselves from the shackles of bioessentialism. 

[libgirl2]

2 hours ago, closetcagebaby said:

Trans people have always existed. There is evidence of them existing as far back as 4500 years ago. This is not a new phenomenon despite us having a new vocabulary for it and despite it making some people uncomfortable. 

If I remember right, most Native American tribes thought trans people had some kind of special connection to the Great Spirit or something like that. They were even allowed to marry. 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

Native People on the West Coast (I only speak of these people because I’ve heard the stories)  have an oral history dating back over 20,000 years.  Gay, transgender and others are in these histories, so there’s that.  

[Sullie06]

18 hours ago, artdecades said:

Jazz’s mother literally threatened to forcibly dilate her after srs because Jazz was depressed. 

I do think this also harkens back to the what other posters have said about age being a factor in SRS. Her mother doesn't trust her to maintain her aftercare and If she's going to go off to college and can't remember to or refuses to do a major part of the aftercare of her surgery, then maybe she wasn't ready to have that surgery yet. 

[libgirl2]

9 minutes ago, Don'tlikekoolaid said:

Native People on the West Coast (I only speak of these people because I’ve heard the stories)  have an oral history dating back over 20,000 years.  Gay, transgender and others are in these histories, so there’s that.  

I have heard stories of women who dressed as men and went out and hunted. IT seems certain cultures just accepted it as an everyday part of life. 

Just now, Sullie06 said:

I do think this also harkens back to the what other posters have said about age being a factor in SRS. Her mother doesn't trust her to maintain her aftercare and If she's going to go off to college and can't remember to or refuses to do a major part of the aftercare of her surgery, then maybe she wasn't ready to have that surgery yet. 

Possible, there is a lot of self care that goes into it and one has to be mature enough to do it. 

[Sullie06]

15 hours ago, nausicaa said:

There is still plenty I disagree with Derrick on, while also thinking he is more mainstream and healthier. And a lot of mainstream conservatives would have the same rules around their gay children, sadly. It's not just a Fundie thing. 

100%. My very conservative, catholic brother in law has the same views about LGBTQ+ rights, gay marriage, immigration, religion in schools and I could go on and on. He's not fundie, but he is close minded and I constantly have to remind him not to say certain things in front of my children. 

13 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

 

Possible, there is a lot of self care that goes into it and one has to be mature enough to do it. 

Exactly. It's not that she can't have the surgery, but just that maybe she needs time to grow and mature a little first. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

41 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Possible, there is a lot of self care that goes into it and one has to be mature enough to do it. 

Agreed and the same as non-controversial medical decisions like contacts.  I wasn't going to pay for my kid's contacts until I knew he was mature enough to care for them properly and follow whatever contact care to keep his eyes healthy.  Until that time he had glasses.  

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

If I remember right, most Native American tribes thought trans people had some kind of special connection to the Great Spirit or something like that. They were even allowed to marry. 

I don't know anything about their customs, just that they were different societies and cultures and their social and religious beliefs can't be lumped together any more than you could lump all of Europe, Asia, or modern day American's into one belief system.

[artdecades]

37 minutes ago, Sullie06 said:

I do think this also harkens back to the what other posters have said about age being a factor in SRS. Her mother doesn't trust her to maintain her aftercare and If she's going to go off to college and can't remember to or refuses to do a major part of the aftercare of her surgery, then maybe she wasn't ready to have that surgery yet. 

Right. But there are a few thing at play here. 
 

1. her mother laughingly said she would rape her child with a foreign object and didn’t see an issue with it. let’s not mince words, this is what she was describing 
2. Jazz’s body belongs to Jazz. She is the only one who should be making these decisions. If her mom didn’t think think she was mature enough for such a procedure she shouldn’t have let her minor child have it. I personally don’t think minors should have this surgery for this reason and others, but I know many disagree and I am not here to argue that. 
3. Iirc Jazz had some pretty serious complications following the procedure. Her issues with dilation could have pointed to her experiencing those complications but instead of taking her pain seriously her mom joked about sexually assaulting her. 
4. I think exploiting minors for fame and money is by default abusive behaviors. Whether it’s the Duggars, Jazz’s parents, or any of the many shows on TLC. Jazz was not able to consent or understand what her fame would bring. Her parents failed to protect her. 

[SorenaJ]

So I had a quick google about intersex, and apparently, there is a gene, called SRY, that will develop/trigger the male part (genitals, gonads (testes or ovaries), hormones. This gene usually always hangs out on the Y-chromosome, making people with XY male. Sometimes, however, the gene can be on an X-chromosome, making someone with XX appear male, because they have the SRY gene. Apparently, someone with XY can also be female, if the SRY gene has moved to the X-chromosome. 

[front hugs > duggs]

I watched all of I am Jazz, and I'm not remembering her mother making any types of jokes like that. Is this confirmed she did that? Jazz was 17 and a half, so I agree, still under 18. However, another one of Jazz's mother's concerns was about the severe depression and anxiety Jazz had and if she was able to care for herself while struggling with mental health flare ups. Under this context, I STILL don't think it would be funny to make jokes about SA. I just don't remember that being the situation.