PRESIDENT Joe Biden: A Return to Normalcy?

[Howl]

Mitch McConnell complimented Biden on the Infrastructure Bill. 

[Xan]

Sorry.  Posted on wrong thread.  Just ignore.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Xan

[SPHASH]

What are your thoughts on the Afghanistan situation.  Did Biden pull out too quickly.

[SPHASH]

Just for the record these three assholes are responsible for what is going on in Afghanistan.  

[Howl]

14 hours ago, SPHASH said:

What are your thoughts on the Afghanistan situation.  Did Biden pull out too quickly.

The Biden administration has had MONTHS to heed information that there needed to be large scale evacuations of Afghanis who assisted the US, of women activists and other vulnerable populations, and they didn't do shit.  This evacuation shit show, absolute chaos and horrible betrayal of so many people who helped the US and will now be murdered, is incomprehensible.  

Yes, the genesis of the conflict lies elsewhere, and Trump/Pompeo set things in motion in an idiotic way, but the lack of preparation and ignoring the signs of what was to come FOR MONTHS rest squarely on Biden's shoulders. 

My heart aches for Afghan women as ashes rain down on their current freedoms, their educational aspirations, their ability to put off early marriage.   There are already reports of forced "marriages" to Taliban fighters,  which is another term for formalized rape, continuing in sexual slavery and forced childbearing down the line with no possibility of escape. 

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Probably the Biden administration thought that the Afghan Army that had received 82 billions worth of equipment and 20 years of training could actually do something more than surrender straight away to a Taliban force that was inferior both in numbers and equipment.

Newspapers say that this is happening because the US underestimated the corruption in the Afghan goverment and Army that left soldiers unarmed and barely fed. 

I am also reminded of an opinion piece I read years ago, it basically said that the war in Afghanistan was lost because Americans just couldn't understand that most of Afghanistan is Taliban. I have no idea, if and eventually how much of this claim is true. But what is certain is that you can't bomb a country into a democracy. It's painfully apparent that the US Army intervention and all that "peacekeeping" by other countries couldn't change the fabric of the country.

[Destiny]

I don't think that Biden is wrong in his 'we've been there for 20 years, and if they still can't manage it without us propping them up, it's never going to work' opinion, but I'm FURIOUS at how badly we fucked up the evacuation of the people who helped us, and my heart hurts for all the women and girls who had some semblance of freedom and will likely lose it. Just ... the whole situation is SO FUCKED.

[WiseGirl]

It's like the fall of Saigon all over again. The US has failed and betrayed women, girls, human rights workers, minorities, allies, the list goes on...

Biden to address the nation.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/16/biden-will-give-a-speech-on-the-afghanistan-collapse-monday-afternoon-white-house-says.html

[Alisamer]

I don't know a ton about the situation in Afghanistan, but I do think it's a bit rich for us to have been in the country for 20 years trying to prevent a takeover by conservative extremists, while the same exact thing is happening (in a slower, and until recently less violent way) right here at home.

The whole situation is horrible and I feel terrible for the people of Afghanistan, especially the women and girls. 

Meanwhile a whole subculture of conservative extremists here in the US are denying the rightful government and have already attempted one coup. 

I don't know if there is a good way to balance between "protect human rights planet-wide" and "holy crap pay attention to what's happening in your own backyard". 

[NotQuiteMotY]

2 hours ago, WiseGirl said:

It's like the fall of Saigon all over again. The US has failed and betrayed women, girls, human rights workers, minorities, allies, the list goes on...

Biden to address the nation.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/16/biden-will-give-a-speech-on-the-afghanistan-collapse-monday-afternoon-white-house-says.html

TBH, when Mr. NQ (who got to the newspaper first this morning) told me that Kabul had been taken, I wondered if it was being a Saigon-style scramble. I don't believe there's not going to be elements of that still, especially with so many of the Afghan citizens who aided the US still trying to get out. And I don't believe for a second that there's going to be any peace for anyone not actively part of the Taliban from now on, so I don't blame them.

The whole thing has been screwed up from the start, and it feels like all the US really accomplished in 20 years was to destabilize the area and help radicalize a huge swath of a generation at the cost of money and lives. The bulk of the fault lies with Bush and his administration, but Obama, Trump, and now Biden have all had a hand in it.

[fraurosena]

Good speech.

Quote

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by fraurosena

[Destiny]

I don't think Biden is wrong about ANY of that, but the article I read about women going out to buy fucking burkas (sp? can't be bothered to google) again hurts. A generation of women grew up with freedom and it's likely gone.

I hope we at least step up the refugee program. We have a duty to help as many people who will be at risk from the Taliban as we can.

 

[fraurosena]

On 8/16/2021 at 3:26 PM, Howl said:

Yes, the genesis of the conflict lies elsewhere, and Trump/Pompeo set things in motion in an idiotic way, but the lack of preparation and ignoring the signs of what was to come FOR MONTHS rest squarely on Biden's shoulders. 

I agree with the above, with the caveat that we don’t have access to all the intelligence information that Biden does have. We don’t know why Biden chose to retreat when he did, and how. Was it possible to prepare for the current outcome under the circumstances? Then the lack thereof is entirely on Biden. But if the choice to retreat this quickly without thorough preparation was the lesser of two evils, then we can’t put it all on Biden. Fact is, we don’t know all the facts that led to this decision. 
That said, fact is also that the Afghan people, and mainly Afghan women and girls, are the victims of geo-political forces they have no control over and may very well have to pay with their lives for decisions made by politicians on the other side of the world.

Anyway, I went off on a tangent while I actually wanted to post more on the genesis of the current situation that @Howl mentions in the quote above.

This thread explains ‘the deal’ Trump and Pompeo made with the Taliban and the situation he left for Biden:

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by fraurosena
Clarity

[Smash!]

What I found interesting in the thread @fraurosena just posted is this: 

 

Biden was stuck between rock and a hard place. I think whatever he did it would have been criticized. 45 did again whatever he could to screw up the next president.

[SPHASH]

I'm still curious as to why the Afghani Army rolled over so quickly.  Putin bribe them?  Now I see on CNN where all the equipment and weapons we have them are now in the Taliban's hands.

[Xan]

13 minutes ago, SPHASH said:

I'm still curious as to why the Afghani Army rolled over so quickly.  Putin bribe them?  Now I see on CNN where all the equipment and weapons we have them are now in the Taliban's hands.

I read that we had mainly been equipping them to fight the same way that we do and had already stop doing support for weapons and communication.  I'm not surprised that they've quit.  They fight their guerilla war differently and they were outnumbered.  Possibly, a number of them were reluctant to side with Americans anyway.

[fraurosena]

I've seen reporting that the Afghan military was supposed to be 300.000 strong, and it was... on paper. In reality, there were only 5 to 6 real soldiers for every 1000 on paper. So the Afghan army was only a fraction of the size it was supposed to be. How did this come to be? Apparently, the Afghan command was paid for every soldier they had, and they claimed to have so much more than they really had in order to pocket all that 'free' money. Nobody thought to check if what the Afghan command claimed was in fact true, until some investigative reporters went digging. By then it was too late, and Trump was pulling the American troops out. 

So although it seems unbelievable that such a great number Afghan soldiers refused to fight and gave in to the Taliban, in reality it weren't that many at all. Also, immediately after the disastrous 'deal' Trump made with them, the Taliban began negotiations with the corrupt Afghan command, and apparently they ordered Afghan soldiers to give in to the Taliban. As I only have one vague source for that (I have several for the other stuff) I don't know the veracity of this last part but it wouldn't surprise me.

[fundiefan]

On 8/16/2021 at 9:33 AM, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Probably the Biden administration thought that the Afghan Army that had received 82 billions worth of equipment and 20 years of training could actually do something more than surrender straight away to a Taliban force that was inferior both in numbers and equipment.

 

This. You can't discuss "blame" or responsibility without discussing the Afghan Army & government. 

Twenty freaking years and they rolled over & played dead. Left millions in military equipment for the Taliban to pick up as they marched along, barely needing to raise a gun.

For almost twenty years, the US acted as nothing more than babysitters. Keeping the Taliban separated from the cities and the rest of the Afghans. What kind of country / government doesn't, somewhere along the line, pick up the gauntlet and begin being responsible for its own country? 

Biden said we are not in the business of nation building, and little about this situation could be more spot on. We weren't there to create a democratic Afghanistan; we were there for George Bush's ego with many excuses about terrorists after the US became full of panic hate for Muslims after 9/11. The terrorists of 9/11 were Saudi, not Afghan. Yet we went after the "easy" target.

Should there have been more planning? Yes. But it never, ever should have reached the point it reached in the first place. tRump negotiated with the f*cking Taliban like they were school buddies. He got Taliban big wigs released. What the hell did anyone think those newly freed "leaders" were going to do? Bow down to the US because their buddy tRump got them freed? tRump & Pompeo set up the administration following them to fail. They knew damn well they weren't going to be around in May to pull the trigger they cocked. 

That's not to absolve Biden of responsibility. That's to say this was a giant cluster fuck from the very first day and every POTUS since Bush is equally as responsible as all the others. 

While the GOP & tRumpers & Qers cry & yell & scream, they are doing nothing more than what they've ever done. Rile up their base. Make their base angry and full of hate. Use their base to fight their battles. And when the smoke clears & the immediate emergency is handled, or buried, what remains of Afghanistan will again be ignored & left to their own devices & the angry tRump, Q, GOP base will again elect an orange moron and up their anger and fighting and attacks and violence and we will go the same way of Afghanistan; into the abyss; another country that couldn't make democracy work and allowed the extremists to take over.

Afghanistan is almost a metaphor for the United States and extremism. And how ultimately, if we don't fight it, we lose because no one is going to fight it for us. Afghanistan didn't fight for themselves, the extremists won after laying low for a couple decades. Our extremists won't lay low and it won't take that long. 

[fraurosena]

This is a very good thread about the Afghanistan debacle, that fits right in with what @fundiefan says in the post above:

 

[fundiefan]

4 hours ago, fraurosena said:

This is a very good thread about the Afghanistan debacle, that fits right in with what @fundiefan says in the post above:

 

That thread is epically good. Thanks for sharing it. 

[Audrey2]

On 8/22/2021 at 10:22 AM, fundiefan said:

While the GOP & tRumpers & Qers cry & yell & scream, they are doing nothing more than what they've ever done. Rile up their base. Make their base angry and full of hate. Use their base to fight their battles. And when the smoke clears & the immediate emergency is handled, or buried, what remains of Afghanistan will again be ignored & left to their own devices & the angry tRump, Q, GOP base will again elect an orange moron and up their anger and fighting and attacks and violence and we will go the same way of Afghanistan; into the abyss; another country that couldn't make democracy work and allowed the extremists to take over.

Let's also remember that Tucker Carlson and others do not want the Afghan refugees to come to the United States.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Audrey2

[fundiefan]

7 minutes ago, Audrey2 said:

Let's also remember that Tucker Carlson and others do not want the Afghan refugees to come to the United States.

Oh, I know. 

That's just one of the reasons their "pray for Afghanistan" / "Biden failed Afghanistan" - all their false support of Afghanistan - is an insult to Afghans and human beings in general. They don't give a shit about the people or the country or that the "war" was never ending - they only care about going against the current administration. They have to yell and scream and cry about how terrible Joe Biden is and this is proof and look at my tears for all the people he hurt. But, oh my god no, they can't come here, what are you thinking? 

[fraurosena]

3 hours ago, fundiefan said:

Oh, I know. 

That's just one of the reasons their "pray for Afghanistan" / "Biden failed Afghanistan" - all their false support of Afghanistan - is an insult to Afghans and human beings in general. They don't give a shit about the people or the country or that the "war" was never ending - they only care about going against the current administration. They have to yell and scream and cry about how terrible Joe Biden is and this is proof and look at my tears for all the people he hurt. But, oh my god no, they can't come here, what are you thinking? 

And where was their righteous outcry when Trump unexpectedly recalled the troops from Syria, leaving the Kurds to be slaughtered by the Turks? He left them in the lurch despite the Kurds being allies who aided the American soldiers. Those translators, guides and intelligence gatherers were abandoned to their deaths. There wasn’t even an attempt to get them out, as is happening now in Afghanistan.

[WiseGirl]

 

[Audrey2]

Oh President Biden will get the blame, but there is no question in my mind that Trump set this Jenga Tower up to fall as soon as Biden looked at it.