Seewalds 35: Silence is Golden

[SeekingAdventure]

14 hours ago, TeaELSee said:

Spurgeon acts older than Israel and is clearly the leader, nothing wrong with that, I just found it to be an interesting dynamic.  What is the age difference?

I think a lot of it has to do with Spurgeon, seemingly, being allowed to do whatever he wants to do (within limits, obviously) versus Israel being 'blessed' to learn bible verses and being force-read to.

I'm sure that Spurge and Henry get their share of bibletime too, but I also think that if they would try to get away, their parents would say: well, not today, whereas the Dillards wouldn't.

 

Also, the age difference between Spurge and Henry is a lot smaller, so Spurge is more used to be a 'leader' to his little brother, whereas I think playing together for Israel and Samuel is not that easy yet, due to the bigger age gap. They might be there now, but Sam only just turned one a little while ago, and he seems to be in his car seat a lot, whereas Henry has been running/crawling around way before that.

 

Also, WHERE is Samuel? poor kid!

Edit: I hope he was just down for a nap when they filmed, and not in his car seat having to watch the olders having fun. 

[Mama Mia]

4 hours ago, SeekingAdventure said:

I think a lot of it has to do with Spurgeon, seemingly, being allowed to do whatever he wants to do (within limits, obviously) versus Israel being 'blessed' to learn bible verses and being force-read to.

I'm sure that Spurge and Henry get their share of bibletime too, but I also think that if they would try to get away, their parents would say: well, not today, whereas the Dillards wouldn't.

 

Also, the age difference between Spurge and Henry is a lot smaller, so Spurge is more used to be a 'leader' to his little brother, whereas I think playing together for Israel and Samuel is not that easy yet, due to the bigger age gap. They might be there now, but Sam only just turned one a little while ago, and he seems to be in his car seat a lot, whereas Henry has been running/crawling around way before that.

 

Also, WHERE is Samuel? poor kid!

Edit: I hope he was just down for a nap when they filmed, and not in his car seat having to watch the olders having fun. 

Good points. The age gap between Spurgeon and Henry is only 14 months, while it’s 2 years and 3months between Israel and Samuel. That’s a huge difference in sibling dynamics when they are still babies/toddlers. Although it will even out some shortly. 

I agree Israel seems very stifled and his parents are exceedingly clueless to his cues ( at least based on what Jill posts- and no one is stupid enough to only post the meh parts of kid interactions...right? ) . And Jessa and Ben come across as VERY tuned in and adept at communicating with Spurgeon in a way that encourages development. 

But then, of course, you also have innate personalities. And mimicking parents personalities. A whole treasure trove of nature / nurture discussion that could be had from that video!

[Carm_88]

I think it's very possible that Spurgeon has Jessa's personality as well as looks. Jessa is definitely a leader and has a very strong personality. Spurgeon may be quite like her ready to take the lead, whereas Israel might be more of a follower,

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

Israel is going to be tall.

With a name like Spurgeon, it's no surprise the kid's got leadership traits. It's a very authoritarian sounding name. When I was growing up, the kids with unusual names were generally the more outspoken (not necessarily troublemakers, but they tended to stand out).

Henry trying to keep up is too cute.

[TeaGrannie]

I work for a company that doesn’t always get the “warmest” reception from others. I usually go with the more vague I work in insurance description. 

 

[Cheetah]

It's also Spurgeon's house... I think kids tend to be more deferential when they are the guest and a bit more bossy when they are on their home turf.

[SapphireSlytherin]

I love that Jessa just let Henry do his thing, and then congratulated him on making it down the slide. 

[AprilQuilt]

12 hours ago, VeryNikeSeamstress said:

With a name like Spurgeon, it's no surprise the kid's got leadership traits. It's a very authoritarian sounding name. When I was growing up, the kids with unusual names were generally the more outspoken (not necessarily troublemakers, but they tended to stand out)

I don't think that's down to the name itself, necessarily (although having grown up with a name that was very unusual when I was a kid, I guess I was resigned to having that distinctive/memorable first impression, rather than being able to melt into a crowd of Beckys and Sarahs). Parents who give their kids an unusual name are often the sort of people who feel comfortable taking up space in their world/drawing a little attention - if their kids are more outgoing, individual or overbearing, it's because that's been modelled for them in a bunch of ways beyond their name. Jessa and Ben are pretty comfortable making a statement about themselves and their beliefs in the naming of their children; Israel is kind of bold but it's a lot more predictable for the DIllards' circle.

[Mama Mia]

9 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I love that Jessa just let Henry do his thing, and then congratulated him on making it down the slide. 

Loved that too! And it makes sense Sam wasn’t participating. Hopefully he was napping or playing with toys or eating, not just stuck n a container with nothing to do . If Henry,  who is 6 mo older, was just barely able to inch his way up the structure ( sooooo cute how determined he was !) - Sam would have been just stuck at the bottom, and probably frustrated. 

[AprilQuilt]

I hadn't really thought about the contrasting ways Sam and Henry are presented. Looking at her insta, from well under a year old Jessa has always shown Henry just out there in the mix - on the sofa, on the rug, in their bed, in the garden, being pushed around in the stroller by Spurgeon. Jill seems to like to have Samuel a lot more contained a lot more often; we see him in a high chair or a car seat really regularly compared to Henry's babyhood. Maybe they just have different temperaments (and it's probably easier to keep two kids engaged in the same activity when they have a 15-month age gap rather than almost double that) but it's interesting.

[MsSaylor]

They always had Israel in a carseat too. I remember pics of them still carrying him around in a bucket seat when he was over a year old as well. They are sucky parents unfortunately. 

[Carm_88]

Yeah, Jill and Derick don't seem to be the let the kids explore type of parents.

[AtlanticTug]

11 hours ago, AprilQuilt said:

I hadn't really thought about the contrasting ways Sam and Henry are presented. Looking at her insta, from well under a year old Jessa has always shown Henry just out there in the mix - on the sofa, on the rug, in their bed, in the garden, being pushed around in the stroller by Spurgeon. Jill seems to like to have Samuel a lot more contained a lot more often; we see him in a high chair or a car seat really regularly compared to Henry's babyhood. Maybe they just have different temperaments (and it's probably easier to keep two kids engaged in the same activity when they have a 15-month age gap rather than almost double that) but it's interesting.

Jessa has talked about how needy Henry is as a child so this doesn't surprise me, though yes, we all know the Dillards like their babies more contained. But if I think of my two kids, my son was much more independent and he wanted to explore the house and play on his own with toys, etc. My daughter you can't set down for like 5 minutes before she is screeching. She wants to be held or close by and is a people person. So it would seem like we pay more attention to her or spend more time with her but it's just catering to a different personality. Believe me if I could put her in a playpen or a high chair and have her happily in there for even 15 minutes I'd be overjoyed.

[AprilQuilt]

12 hours ago, AtlanticTug said:

Jessa has talked about how needy Henry is as a child so this doesn't surprise me, though yes, we all know the Dillards like their babies more contained. But if I think of my two kids, my son was much more independent and he wanted to explore the house and play on his own with toys, etc. My daughter you can't set down for like 5 minutes before she is screeching. She wants to be held or close by and is a people person. So it would seem like we pay more attention to her or spend more time with her but it's just catering to a different personality. Believe me if I could put her in a playpen or a high chair and have her happily in there for even 15 minutes I'd be overjoyed.

yeah, my younger brother was a very docile, easy-going baby who was pretty content to be toted around and just watch the action. He totally slotted in around me and my stuff, and I'm sure my mum was grateful for it, but as an adult I don't think it's served him well. He's amenable to the point of passiveness, he doesn't really know how to assert himself or place himself at the centre of things even when he really cares. Our grandfather died recently and my bro called me up asking if I thought he should go down there to support the family - he obviously really wanted to, but his instinct to do it wasn't enough without permission. I know he said once or twice as a teenager that he wasn't going to bother doing X activity because I was already better at it than he would be.

I feel like an absolute shit writing the above - I really hope I'm not a horrible or overbearing person, I have certainly never tried to be - but it's pretty sad how easily a quiet, well-behaved middle child can just get lost in the mix of a volatile, busy family. I can totally imagine a Duggarling or two feeling the way he does. Josiah probably reacts by being loud and making jokes; Jinger did by retreating into herself and having zero confidence. Even if wee Sam is totally content to just sit in his chair and watch the world go by, I hope he gets some time and attention that's just for him.

[cascarones]

I think it's nice the cousins are so close. I do think it being Spurgy's place changes the dynamic. For Israel, how many times has that kid moved? It can impact little developing personalities, especially if he is a shyer one where stability is highly valued. 

Both mothers were sister moms as children themselves and had different styles then. I don't find it surprising that their mothering patterns appear dissimilar. In some sense I think Jessa's social media savvy is innate, I mean her parents did make everyone think they were raising children so capable a baby could be weaned and passed to a preteen sister buddy. 

It's also worth noting Jessa has the ability to make social media misstep posts in a way Jill and Anna never can without endless BEC pile on because of their husbands' behavior.

[Four is Enough]

On 9/12/2018 at 9:26 PM, TeaELSee said:

Spurgeon acts older than Israel and is clearly the leader, nothing wrong with that, I just found it to be an interesting dynamic.  What is the age difference?

I've always put it down to the way the parents relate to the children, at least from what I've seen. Benessa seems to understand that kids are kids; DerJill seems to think they're "mini adults and should behave as such."

I feel that Benessa's kids are allowed to BE kids and Israel and Sam are expected to BEHAVE in certain ways.

I prefer the Benessa approach.

[HermioneSparrow]

50 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

I've always put it down to the way the parents relate to the children, at least from what I've seen. Benessa seems to understand that kids are kids; DerJill seems to think they're "mini adults and should behave as such."

I feel that Benessa's kids are allowed to BE kids and Israel and Sam are expected to BEHAVE in certain ways.

I prefer the Benessa approach.

It's obvious that Derjill blanket train their kids and Benessa probably don't, and I really think it's because of Ben's gentle approach to parenthood (not putting down Jessa though, she's not as disciplinarian as we all thought).

[metheglyn]

9 hours ago, HermioneSparrow said:

It's obvious that Derjill blanket train their kids and Benessa probably don't, and I really think it's because of Ben's gentle approach to parenthood (not putting down Jessa though, she's not as disciplinarian as we all thought).

It really will be interesting (though probably sad) to see the differences in these kids as they grow up. I especially feel bad for them since they'll see how each others' parents behave towards them since all they spend so much time together. Once they're really able to compare I wonder how they'll feel knowing that "A's parents do/say/expect X, but B's parents do/say/expect Y" and if that will impact how they interact with each other and how they respond to the beliefs about relationships that their parents want them to grow up with as they get older.

This kind of cousin interaction will be a very different dynamic than comes from having different fundie families more spread out and maybe solitary. Even if there were several non-related fundie families close together when the second generation fundies were growing up, they still likely spent less time together than second gen's kids will since they weren't all part of a large family network like the second gen's own new families are.

[Carm_88]

On 9/15/2018 at 12:59 PM, cascarones said:

I think it's nice the cousins are so close. I do think it being Spurgy's place changes the dynamic. For Israel, how many times has that kid moved? It can impact little developing personalities, especially if he is a shyer one where stability is highly valued.

I don't feel that we have ever gotten a good sense of what Israel's personality may be. In most videos, his parents are pushing him to say certain things or are ignoring him. He seems like a sweet kid and maybe he is a bit shy. Honestly, being with Ben and Jessa instead of his parents may be very good for Israel and for Sam.

[SeekingAdventure]

44 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Honestly, being with Ben and Jessa instead of his parents may be very good for Israel and for Sam.

not sure wheter I should agree with you because yes absolutely it would be great but it would be even harder coming home and realizing how different it is?

and growing resentful and being treated even worse?

[Four is Enough]

@SeekingAdventure imagine the first time Israel or Sam says, "But Spurge and Henry can....." to their parents...

Instant spanking.

[cascarones]

31 minutes ago, SeekingAdventure said:

and growing resentful and being treated even worse?

He's not allowed to feel resentful with their religious beliefs. Though honestly, I don't remember any resentment that other families had cooler rules when I was a kid. As a teenager, I thought everything was unfair, so I don't know if I can count that. 

I just thought he might be shy from how he went and hid under the desk before continuing to be forced to answer questions on camera. I hope it's just a weird video where they wanted to show that Derick interacts with his kids in the morning and Jill gets a bit more sleep. 

[Carm_88]

3 hours ago, SeekingAdventure said:

not sure wheter I should agree with you because yes absolutely it would be great but it would be even harder coming home and realizing how different it is?

and growing resentful and being treated even worse?

It doesn't seem like they are treated super well by Derick anyway, he doesn't even seem to like his kids. That's something that's picked up on fairly quickly as a kid. I think they are going to be resentful of that situation no matter what.

[Sky with diamonds]

4 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

It doesn't seem like they are treated super well by Derick anyway, he doesn't even seem to like his kids. That's something that's picked up on fairly quickly as a kid. I think they are going to be resentful of that situation no matter what.

And who could blame Izzy or Sam if they have resentful feelings towards Jill and/or Derick? I wouldn't. Those kiddos have allot to be resentful for, but they can't show their true feelings. 

[SeekingAdventure]

10 hours ago, cascarones said:

He's not allowed to feel resentful with their religious beliefs.

even if he isn't allowed/supposed to, i think he'd still feel that it is strange how different it would be. and not feel happy about it. and not being allowed to doesn't mean one doesn't do it?

I know what you mean though. but the way these kids are being treated, someone at some point will blow up, in some way we probably wouldn't see it coming. izzy or Sam might be a good bet. it's the quiet ones ...