Seewalds 33: Schroedinger’s Uterus

[Mayluka]

2 hours ago, neurogirl said:

Jessa posted earlier about Spurgeon playing in the garden but this post about Samuel was really sweet and telling for me. 

This is Henry. Samuel is Jill’s #2. I think we’ve reached the point of too many kids and grandkids to keep up with though, because I keep forgetting that Gideon and Garrett exist. 

[Rachel333]

All the "boy mom" and "girl mom" stuff makes it clear how much children are stereotyped from birth.

[neurogirl]

1 hour ago, Mayluka said:

This is Henry. Samuel is Jill’s #2. I think we’ve reached the point of too many kids and grandkids to keep up with though, because I keep forgetting that Gideon and Garrett exist. 

I definitely knew that, but it's like when parents call their kids by the wrong names. Clearly there are just too many Duggar grandsons!

[Hisey]

Funny story about the fire truck. I worry about what happened next. 

Jessa seems pretty convinced that S hit his brother and then lied about it. Did she go back and confront S? Was she aware that he probably doesn't even remember it anymore? Does she know that impulsive behavior like that is developmentally appropriate, and that's why you need to supervise small children all the time? Did she accuse S of lying or does she know that he is too young to understand "lying"? What went on in that "teaching moment"?

She does use the same lingo as her mom. So I worry she is responding the same way her mom would've--with a whack on the legs with some PVC pipe, or some other equally heinous discipline. I'm not saying she is. . . I just see lots of evidence that Jessa loves her Michelle, seems to admire her, and has positive memories of how she was raised. There's no evidence that she's decided to abandon Michelle's methods.

Jessa seems like a loving mom, but she is also completely uneducated. Anything she knows about childrearing she learned from a bunch of crazies who believe in severe corporal punishment. And hitting and lying. . . those are the kinds of offenses that fundies try to "stamp out" quickly.

I do remember another incident where a fed-up S put his fist on H's head. Then he stopped suddenly, took away his fist, looked up worriedly at Jessa and said "I'm a good boy, mommy." That's when Jessa wrote about "these teachable moments" and it made me wonder what a teachable moment involved.

I worry that the "teachable moment" took place like this. She took S gently aside. She told him she knew he'd hit H because H had a mark on his forehead (a connection S wouldn't even understand). Then she'd say something about God wanting her to teach him that hitting was wrong. Then she'd get out her little PVC pipe or whatever, and hit him with a couple of times, followed by hugs and talk about how God loves him and wants him to be a good boy.

I hope that didn't happen, but I worry it did.

[Illmarryyoujana]

20 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Jessa seems like a loving mom, but she is also completely uneducated. Anything she knows about childrearing she learned from a bunch of crazies who believe in severe corporal punishment. And hitting and lying. . . those are the kinds of offenses that fundies try to "stamp out" quickly.

I do remember another incident where a fed-up S put his fist on H's head. Then he stopped suddenly, took away his fist, looked up worriedly at Jessa and said "I'm a good boy, mommy." That's when Jessa wrote about "these teachable moments" and it made me wonder what a teachable moment involved.

I worry that the "teachable moment" took place like this. She took S gently aside. She told him she knew he'd hit H because H had a mark on his forehead (a connection S wouldn't even understand). Then she'd say something about God wanting her to teach him that hitting was wrong. Then she'd get out her little PVC pipe or whatever, and hit him with a couple of times, followed by hugs and talk about how God loves him and wants him to be a good boy.

I hope that didn't happen, but I worry it did.

I don’t believe Jessa is the mom we need to worry about at all. From everything she’s shown, and it all seems genuine, she’s extremly loving and gentle with her children. She was a “naughty” kid herself and was probably often punished by her parents. I don’t think she’s using God or whippings of any sort to  punish or invoke fear in her children. She likely learned not to use physical punishment from her upbringing. She may be uneducated, I don’t think she blindly follows her mother and fathers parenting styles. If you were talking about Jill, worry away. Just my thoughts on it. 

[TheOneAndOnly]

Jessa might be media savvy enough to know what NOT to post about.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

Jessa seems like a loving mom, but she is also completely uneducated. Anything she knows about childrearing she learned from a bunch of crazies who believe in severe corporal punishment. And hitting and lying. . . those are the kinds of offenses that fundies try to "stamp out" quickly.

It doesn't take any education to be a decent human-being. My parents are college educated and completely toxic. My mother was & is emotionally abusive, my father is a misogynistic racist. I learned how to be a parent from them, and by that I mekedan I became the parent I always wished I'd had. I didn't have any examples, my parenting style didn't come from anyone around me, I did things my way, and I found it just came naturally.  When I had my kids, my instinct was to love them, as they grew, I remembered what my own childhood was like and generally did the opposite of what my mother did. 

Yes, generally if kids are abused, they will abuse their children.  My husband's father was physically & emotionally abusive, and as I mentioned, my mother was emotionally abusive, we did NOT pass this on to our children. When I 1st got pregnant we talked about what our parents did and how we wanted to make we didn't do what they did. This has been an on going conversation for almost 21 years in our house.  We wanted to be kind loving parents and made sure out kids knew we loved them no matter what.  Neither of us got that growing up, me from my mother, he from his father. 

[just_ordinary]

I am very happy that she openly stated how they deal with the struggle of a child that doesn’t sleep on its own. 

For me it is not so much about not sleeptraining (I think I couldn’t do it, but I might think different about it when we are both back to work after six months, and I know there are different methods. Still determined to not sleep train but I learned that sometimes circumstances force you to do things you hate. So I am careful to judge.) itself but the feeling that she is openly showing that she does things differently than her community. A social circle that believes in blanket training, sibling-parents and the manipulative and sinning character of children doesn’t strike me as a community that is understanding for the individual needs and developments of children. Acknowledging that and then even be willing to react to this in an understanding and loving way where they look how far they can compromise to meet everyone’s personal needs looks like a big step for a Fundie family to me.

Of course that is easier with just two children than with five.

It also gives me hope that they might know that toddlers don’t “lie”. Their brain and how they experience the things are still so different that often they truly believe what they say (hence saying they didn’t do it even after telling you saw them).

We can never be sure, but some of their SM posts give me hope that those children will not suffer the abuse many others do in those circles.

[PainfullyAware]

It's absolutely true that social media only shows what they want us to see. But I would push back against Jessa being a mini Michelle in every respect. First of all, in the interviews on the show, Jessa's manners and comments are more assertive, opinionated, and straightforward than her mother's super sweet, meek act. Jessa has mentioned struggling to conform to the "lady like" expectations of girls in her family. She has also openly said she wasn't the best sister mom. In contrast, Michelle always tries to embody the expectations of the perfect IBLP wife- maternal, sweet, submissive.

Jessa and Ben have talked about how they fight as a married couple. That definitely goes against the wife needing to keep sweet expectation. She teases him and contradicts him. He doesn't spend a lot of time talking about his role as head of the household. She obviously values the hands on time he spends as a father. Jim Bob and Michelle always talk about their "love story," represent their marriage as perfect, and Michelle goes along with whatever Jim Bob says. He is obviously not a very hands-on father. Michelle didn't really seem to relish time spent with her children. She seemed to value getting on with the next kid instead of savoring time with the present ones. To me all this suggests that Ben and Jessa see their roles at husband and wife, mother and father, very differently than her parents do.

Of course in all of this we need to remember that they are deeply patriarchal, and part of a misogynistic religious sect. They may very well practice corporal punishment. But I do think there is space between how they think and behave and how her parents do.

[MadameOvary]

Well, there are two parents. Ben seems like a reasonably hands-on dad. What do we know about how he was brought up? Maybe he's not into whacking his kids and Jessa is happy to follow her "headship" by loving these sweet little ones and striving to meet their individual needs.

[Kailash]

I’ve only seen #boymom from my friends who have all boys. Same with #girlmom. It never struck me as stereotyping but maybe I’m just oblivious.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I hope Jessa is smart enough to realize that she will have to make a lot of changes as a mom if she keeps pumping out kid after kid after kid. 

I said this on another thread, but I think all the fundie moms were probably decent parents when they only had 2. Zoo was a totally different parent when she had 4 kids compared to now. I’m sure Kelly and Michelle gave their oldest children a good amount of personal attention when she only had a few. 

I’m curious to see how Jessa parents when she has 10. That’s the real test. Actually I hope she never makes it to 10. But if she does, she will probably parent very differently.

[VelociRapture]

9 hours ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

I don’t believe Jessa is the mom we need to worry about at all. From everything she’s shown, and it all seems genuine, she’s extremly loving and gentle with her children. She was a “naughty” kid herself and was probably often punished by her parents. I don’t think she’s using God or whippings of any sort to  punish or invoke fear in her children. She likely learned not to use physical punishment from her upbringing. She may be uneducated, I don’t think she blindly follows her mother and fathers parenting styles. If you were talking about Jill, worry away. Just my thoughts on it. 

Bolded for importance - most of what we know is edited by either TLC or the family. Jessa is pretty savvy when it comes to social media and appears capable of learning from past public missteps.* We honestly can’t make judgements either way based just off what Jessa chooses to show online, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she isn’t exactly as she portrays herself as a mother.

(That’s not a knock against Jessa either because most people aren’t exactly as they portray themselves via social media.)

I like to think that she’s trying to do better than how she was raised, but I’m not exactly willing to give any Duggar the benefit of the doubt if they remain entrenched in the cult. 

*ETA: Learning from past public missteps is not saying that she had corrected the behavior itself, but that she’s simply smart enough to know not to share it publicly. Unlike Jill, who simply has no filter or awareness of what not to share publicly.

12 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I hope Jessa is smart enough to realize that she will have to make a lot of changes as a mom if she keeps pumping out kid after kid after kid. 

I said this on another thread, but I think all the fundie moms were probably decent parents when they only had 2. Zoo was a totally different parent when she had 4 kids compared to now. I’m sure Kelly and Michelle gave their oldest children a good amount of personal attention when she only had a few. 

I’m curious to see how Jessa parents when she has 10. That’s the real test. Actually I hope she never makes it to 10. But if she does, she will probably parent very differently.

I love autocorrect. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I love autocorrect

It’s not autocorrect

I always call her Zoo. Probably because her life is like a Zoo. I will admit I probably have the strongest dislike for her out of all the fundies. I guess starving and beating babies will make you hate someone you don’t even know.

[VelociRapture]

Just now, JermajestyDuggar said:

It’s not autocorrect

I always call her Zoo. Probably because her life is like a Zoo. I will admit I probably have the strongest dislike for her out of all the fundies. I guess starving and beating babies will make you hate someone you don’t even know.

Just to be clear: my laughing reaction was over the fact that you purposely call her that, not because I find beating and starving babies amusing. I’ve read next to nothing about Zsu, mostly because the little I do know makes me concerned I wouldn’t be able to emotionally handle it. She’s a nasty piece of work. 

[emmeline]

Never thought I'd have much in common with a Duggar parent, but there you go - both Jessa and I are on the "nursing toddlers to sleep" bandwagon. That was my favourite (and my most reliable) tool for a long time! My toddler fed to sleep for every sleep (barring car trips) until he was about 20 months old. 

I'm not sure if the timing works, but possibly Spurgeon went off breastfeeding because she was in the very early stages of pregnancy with Henry. Pregnancy can affect supply and the hormones can affect the taste, either or both of which can make kids fussy. (My older boy, on the other hand, wasn't phased at all - nursed throughout my pregnancy with his brother and is still going!) Either way I'm glad for her that her breastfeeding relationship with Henry is continuing the way she obviously wants it to. 

[Illmarryyoujana]

34 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Bolded for importance - most of what we know is edited by either TLC or the family. Jessa is pretty savvy when it comes to social media and appears capable of learning from past public missteps.* We honestly can’t make judgements either way based just off what Jessa chooses to show online, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she isn’t exactly as she portrays herself as a mother.

(That’s not a knock against Jessa either because most people aren’t exactly as they portray themselves via social media.)

I like to think that she’s trying to do better than how she was raised, but I’m not exactly willing to give any Duggar the benefit of the doubt if they remain entrenched in the cult. 

*ETA: Learning from past public missteps is not saying that she had corrected the behavior itself, but that she’s simply smart enough to know not to share it publicly. Unlike Jill, who simply has no filter or awareness of what not to share publicly.

I love autocorrect. 

I’m going off of her social media, which as I said I feel is genuine. I think she’s a conservative baptist who has chosen to maintain a relationship with her family. I don’t think that she’s part of the belief her parents raised her in and thus not in a cult. 

[singsingsing]

22 minutes ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

I’m going off of her social media, which as I said I feel is genuine. I think she’s a conservative baptist who has chosen to maintain a relationship with her family. I don’t think that she’s part of the belief her parents raised her in and thus not in a cult. 

I'm curious what it is about her social media that makes you think that. In what ways has she showed that she's moved away from her parents' beliefs?

[Carm_88]

I don't think we necessarily follow our parents examples. Maybe if we have loving, wonderful parents we do. If I ever have kids, I won't be like my Mom. I also agree that Ben seems to be a softer parent than most of the fundie males that we see. He seems to be very hands on and I can't imagine him smacking a toddler. Maybe I am completely off base, but as parents Jessa and Ben seem to be very easy going. 

[Daisy0322]

1 hour ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

I’m going off of her social media, which as I said I feel is genuine. I think she’s a conservative baptist who has chosen to maintain a relationship with her family. I don’t think that she’s part of the belief her parents raised her in and thus not in a cult. 

I agree that from her social media she seems just like any other conservative Christian parent that I know. Who know if that's the reality or not. 

[SamiKatz]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

It’s not autocorrect

I always call her Zoo. Probably because her life is like a Zoo. I will admit I probably have the strongest dislike for her out of all the fundies. I guess starving and beating babies will make you hate someone you don’t even know.

Zoo is definitely the worst, but Jill Rodriguez is a very close second.  Her behaviour is reprehensible.  Although like the other Jill, she doesn't seem to be savvy enough regarding her public postings, I'm sure other fundy parents (or just parents), are just as bad.

[Mama Mia]

It’s interesting to me, to see with my own adult kids, the ways they are similar with their parenting methods - and the ways they differ. They are all really good parents ( if I’m being honest with myself - better than me in many, many areas - but so far they have small families - it really does make a difference !) 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it would be pretty unusual for a parent in Arkansas to NEVER spank, ever. But there is a huge difference, in my view, and a lot of gray in between - from a smack as a child runs into the street or reaches for the stove and the ritualized abuse of the Pearls. Even the public schools in that state still implement paddling - recently for teens who walked out of class protesting gun violence. 

 All of my kids with kids have varying priorities and methods and strengths and hot-buttons. The one who is the most patient, intentional, reasoned parent overall was the one who used cry-it-out because she wasn’t able to function at work with no sleep. One who co-slept and breastfed until 2 is also a yeller who spanks occasionally, but is also very affectionate and will move hell or high water to get her kids what they need. There are lots of other differences among the other kids in how they parent. 

I think Jessa seems like a really, really good parent. So does Ben, which is just as important. While she wasn’t into being a sister mom, I think being around a bazillion toddlers growing up gave her a lot of insight and experience into what’s just a phase, and not take it all to seriously. Now that I think of it - it kind of gives her that feeling you get as a grandparent - it’s easier ( most days !) if you’ve already been through it. As she said in her post - the days are long, but the years are short.

 

[neurogirl]

I promise I'm not becoming a Seewald leghumper, but in this picture Ben is giving me desires that cannot be righteously fulfilled. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

14 minutes ago, neurogirl said:

I promise I'm not becoming a Seewald leghumper, but in this picture Ben is giving me desires that cannot be righteously fulfilled. 

I don’t find him attractive but he has seemed less affected by allergies in pictures lately. That helps because I would often be distracted by his red eyes that looked like he was so miserable. 

[Illmarryyoujana]

3 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I'm curious what it is about her social media that makes you think that. In what ways has she showed that she's moved away from her parents' beliefs?

Well the most awful parts of her parents beliefs are how they raised and abused their children.  I don’t feel that she’s raising her kids the same way. I do still think she’s a conservative baptist in her beliefs, but I don’t think she’s quiverful or a fundamentalist in the way we talk about on this site. Maybe others will disagree with me, but I do believe there’s a difference between straight fundie and a southern baptist.