Lori Alexander 75: Lori Imagines the Evils Caused by Contraception

[Coconut Flan]

Continued from here:

 

[Melissa1977]

Alyssa posted that she doesn't want another baby, at least not soon. Not that she has stated if uses birth control or not, but if she was serious about it, it may be the reason Lori is posting about the issue. Another relative I can picture stopping having babies is Steve (her wife doesn't look quiverful-loving at all). 

[Imrlgoddess]

So, question for the audience:  Family A has a working mom and dad.  They each contribute to both society and their family.  They have 2 children they have raised to be good, productive people.  No one is a villain or some kind of "evil" being or go out of their way to harm.  But they're atheist, or at perhaps watered down "appropriate Abrahamic belief system'.  Basically they aren't the bible beating evangelicals that Lori and similar ilk believe we should all be, they simply live a good life and try to do what is good and correct.

Do fundies truly believe that family will all end up in hell?  That God would send decent people of his own creation to their doom because they didn't fanatically worship?  

[Alisamer]

16 minutes ago, Imrlgoddess said:

Do fundies truly believe that family will all end up in hell?  That God would send decent people of his own creation to their doom because they didn't fanatically worship?  

Lori doesn't fanatically worship. She throws some words around, but I'd bet the majority of the "research" she does for her blog isn't biblical -  it's digging around for things to complain about.

I'm also curious what fundies think about that. And about why they seem to think a good person, living a good life, who happens to be born in a remote tribe or something who has never heard of Christianity would go to hell. The Bible says God created all people and all people are his children, right? So why would someone born into a different religion go to hell? 

I identify as Christian but I tend to think if God is the loving father Jesus spoke of, then maybe he doesn't care what name you call him or how you worship. 

[Xan]

23 minutes ago, Imrlgoddess said:

So, question for the audience:  Family A has a working mom and dad.  They each contribute to both society and their family.  They have 2 children they have raised to be good, productive people.  No one is a villain or some kind of "evil" being or go out of their way to harm.  But they're atheist, or at perhaps watered down "appropriate Abrahamic belief system'.  Basically they aren't the bible beating evangelicals that Lori and similar ilk believe we should all be, they simply live a good life and try to do what is good and correct.

Do fundies truly believe that family will all end up in hell?  That God would send decent people of his own creation to their doom because they didn't fanatically worship?  

Alas, I have an answer for that.  My nephew is a minister and I asked him this question.  He totally believes that anyone not believing that "Jesus Christ is your personal savior" goes to Hell.  I asked if he thought children from another country who may have never been exposed to Christianity would meet the same end and he said "yes".  

He's loved by his congregation but, as they say in the south, "the boy ain't right".

[Imrlgoddess]

27 minutes ago, Xan said:

Alas, I have an answer for that.  My nephew is a minister and I asked him this question.  He totally believes that anyone not believing that "Jesus Christ is your personal savior" goes to Hell.  I asked if he thought children from another country who may have never been exposed to Christianity would meet the same end and he said "yes".  

He's loved by his congregation but, as they say in the south, "the boy ain't right".

That blows my mind.  I was raised Catholic with a splash of Baptist...I don't remember ever being specifically told people like that would go to hell but I'm sure it was implied.  These days that mentality makes me wonder about the God they worship....That's some cold hearted business right there. 

[AuntKrazy]

56 minutes ago, Imrlgoddess said:

 

Do fundies truly believe that family will all end up in hell?  That God would send decent people of his own creation to their doom because they didn't fanatically worship?  

Fundies - yes.

others who identify as Christian see it more this way: Hell is Biblically a place where one is separated from the presence and worship of God. I've always thought: Why would a loving God choose to force someone who has chosen not to worship in this life to exist for eternity in the place that is all/only about worship of Him after it? But my viewpoint is all about human beings having agency which God does not violate.

[delphinium65]

1 hour ago, Imrlgoddess said:

Do fundies truly believe that family will all end up in hell?  That God would send decent people of his own creation to their doom because they didn't fanatically worship?  

I was taught that no matter how good and decent a person is, if s/he doesn't believe in Jesus, etc, that s/he will go to hell, with righteousness being filthy rags and Jesus being the only name by which anyone can be saved, and so forth.  An excuse was made for people who never heard of Jesus by using the 'unknown god' thing, that at some point in their lives they would be given some glimmer of thought that there was something bigger and greater than humans, and their eternal destiny would hang on how they responded to that.  Seems like a pretty sloppy system to me, but I'm a heathen, so what do I know?  

[Imrlgoddess]

RE:  the birth control drivel... I've been rewatching Harlots this last week or so and I'm a nerd for Veronica Franco of 16th century Italy.  Prostitution is the worlds oldest profession.  How does Lori think they went without kids interrupting their work, particularly if they had a pimp or a madame?  On Harlots one of the girls changed houses and the Baud asked her if she had children, she answered "none livin'".  Birth control is.not.new!  But then again...those midwives and wise women who had the tinctures or moss "diaphragms" were sought out and hung as witches.....

[klein_roeschen]

11 minutes ago, Imrlgoddess said:

RE:  the birth control drivel... I've been rewatching Harlots this last week or so and I'm a nerd for Veronica Franco of 16th century Italy.  Prostitution is the worlds oldest profession.  How does Lori think they went without kids interrupting their work, particularly if they had a pimp or a madame?  On Harlots one of the girls changed houses and the Baud asked her if she had children, she answered "none livin'".  Birth control is.not.new!  But then again...those midwives and wise women who had the tinctures or moss "diaphragms" were sought out and hung as witches.....

The old egyptians stuffed pills made of herbs and crocodile dung into the vagina to prevent getting pregnant. Herbs like ivy roots, parsley roots, penniroyal or nutmeg was used to bring on a "late period". Condoms made out of animal bladders, mostly sheep are know since at least the 17th century, the most famous user was Cassanova. The actual diaphragma was invented in 1870 and was the first really reliable method of birthcontrol. The pull out before ejaculation method is also know for centuries.

1 hour ago, Xan said:

Alas, I have an answer for that.  My nephew is a minister and I asked him this question.  He totally believes that anyone not believing that "Jesus Christ is your personal savior" goes to Hell.  I asked if he thought children from another country who may have never been exposed to Christianity would meet the same end and he said "yes".  

He's loved by his congregation but, as they say in the south, "the boy ain't right".

Well, it seems like in hell you get the more decent company.

[kmachete14]

RE Catholics -- I was taught a similar thing that Hell is just separation from God. So, once you died, no matter your belief system, you would have the choice to be with God (after you ask forgiveness of course) and that God was so all-knowing and all-loving that you would be able to enter heaven (no matter what basically). Heaven was not a physical place, but just where your soul would be at peace from being with God. Of course, there was also purgatory, where you were separated from God for a short time. The book we read was a CS Lewis book that used the parable of a bus. You could get off the bus and join God, or stay complaining on the bus driving through some boring grayscape. 

Catholics also think almost every single other religion is divinely inspired by God (humans are born with a longing for God) and that's also why they don't write them off as heathens doomed to hell.

I am NOT a practicing Catholic, I am an atheist, I am just telling you what was taught to me in 2008-2012 Catholic high school & Confirmation class! 

Also, this is part of the reason why Lori and other fundies hate Catholics, most likely. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by kmachete14

[RosyDaisy]

It is my belief that children are innocents and go to heaven per Jesus in Matthew 19:14:

"Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.'"

 

[PennySycamore]

@Loveday, your experience sounds so much like that of one my old friends who was also my youngest daughter's godmother.  When she started her periods,  they were basically unceasing.  She did not know that you weren't supposed to have your period all the damn time!  Finally she went to the doctor and got everything straightened out.  

[Antipatriarch]

2 hours ago, klein_roeschen said:

The old egyptians stuffed pills made of herbs and crocodile dung into the vagina to prevent getting pregnant. Herbs like ivy roots, parsley roots, penniroyal or nutmeg was used to bring on a "late period".

I've always wondered if the "bitter water" mentioned in Numbers 5:11-31 was an abortifacient. Regardless, the whole rite is another disgusting OT patriarchal women-as-property atrocity. The husband has no evidence of infidelity, but if he gets jealous and suspects her, here's a God-sanctioned procedure to find the "truth" -- sorry she has to drink something with serious health consequences, but hey, the husband will have peace of mind. Might as well ask if she weighs more than a duck, while you're at it.

[Alisamer]

Um. Has Lori forgotten that she, herself, used birth control?

She's posted multiple times about how she manipulated Ken into allowing her to stop working by poking holes in her diaphragm. And she decided to "open her womb" to as many kids as God would allow AFTER she was past her childbearing years. Diaphragms are birth control, Lori. And not the kind that is frequently prescribed to help other issues, either.

She is so incredibly obsessed with sex. It's ridiculous. She talks over and over about sex, all related to women and what they should and shouldn't do, and also frequently talks about other women's bodies and how much or little they show. She's obsessed with sex, yet Ken apparently only gets "10 minutes and some lube".  

Things that make you go "Hmmmm..."

[Loveday]

1 hour ago, PennySycamore said:

@Loveday, your experience sounds so much like that of one my old friends who was also my youngest daughter's godmother.  When she started her periods,  they were basically unceasing.  She did not know that you weren't supposed to have your period all the damn time!  Finally she went to the doctor and got everything straightened out.  

Oh, bless her, I know how she felt. Well, mine would go on for a good ten, mostly heavy days, so not quite all the time. But bad enough.  Birth control pills really were the answer--just some basic hormone therapy to get everything working properly. I know it doesn't work for everyone, but for me and for countless others with different period/PCOS/certain other reproductive area issues, it was and is an absolute miracle. 

 

Speaking of miracles...menopause. OMG. No. More. Periods.  LOL.

[Sarah92]

The strand of Christianity I grew up in saw those who didn’t believe in God and see Jesus as savior as going to hell. The belief is that made a personal choice and God respects it. There’s varying beliefs about children. Some would say an infant would go to hell others would say that children would go to heaven because they don’t know better. Similarly that range of belief held true for those never exposed to Christianity. I’d say most of the people I grew up with would believe a child went to heaven and someone who hasn’t been witnessed to would also go to heaven. Maybe it’s called divine revelation or something like that. 
 

I don’t know exactly what I believe anymore (yeah faith deconstruction) but lean more towards heaven for those who believe, are young, etc and idk maybe just eternal sleep for those who don’t? Kinda like what atheist seem to believe happens when you die. I really don’t know anymore though. 

[PennySycamore]

Most all atheists believe that when you die that's it.  In the TV show Kate and Allie,  Allie (Jane Curtin) was talking to her son Chip about his kitten who had died.  Allie said that some people believed in that you go to heaven when you died and some people believed that when you died it was more like a light bulb burning out or a light switch being turned off.  There's no energy there anymore.  

(I really need to re-watch this episode.  Maybe it was Kate that said this to Chip.  After all she gave him the kitten.)

[Dana723]

10 hours ago, Xan said:

Alas, I have an answer for that.  My nephew is a minister and I asked him this question.  He totally believes that anyone not believing that "Jesus Christ is your personal savior" goes to Hell.  I asked if he thought children from another country who may have never been exposed to Christianity would meet the same end and he said "yes".  

He's loved by his congregation but, as they say in the south, "the boy ain't right".

My father is a Christian minister and one of the smartest men I know.  He said that anyone can get to Heaven if they listen to their conscience and do what's right.  It's harder if they don't accept Jesus but it's possible.  I agree to a point.  If you're a good person and do what's right (which to me is the Golden Rule), I think God will take that into account.  There's so many people out there who have not heard of Jesus or have heard a twisted version of Christianity so I think God won't hold that against them.

[SongRed7]

Oh dear, Lord.    Show of hands, who gave up half way through on Ken's wall o' text today?  -- his rebuttal to his pastor re: the service he walked out of the other week. 

Ken -- if you want people to understand your point on anything, you need to do it more succinctly.  Otherwise you just sound like a blowhard.  If the shoe fits....

 

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by SongRed7

[Sarah92]

1 hour ago, SongRed7 said:

Oh dear, Lord.    Show of hands, who gave up half way through on Ken's wall o' text today?  -- his rebuttal to his pastor re: the service he walked out of the other week. 

Ken -- if you want people to understand your point on anything, you need to do it more succinctly.  Otherwise you just sound like a blowhard.  If the shoe fits....

 

 

He’s got a case of the “I want to sound smart and theological so I’m gonna be wordy”. When I had to read theologians for when I was studying integration of psych and Christianity it was like wading through mud. Lordy some of those men took a paragraph to say something that should have taken a sentence or less. Philosophy does that too. Honestly, it’s because theologians write like this that everyday people not trained in theology struggle to tackle these topics and are therefore prey to bad teaching. 

edit: I actually went and read about a third of what he wrote and gosh he’s wordy and doesn’t really have a strong basis or an understanding of how many modern theologians actually interpret scripture  

Also this exchange lol. And then Kenneth jumps in with nonsense. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Sarah92

[lilwriter85]

I read about half of Ken's post. I'll probably try reading the rest later on. Since Ken has a divinity degree, he should just start a home church or rent out a space at a strip mall or office building and start his own little church.

[Hane]

I could never understand how the “saved” could be eternally happy in heaven while knowing their “unsaved” loved ones were suffering eternally in hell.

[usmcmom]

I quit reading Ken’s post at about the second paragraph. 
 

He started with “Dead Pastor,” but then goes on to write “your pastor...” several times. So, is he speaking to a pastor or to a general audience? 
 

Since he does have a Masters in Divinity, shouldn’t he know to keep his writing. voice consistent?  His thoughts are so scattered and he is such a rambling buffoon, I cannot imagine listening to him speak on a weekly basis. 
 

Also, in regards to Ken walking out of a service - the proper and mature thing to do would be to meet with the pastor and church leadership privately. Have a calm and respectful discussion about differences of opinion and interpretation.  Ken sends his wife to social media to complain and then takes over her blog for a day to air his grievances.  How do they think this wins people to the church?  Nobody wants to be a part of a church when even their own members can’t get along. 

[Alisamer]

23 minutes ago, usmcmom said:

Also, in regards to Ken walking out of a service - the proper and mature thing to do would be to meet with the pastor and church leadership privately. Have a calm and respectful discussion about differences of opinion and interpretation.  Ken sends his wife to social media to complain and then takes over her blog for a day to air his grievances.  How do they think this wins people to the church?  Nobody wants to be a part of a church when even their own members can’t get along. 

My pastor has said from the pulpit that he often meets with members of the congregation who may or may not agree with him, and his response is usually that maybe both of them are right. But of course, Ken couldn't just go out for coffee or lunch, or meet the pastor in his office and have an actual conversation like that. He has to go online and bloviate where the pastor can't explain or respond, and where Ken will feel superior to anyone who responds to him in the comments. 

If he doesn't like the church, he should start his own. 

Though really, he could just preach at Lori during their daily walk. No one else wants to hear his ridiculousness.